TDs looking after themselves

bijapos wrote: »

Being more honest than FF stilll doesn't make FG honest, not by a long shot, in fact they are still a pack of liars well and truly in the pockets of developers. Being a little bit better than one of the most appalling parties in Western European politics is nothing to be proud of, fact is FG could be a lot better if they wanted, but they choose not to.

And no they were not honest during the elections, they were utterly dishonest, everything from national policies "not another red cent" to god awful parish pump politics from the future Taoiseach "maintaining services at Roscommon hospital". And let's not forget their proposed reforms on party funding, political reform etc or promises to implement findings of the Mahon tribunal.

A pile of bollix, I'm just glad I stuck them at the bottom of the ballot along with FF.

I wasn't comparing them against just Fianna Fail. Sinn Fein are probably the second biggest crowd of liars in the Houses of Government at this moment in time, just behind Fianna Fail.

I never said they didn't mislead during the election either, a lot of what they promised and said they would do - they have. The 'Not another red cent' was a prime example. A lot of what the government have implemented in the budgets, Labour highlighted during the election and said they would put a stop to it. Remember all those newspaper adverts?

The Roscommon Hospital appears to be more lack of information than just being a broken promise. I really cant see them being stupid enough to make a blatant lie several times over knowing they would go back on it and knowing they could (and have) lost an electoral area and a TD. It appears when they were in office they saw the problem fully and had all the data to hand and knew there was no choice but to close it.

mountai

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Properties occupied by the state are exempt from rates. Presumably that's the reason. If they were liable they'd be claiming it back in expenses anyway. Looks like a non-story.

WRONG !!! ---- If a property is leased to a state body (thus occupied by the State) it is NOT exempt from new rates .

Biggins wrote: »

Are you serious?

You haven't heard about the various antics of our Minister for Health for example or the questions that now hang over the head of Phil Hogan in his own local constituency about planing permission being given after been refused clear-cut twice before he got involved apparently - and that just two examples in the last two weeks!

There are many others that are involved in similar antics in Fine Gael alone presently.
One of the most honest parties currently in government?
Either someone is leading you astray, having a laugh or quite simply not keeping you informed.

Did I say everything was going swimmingly without problems or questionable actions?

The Minister of Health, regardless of who is in that position, is a political hot potato that is and will always be the target of a witch hunt. There appears to be serious questions over how he handles various tasks within office. Its the biggest issue facing the government but nobody has been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt he wasn't acting in the best interests - even Sinn Fein touched on the subject but only under Dail protection so they couldn't be touched.

As for Phil Hogan - what exactly are you referring to? I can't recall anything significant in the past two weeks and the above was a story knocking around ages now, not just in the past two weeks.

Either way, the above example, all you can show me is Ministers looking after their own constituencies - parish pump politics. Nothing of such huge significance that it could bring down the government or result in individual resignations. Parish pump politics is an electorate problem also - these TDs wont have a chance of being (re) elected without looking after their own back yard while in office.

Even in the houses of government, they are probably one of the more honest parties - Sinn Fein have proven to be far from it, and we all know Fianna Fails record dates centuries and not just a recent shocker. They are far from perfect, they could be doing things a fair bit differently, but a considerable number of policy implementations and the severity of the budget and economic woes well well known and warned prior to the election.

bijapos

Sully wrote: »

I wasn't comparing them against just Fianna Fail. Sinn Fein are probably the second biggest crowd of liars in the Houses of Government at this moment in time, just behind Fianna Fail.

Doesn't change the fact that FG are a blatantly dishonest party. They could be honest. They choose to behave otherwise.

I never said they didn't mislead during the election either, a lot of what they promised and said they would do - they have. The 'Not another red cent' was a prime example. A lot of what the government have implemented in the budgets, Labour highlighted during the election and said they would put a stop to it. Remember all those newspaper adverts?

We're talking about FG here, they made a lot pf promisies that they never implemented and that they have no intention of ever implementing. That's called lies, that's being dishonest.

The Roscommon Hospital appears to be more lack of information than just being a broken promise. I really cant see them being stupid enough to make a blatant lie several times over knowing they would go back on it and knowing they could (and have) lost an electoral area and a TD. It appears when they were in office they saw the problem fully and had all the data to hand and knew there was no choice but to close it.

