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Is this viewpoint racist...or understandable?

average hero

(Disclaimer - I use the term 'black' as only a descriptive term as I do not know who comes from what country in the below scenario. I use it as affectionately as I do the term 'white'. Mods please feel free to close if this thread gets out of hand or incites bad taste)

Long story short, I get a lift home from work with one of my work colleagues from Dublin City Centre every night we are both in work together. Tonight, we were on the way home when a taxi driver pulled out and nearly smashed into our car. My mate got out of the car and shouted 'What the hell are you thinking?' at the driver before receiving a loud 'F*** off' from the occupant of the taxi. Upon returning to our car, he stated 'those black taxi drivers....it's always them'. This surprised me.

Upon asking him his opinion of them, he described the time when his car was scratched (twice) and crashed into (once), all by black taxi drivers. I have been present in two of these occasion. If you are to stand in the main drag in the Dublin 2 area, you will witness some atrocious driving from taxi drivers who are black.

We are both extremely friendly with different black guys who come into the place where we work, so he doesn't seem racist, also he works alongside African, Asian and South American colleagues too.

He basically does not like black taxi drivers at all (due to past experiences, and interactions with) - is he racist in saying so?

I am on the fence as to whether he has a point, I am giving it deeper thought before subscribing to an opinion.

TL;DR - Work colleague has bad experiences with black taxi drivers (as opposed to black work colleagues), therefore has low opinion of them (the taxi drivers) - is this racist?

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kneemos

john47832 wrote: »

Good, as you will most likely find on here, motorists dont usually like some categories of people on the road, and with good reason.
Category 1 - Taxi drivers (regardless of color, religion or sexual preference)

The op's friend doesn't like them because they're black taxi drivers.

Gauss

Ed Winchester wrote: »

What did I say I didn't understand? A ten year old could see that's not what I said. But feel free to rattle off any old stuff and say it isn't quantum physics to make yourself feel clever.

You said there is no such thing as understandable racism, if you can't understand racism you are a simpleton.

RUSTEDCORE

Ed Winchester wrote: »

To suggest that it's understandable would be excusing it. I don't think there's any excuse for racism in this day and age. In my opinion, it isn't understandable racism. It's just racism.

saying people from a rural county like farming may be considered prejudice

But if I go set up a poll n ow in the farming section with 2 for dubliners and 2 for rural county denizens each asking do you like farming yes or no

disregarding the fact that its the farming section do you think dublinerss would like it more that those from rural counties.

stop thinking that any generalistion is racist.....soon you will be giving out to me for stating that black people are not as pale as white people

RUSTEDCORE

dvpower wrote: »

In my personal experience, people who use red font are usually wrong.
Obviously this means you are wrong too.
A reasonable assumption, no?

It is without logic so not a good example but yes reasonable if you have the basis but as it is a point of debate it is up to you to form the opinion yourself and if you so wish attempt to prove me wrong

kneemos

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

He's p*ssed off with black taxi drivers because every time his car gets damaged, it's by a black taxi driver. How on earth is that racist? It's a fact. It would be racist if he said that every black person was a scumbag who tried to damage his car, but he didn't say that. I think people are way too quick to call racism when there isn't any. If he'd said, 'those bloody Wicklow drivers, it's always them', would you have been as outraged?

That's a specific group of people,if you said Nigerian drivers were bad drivers it may be a generalisation but not racist.

Ed Winchester

Gauss wrote: »

You said there is no such thing as understandable racism, if you can't understand racism you are a simpleton.

Are you serious? Or posting in your sleep?
Read that post back to yourself. If you still don't get it, let me know and I'll spell it out for you like I would to a ten year old.

I have to laugh at you suggesting I'm a simpleton after your last two posts here!

dvpower

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

He's p*ssed off with black taxi drivers because every time his car gets damaged, it's by a black taxi driver. How on earth is that racist? It's a fact.

He decides that the common denominator is that the drivers were black and that this had a bearing on their poor driving. What reasonable evidence is there that skin colour is any determinate of driving ability?

suicide_circus

dvpower wrote: »

In my personal experience, people who use red font are usually wrong.
Obviously this means you are wrong too.
A reasonable assumption, no?

no. you see, compiling and catagorising information which you collect through life experience is how you learn to determine whats what and form your opinions and safeguards - Except when it involves race or ethnicity - then this tried and tested rulebook is thrown out. If not, You are now a despicable human being.

dvpower

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

It is without logic so not a good example but yes reasonable if you have the basis but as it is a point of debate it is up to you to form the opinion yourself and if you so wish attempt to prove me wrong

What possible logic could there be that black people are bad drivers?

Gauss

Ed Winchester wrote: »

Are you serious? Or posting in your sleep?
Read that post back to yourself. If you still don't get it, let me know and I'll spell it out for you like I would to a ten year old.