All the info on Roscommon hospital was clearly out in the open before the election, Enda Kenny made a promise to maintain services for the sole rewason of short term gaining votes, when he and the dogs on the street knew that services there were to be cut back. It was a blatant dishonest act by Kenny. The hospital is not closed btw, what they did was shut down A&E, this in a farming area, the most dangerous industry in the country.

bijapos wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that FG are a blatantly dishonest party. They could be honest. They choose to behave otherwise.

I wouldn't call them a 'blatantly dishonest party'. Far from it.

We're talking about FG here, they made a lot pf promisies that they never implemented and that they have no intention of ever implementing. That's called lies, that's being dishonest.

They also made a lot more promises they have implemented.

All the info on Roscommon hospital was clearly out in the open before the election, Enda Kenny made a promise to maintain services for the sole rewason of short term gaining votes, when he and the dogs on the street knew that services there were to be cut back. It was a blatant dishonest act by Kenny. The hospital is not closed btw, what they did was shut down A&E, this in a farming area, the most dangerous industry in the country.

Incorrect. What is public knowledge and what is known behind government buildings is different. This is why opposition parties pre-budget submissions used to be laughed at by Fianna Fail - they didn't work and that was because what was in the public domain wasn't the full extent of the problem. Parties should get access to costings by the Dept. of Finance for their pre-budget submissions to help get a good idea of the problem - some parties to this day wont bother (Sinn Fein and their Wealth Tax).

Sully wrote: »

Did I say everything was going swimmingly without problems or questionable actions?

The Minister of Health, regardless of who is in that position, is a political hot potato that is and will always be the target of a witch hunt. There appears to be serious questions over how he handles various tasks within office. Its the biggest issue facing the government but nobody has been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt he wasn't acting in the best interests - even Sinn Fein touched on the subject but only under Dail protection so they couldn't be touched.

As for Phil Hogan - what exactly are you referring to? I can't recall anything significant in the past two weeks and the above was a story knocking around ages now, not just in the past two weeks.

Either way, the above example, all you can show me is Ministers looking after their own constituencies - parish pump politics. Nothing of such huge significance that it could bring down the government or result in individual resignations. Parish pump politics is an electorate problem also - these TDs wont have a chance of being (re) elected without looking after their own back yard while in office.

Even in the houses of government, they are probably one of the more honest parties - Sinn Fein have proven to be far from it, and we all know Fianna Fails record dates centuries and not just a recent shocker. They are far from perfect, they could be doing things a fair bit differently, but a considerable number of policy implementations and the severity of the budget and economic woes well well known and warned prior to the election.

Knowing just how much is going on by FG in cronyism and corruption since they got into power alone - I totally disagree with you about just how honest they are in government.
I also disagree that SF (although no saints) are second in line as the biggest liars around.

...And regards the latest Phil Hogan antics, I'm not going on about his letter involving Travellers, I'm not going on about his shutting down of 6 planning inquires, I'm on about his involvement in reversing planning permission for a building that very many didn't want.
I would politely suggest further reading and research.

bijapos

Incorrect. What is public knowledge and what is known behind government buildings is different. This is why opposition parties pre-budget submissions used to be laughed at by Fianna Fail - they didn't work and that was because what was in the public domain wasn't the full extent of the problem. Parties should get access to costings by the Dept. of Finance for their pre-budget submissions to help get a good idea of the problem - some parties to this day wont bother (Sinn Fein and their Wealth Tax).

Incorrect yourself. All parties had access to DoF costings in Autumn 2010, this was one of the forst times it was ever done. Kenny and FG knew what they were on about, they also have control over the budget, the reason to shut down the A&E in Roscommon was budgetary, no other reason.

Biggins wrote: »

Knowing just how much is going on by FG in cronyism and corruption since they got into power alone - I totally disagree with you about just how honest they are in government.

Do enlighten me further as to their scandalous behaviour while in government. I'm surprised no opposition party has tabled a motion of no confidence if they are as bad as you claim.

I also disagree that SF (although no saints) are second in line as the biggest liars around.

The same party who is against water & property charges in the South, yet happily implements them a few miles North?

The same party who is against the EU/IMF (a foreign body) ordering the Irish government about, but happily lets the UK government dictate to them a few miles up North?

The same party who is against austerity and claims it doesn't work, in the South, but happily implements it up North?

The same party which claims a wealth tax is the solution to all our problems yet wont get it costed by the Dept. of Finance to see if it would actually work?

The same party which wants to raid our pension reserve fund yet is furious when the government does likewise?

The same party which gives out about expenses, yet has some of the highest expenses claims?

The same party which gives out about TDs wages, yet draws down the full wage?

The same party which doesn't want to admit that that their leader is a former IRA leader and likewise when they had a candidate for the Presidency, didn't want to admit to his involvement in the IRA?

The same party which has a TD that is linked to numerous murders as he was a bomb maker for the IRA, admits to be doing so and the party defends him saying that while he made bombs for the IRA he doesn't have blood on his hands? And when the going got tough, they deflected with a well timed press release knocking the government?

Christ, I could keep going here and I haven't even touched how they are getting on up North and the scandals they have been hit with. Sitting it the opposition seats and preaching to the people how things would be different if they were in power, yet they do the exact same as the government do anyway when in power up North?

Its sickening.

Sully wrote: »

I'm surprised no opposition party has tabled a motion of no confidence if they are as bad as you claim.

I'm surprised you didn't even know that one had taken place: http://www.thejournal.ie/no-confidence-dail-vote-713313-Dec2012/

Sinn Fein CERTAINLY has it problems and has answers to give - but perhaps no more so then the current corrupt government in power.

http://www.valoff.ie/doc/ValuationAct2001.pdf

bijapos wrote: »

Incorrect yourself. All parties had access to DoF costings in Autumn 2010, this was one of the forst times it was ever done. Kenny and FG knew what they were on about, they also have control over the budget, the reason to shut down the A&E in Roscommon was budgetary, no other reason.

Considering no other party wants to re-open it or touch the hot topic, its safe to say it was more then budgetary. The locals don't even believe that - many believe Kenny did it to get at their local TD for going against him. Many others felt that the hospital was very quiet anyway and wasn't exactly needed.

Besides, The Health Information and Quality Authority had a report done that recommended the closure.

Chips Lovell

mountai wrote: »

WRONG !!! ---- If a property is leased to a state body (thus occupied by the State) it is NOT exempt from new rates .

(3) Subject to section 16, relevant property, being a building or part of a building, land or a waterway or a harbour directly occupied by the State (including any land or building occupied by any Depart- ment or office of State, the Defence Forces or the Garda Sı ́ocha ́na or used as a prison or place of detention), shall not be rateable.

Biggins wrote: »

I'm surprised you didn't even know that one had taken place: http://www.thejournal.ie/no-confidence-dail-vote-713313-Dec2012/

Sinn Fein CERTAINLY has it problems and has answers to give - but perhaps no more so then the current corrupt government in power.

I don't take much notice of what Sinn Fein propose and that was more to do with budgets than the government. They wont be elected into government so they are just doing it for the publicity and not for the people. More spin.

Sinn Fein has a lot more to give than Fine Gael or the other parties, even Fianna Fail, that's for sure.

byhookorbycrook

Hmmm, Sinn Féin and health issues...flight to America, anyone?

bijapos

Sully wrote: »

Considering no other party wants to re-open it or touch the hot topic, its safe to say it was more then budgetary. The locals don't even believe that - many believe Kenny did it to get at their local TD for going against him. Many others felt that the hospital was very quiet anyway and wasn't exactly needed.

Besides, The Health Information and Quality Authority had a report done that recommended the closure.

Firstly the TD (Denis Naughton) resigned AFTER the decision was made to shut it, if however as you say Kenny did shut it to get back at a TD then the man should resign as Taoiseach. if he is going to use a hospital closure to get back at someone he is clearly too petty for such a position.

Secondly, neither the hospital nor the A&E is quiet,, both were busy even tough services in Roscommon hospital have been pared back over many years.

Thirdly, again I repeat it was A&E that was shut, not the hospital. The hospital, minus the vital A&E unit is open.