I have to laugh at you suggesting I'm a simpleton after your last two posts here!

Listen you said racism isn't understandable, if you can't understand it you are a simpleton. Someone not understanding racism is on a par with not understanding addition. Point out any statement I made which you feel is wrong.

Racism occurs when someone discriminates based on race, race being the discriminant.

How can you not understand that sentence? Children can understand that.

dvpower

suicide_circus wrote: »

no. you see, compiling and catagorising information which you collect through life experience is how you learn to determine whats what and form your opinions and safeguards - Except when it involves race or ethnicity - then this tried and tested rulebook is thrown out. If not, You are now a despicable human being.

We'll d'uh - I was being rhetorical.

Ed Winchester

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

saying people from a rural county like farming may be considered prejudice

But if I go set up a poll n ow in the farming section with 2 for dubliners and 2 for rural county denizens each asking do you like farming yes or no

disregarding the fact that its the farming section do you think dublinerss would like it more that those from rural counties.

stop thinking that any generalistion is racist.....soon you will be giving out to me for stating that black people are not as pale as white people

Back up the cart there. When did I say any generalisation is racist. I haven't actually commented either way on the OPs particular case nor any other. So I'm not quite sure what you're driving at with that comment.

Gauss

dvpower wrote: »

What possible logic could there be that black people are bad drivers?

He saw a correlation, correlation doesn't imply causation. If every time you walk by someone in a red jacket they punch you it would be wise to avoid people in red jackets.

9959

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

saying people from a rural county like farming may be considered prejudice

But if I go set up a poll n ow in the farming section with 2 for dubliners and 2 for rural county denizens each asking do you like farming yes or no

disregarding the fact that its the farming section do you think dublinerss would like it more that those from rural counties.

stop thinking that any generalistion is racist.....soon you will be giving out to me for stating that black people are not as pale as white people

'black people are not as pale as white people', is a simple, useless statement of fact.

'black people are not as mannerly as white people', is a racist assumption.

'black taxi drivers are ruder than white taxi drivers', is a racist assumption.

Hope this helps.

Ed Winchester

Gauss wrote: »

Listen you said racism isn't understandable, if you can't understand it you are a simpleton. Someone not understanding racism is on a par with not understanding addition. Point out any statement I made which you feel is wrong.

Where did I say racism isn't understandable?

Ok, now pay attention.

I said, there's no such thing as understandable racism.

You seem to think I said, racism isn't understandable.

Can you see the difference between the two statements?

Now I won't resort to calling you a simpleton as you have called me. But I think you need to have a wee look at yourself, because you've made a bit of an eejit of yourself here.

dvpower

Gauss wrote: »

He saw a correlation, correlation doesn't imply causation. If every time you walk by someone in a red jacket they punch you it would be wise to avoid people in red jackets.

It would be utterly daft to avoid people in red jackets because anyone with a bit of sense knows that that couldn't be the proper common denominator.
Similarly, it is daft to blame poor driving on skin colour.

A more reasonable line of thought might go something like this:
1. Driver education in, say, Nigeria is poorer than here.
2. Nigerians are, on average, poorer drivers.
3. Avoid Nigerian drivers.

RUSTEDCORE

dvpower wrote: »

What possible logic could there be that black people are bad drivers?

go back and look at my links

even without those cientific facts there stands the logic that it is black taxi drivers that cause him problems.

If I had 2 alarm clocks 1 white 1 black and 4 times the black 1 made me late for work and the white gave me no problems there would be logical basis behind a dislike of the black 1

philologos

I think that the phrasing could have been a bit better. However, I don't think there's much wrong in noting that if there is a higher case of incidents involving taxi drivers from a particular part of the world to conclude that driving standards in X region of the world may be lower than in other parts of the world. That's just observation. One isn't saying that it is because of their race or ethnicity that their driving may be lacking, but that perhaps that driving standards in X region aren't as good as in Y region and as a result there are more incidents surrounding drivers from X region.

That's not racist at all. However, claiming that because driver X is black that this is the case is off. I think the OP's mate was trying to say the former and not the latter.

dvpower

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

go back and look at my links

even without those cientific facts there stands the logic that it is black taxi drivers that cause him problems.

If I had 2 alarm clocks 1 white 1 black and 4 times the black 1 made me late for work and the white gave me no problems there would be logical basis behind a dislike of the black 1

And it would be utterly daft to dislike black clocks in general.

RUSTEDCORE

9959 wrote: »

'black people are not as pale as white people', is a simple, useless statement of fact.

'black people are not as mannerly as white people', is a racist assumption.

'black taxi drivers are ruder than white taxi drivers', is a racist assumption.