Fourthly, the HIQA report, (which did not necessarily recommend the closure of Roscommon) was made months before the GE. Here's a link

bijapos wrote: »

Firstly the TD (Denis Naughton) resigned AFTER the decision was made to shut it, if however as you say Kenny did shut it to get back at a TD then the man should resign as Taoiseach. if he is going to use a hospital closure to get back at someone he is clearly too petty for such a position.

I'm well aware he resigned after. I never said Kenny shut it to get back at him, I said that is what some people think. Its the conspiracy.

Sully wrote: »

I don't take much notice of what Sinn Fein propose and that was more to do with budgets than the government. They wont be elected into government so they are just doing it for the publicity and not for the people. More spin.

Sinn Fein has a lot more to give than Fine Gael or the other parties, even Fianna Fail, that's for sure.

Your right in one thing - Sf won't get into government this generation around it seems.

FG and FF are already quietly looking to amalgamate at the next election to keep them out.
This, despite a number of FG members preparing to jump ship, quitting at the next general election (Fergus O'Dowd is one), and perhaps to cover their ass make up for those leaving, knowing they might not get re-elected anyway.

Just a few sample situations FG and Enda should answer for, big or small:

* It’s been exposed that Enda Kenny told the Department of Finance to bend the rules on pay rates for advisors so that his former advisor Ciaran Conlon could be awarded a pay increase of 35 thousand euros.

* The Irish Fine Gael and Labour government cabinet rewarded themselves on October 18th 2011 with another perk! They can now have the luxury of being able to drive on bus lanes!

* "We Will Not Introduce A Rise In Student Fees" - Pre-election Fine Gael 2010... but... A Rise In Student Fees!" Post election Fine Gael - 2011

* Noonan: ‘I never promised I’d burn senior bondholders’ 15th November 2011... Really?
Noonan intends to burn AIB, Irish Nationwide Bondholders 15th June 2011
http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/noonan-intends-to-burn-aib-irish-nationwide-bondholders/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/137/captureowb.jpg/

* More lies? Only after THREE days in power the new government has got off to a start Fianna Fail members would be proud of! Mr Kenny appointed 15 junior minister - after promising exactly two years ago today to reduce the number of posts to 12. Enda Kenny named the 15 junior ministers - nine for Fine Gael and six for Labour.
Kenny appointed the same number of junior ministers as the outgoing government on €130,000-per-year each. Kenny admitted he had made the commitment two years ago, but used an excuse that it had not been included in Fine Gael's general election policy or the coalition's Programme for Government - so they could get away with backtracking on their own words to the people of Ireland!

Link: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/kenny-reneges-on-pledge-to-reduce-ministers-2575551.html

* Varadkar said that not another “red cent” would be put into the banks - but wait... the Central Bank announced in March 2011 that the banks would require €24bn. €19bn of this met by the taxpayer July 2011. Another 17/18 BILLION going to the banks in bailout in 2012! Its 18 Billion for 2013.

More lies?

* Sell the EBS
During the election Fine Gael pledged to sell EBS. What happened? FG made it happen that despite previous words EBS has now been merged with AIB instead.

More lies?

* FG 5 point plan: No new taxes including no income tax increases.

Minister Noonan: “I am not going to rule out any tax initiative, or any tax increase or any tax reduction.”
Universal Social Charge NOW INCREASED TO €132+ A MONTH

* They opposed the public sector pension levy – “It is a crude and unfair system.” (Brendan Howlin)
Now they won’t rule out more cuts to public service pay.

* The Programme for Govt states: “We will legislate to end upward only rent reviews for existing leases.”

What happened?

More lies?

* FG Manifesto: Promised a new “powerful consumer champion”, giving it “additional powers – by constitutional change if necessary – to break up public and private sector monopolies and cartels.”

Still waiting...

* The Programme for Government clearly states “we will introduce the necessary legal and constitutional provisions to ban corporate donations to political parties.”

Corporate donations continue and Enda Kenny has confirmed that there will be no constitutional ban put to the people.

* There will be no more “golden handshakes” for public servants that have failed to deliver.
...Big payoffs for senior civil servants continue.

* FG had previously promised to reduce the number of TDs by 20
The Electoral Act proposed a cut of as little as 6 TDs.

* The Programme for Government stated “We will maintain social welfare rates”
What happened?

Want more lies?

* FG pledged they would cut the number of junior Ministers to 12.
What happened? Once elected they appointed 15 Junior Ministers.

* Fine Gael pledged to abolish 145 quangos in their document Reinventing Government.

What REALLY happened?

By end Oct 2011, they had abolished 5, but had created 8.

* Enda Kenny, July 2010: “I do not accept the Government’s guillotining of Bills in any shape or form.”

...But by November 2011 they had guillotined almost a dozen Bills.

* Enda Kenny promised to direct all Ministers to focus entirely on their new portfolios in the first 100 days and completely avoid constituency work.

However, Kenny himself repeatedly broke this promise with dozens of appointments in Mayo every week - and what about Phil Hogan, O'Reilly and many others?

More lies?

* Ministerial advisors will be subject to salary caps

What has happened and continues to? Most Ministers’ advisors have breached the cap.

* FG and Lab Manifestos: They promised vetting of appointments to state boards by the Oireachtas.

What has happened?
Party political appointments have been made, without any oversight or transparency. In one very simple example of many available, in October 2011, they appointed the former head of AIB Investment Management as head of the New Era quango, without revealing her pay or conditions.

If you want more lies and topics which Fine Gael needs to answer for - I have more.

Fine Gael being the most honest government?
Your having a laugh!

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

http://www.valoff.ie/doc/ValuationAct2001.pdf

what has a political party office got to do with the state? im pretty sure nothing.

if i start a political party in the morning and decide to run for office, will my headquarters be exempt from rates?

Biggins wrote: »

Your right in one thing - Sf won't get into government this generation around it seems.

FG and FF are already quietly looking to amalgamate at the next election to keep them out.

Sinn Fein wont get into government through no fault of their own. Nothing to do with any other party. Plus, there is nothing to suggest that FF & FG are secretly looking at amalgamating never mind being in a coalition together (which would be the peoples choice).

This, despite a number of FG members preparing to jump ship, quitting at the next general election (Fergus O'Dowd is one), and perhaps to cover their ass make up for those leaving, knowing they might not get re-elected anyway.

More nonsense I see. You say a "number of" but only name one. They are in government less than two years so I doubt anybody is even thinking of the next election, because nobody knows what will happen between now and then. They are still very popular in the polls so even if they were, there are no grounds for them to worry.

I never heard O'Dowd was retiring, could you link me to that source?

Just a few sample situations FG and Enda should answer for, big or small

Whereas on the other hand, I could point you to several promises not reneged upon and good work done by the government.

Sully wrote: »

Sinn Fein wont get into government through no fault of their own. Nothing to do with any other party.

They could if they increased their numbers along with independents and maybe with another party.
Buts thats theory - we know they won't.

Sully wrote: »

I never heard O'Dowd was retiring, could you link me to that source?

I cannot presently as its only emerged at a local level - there is more to his reasons but they cannot be reported here as it would be inappropriate.
I shall PM you - and I think you will understand why.

Sully wrote: »

Whereas on the other hand, I could point you to several promises not reneged upon and good work done by the government.

any good works done by any government does not cancel out their many lies.
This applies for the present government as does the past ones.

The fact is that FG (in my and many eyes) are just as full of cronyism, lies and have many equal questions to answer.

Biggins wrote: »

They could if they increased their numbers along with independents and maybe with another party.
Buts thats theory - we know they won't.

That would be a very unstable government because I don't think many independents would go into government with Sinn Fein for a start. It would also mean that FG/FF/Lab had **** all seats to form a government themselves.

Sinn Fein would need to have a fantastic election and as it stands, that's not going to happen. Not in my lifetime it would appear anyway, the polls gave a little hope but it didn't last.

I cannot presently as its only emerged at a local level - there is more to his reasons but they cannot be reported here as it would be inappropriate.
I shall PM you - and I think you will understand why.

Personal reasons are hardly cause to use as a stick to show the government TDs are already jumping ship.

any good works done by any government does not cancel out their many lies.
This applies for the present government as does the past ones.

The fact is that FG (in my and many eyes) are just as full of cronyism, lies and have many equal questions to answer.

You will never have a party that will get elected and wont break a promise. Ever. Will the good outweigh the bad? I think in many areas the points you make about broken promises were not that bad.

- College fees going up were unavoidable. Even the USI wont offer a credible solution to the problem

- Cant see the EU allowing Ireland stick the two fingers to the bondholders.

- Paycaps will be broken - silly idea anyway. People coming from the private sector are taking a pay cut to work in the public service so to get them in there has to be a compromise.

- Junior Ministers had their salary cut, and stopped from going overseas on St. Patrick's Day. Never going to be fully scrapped or brought much further down than they are.

A lot of the points you raised could be argued back with a valid point. Should they have mislead people by saying so? No.

Sully wrote: »

...Sinn Fein would need to have a fantastic election and as it stands, that's not going to happen. Not in my lifetime it would appear anyway, the polls gave a little hope but it didn't last.

No argument there.

Sully wrote: »

Personal reasons are hardly cause to use as a stick to show the government TDs are already jumping ship.

A number of FG TD's will not be returning.
I know this as I'm in contact with some direct and through others who keep me very politically aware as well as through my own activities.
They wish to keep their names presently out of the press and we must respect that.
I disagree with them politically but I respect their right to privacy.

Sully wrote: »

You will never have a party that will get elected and wont break a promise. Ever. Will the good outweigh the bad? I think in many areas the points you make about broken promises were not that bad.

Not that bad?
Well the voters wiil again get to decide at some stage what they think.

PC CDROM

"What do we expect, in a country where the monkeys are in charge of the bananas?"

mountai

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

http://www.valoff.ie/doc/ValuationAct2001.pdf

Current legislation changes this. Under "Exemptions" it stated that where a State Body has a "Vested interest " in a property its exempt. But a lease does not convey a Vested interest according to the Revenue.

Bullseye1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Properties occupied by the state are exempt from rates. Presumably that's the reason. If they were liable they'd be claiming it back in expenses anyway. Looks like a non-story.

These are not state owned properties but party owned properties. It's my understanding that each party makes tax returns each year so why shouldn't the properties they employ for party business be exempt.

mountai

Bullseye1 wrote: »

These are not state owned properties but party owned properties. It's my understanding that each party makes tax returns each year so why shouldn't the properties they employ for party business be exempt.

Why should they?? What pressing needs do they have over charity shops etc??

Bullseye1 wrote: »

These are not state owned properties but party owned properties. It's my understanding that each party makes tax returns each year so why shouldn't the properties they employ for party business be exempt.

all the other business make tax returns too, including charity shops. they have no exemptions. why special treatment for political parties?

another interesting part from the indo article refers to the "stony silence" from the revenue. I reckon that means they cant give a logical answer so choose to say nothing. only revenue could use that tact and get away with it.

dxhound2005

When were offices used by politicians subject to commercial rates? Thats right never. So why is this newspaper regurgitating the same story every few years trying to give the opposite impression. It looks like this time it is at the behest of the charity industry. Anyway who is supposed to be "outraged".

For anyone who wants to inform themselves about this issue properly, this is the most recent legislation which would have updated much older law. The list of expempted properties is in Schedule 4.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0013/print.html#sched4

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When were offices used by politicians subject to commercial rates? Thats right never. So why is this newspaper regurgitating the same story every few years trying to give the opposite impression. It looks like this time it is at the behest of the charity industry. Anyway who is supposed to be "outraged".

For anyone who wants to inform themselves about this issue properly, this is the most recent legislation which would have updated much older law. The list of expempted properties is in Schedule 4.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0013/print.html#sched4

mate, you probably are correct. but i didnt know that TDs offices were rate free. i am surprised by that, and im glad its been brought to my attention.

now heres a question, why the **** are they rate free?

dxhound2005

emo72 wrote: »

mate, you probably are correct. but i didnt know that TDs offices were rate free. i am surprised by that, and im glad its been brought to my attention.

now heres a question, why the **** are they rate free?

If they were being used a shop to sell stuff and make a profit they wouldn't be. The clue is in the term commercial rates.