Hope this helps.

you lack the intellect to comprehend my points
I suggest you either go to college or to a forum of pre schoolers

RUSTEDCORE

dvpower wrote: »

And it would be utterly daft to dislike black clocks in general.

ah but if 4 black clocks failed to work properly and 4 white clocks did would you not illogically based on past experience buy a white clock.

and alas my point is made

thank you for your help

Drkitkat

I will not get in a taxi anymore, if the driver is foreign. I have had too many bad experiences where they swear blind they know the address and then get lost.

[Deleted User]

kneemos wrote: »

That's a specific group of people,if you said Nigerian drivers were bad drivers it may be a generalisation but not racist.

Black Dublin taxi drivers are a specific group of people.

dvpower wrote: »

He decides that the common denominator is that the drivers were black and that this had a bearing on their poor driving. What reasonable evidence is there that skin colour is any determinate of driving ability?

No, that's not what he decided at all. I would imagine he meant that all/most of the black taxi drivers in Dublin are crap drivers. Not that they can't drive because of the colour of their skin, but that they come from somewhere with different driving standards. Almost all black taxi drivers in Dublin are African. He didn't say all the black people in the world were rubbish drivers, he was specifically talking about black Dublin taxi drivers. I love when people scream racism without considering the context or motivation behind the words.

Wibbs

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

One of the leading theories is that colder climates tend to select for higher intelligence. You simply need more brainpower to create more advanced clothing, tools and infrastructure in order to thrive in colder temperatures.

Eh slight problem with that going by history. Where did the first great civilisations kick off? Sweden, Britain, Russia? Nope. Mesopotamia, India, Egypt. All places not exactly known for being chilly. Hell ancient Greece wasn't exactly freezing(for most of the year). The climate model is spurious to me.

Extending it further back as some do and suggest successive ice age and the ability to survive in them may have driven more gene for brains over time? Looks alright on the surface, however a couple of problems with it. 1) Neandertals lived in such shifting climates for significantly longer than modern humans and though they were nowhere close to the lumbering apemen of previous thinking, they weren't knocking up ziggurats either and 2) such shifting climates also affected more southerly latitudes too and folks there would have had to contend and adapt to local climate changes.

So why does there appear on the surface to be "racial" differences in achievement? The dumb luck of geography and history and politics. No? Don't buy that? Let's go back to Mesopotamia. A couple of thousand years ago they made most of the rest of humanity look like dribblers. Today and for a good long while those areas have been backwaters of advancement. Same people. What changed? Culture mostly. Islam didn't help. It did at first, but then stagnated further advances, as did the empire that sprung up behind it. Empires are bad for brains, except at the start, with the odd burst of innovation later. China a classic example. An empire not a country. Has had huge leaps forward in the past, but then they stagnate. They had printing before Europe and did little with it. It goes through the middle east and they do little with it(the first Quran to be printed was printed in Russia). It gets to Europe and humanity sees one of the few information revolutions within a generation. You see similar with another Chinese innovation gunpowder. Loads of nation states are best for brains. Competition selects for brains and innovation. So Europe can thank it's lucky stars Rome fell when it did.

dvpower

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

ah but if 4 black clocks failed to work properly and 4 white clocks did would you not illogically based on past experience buy a white clock.

Unless you have some reason for believing that there is something about the colour of the paint that is effecting the clock, then, no, that would be quite mad.

But telling, that you would jump on the most outward and obvious sign of difference.

kneemos

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Black Dublin taxi drivers are a specific group of people.

No, that's not what he decided at all. I would imagine he meant that all/most of the black taxi drivers in Dublin are crap drivers. Not that they can't drive because of the colour of their skin, but that they come from somewhere with different driving standards. Almost all black taxi drivers in Dublin are African. He didn't say all the black people in the world were rubbish drivers, he was specifically talking about black Dublin taxi drivers. I love when people scream racism without considering the context or motivation behind the words.

Dublin taxi drivers are a specific group,black taxi drivers are a diverse group I'd imagine.

K-9

Cut out the personal sniping, there is no need for it.

Royale with Cheese

If he said all black people born and raised in Dublin are far worse drivers than white Dubliners he'd be a racist (the only difference between these two people really would be their skin colour). Saying that people from Nigeria (which is what he probably means here, although he's generalised them into just 'black' taxi drivers which is where the calls of racism probably stem from) are worse drivers than people from Dublin is something completely different. I've been to plenty of countries where I thought the locals drove a little erratically compared to back home, Italy for instance. Am I racist against Italians, is that even possible? There are cultural differences around the world, driving style is one of them. I was in Johannesburg over the summer, you should see how some of the taxi drivers drive over there. Again, am I now a racist for thinking that?

People tend to get far too worked up over this kind of thing, and become far more worried about being perceived as a racist than actually just arguing the point with some rational thinking. I remember someone telling me once that she was worried she was racist because she's not physically attracted to black people. I mean really, who gives a fúck who or what you're attracted to.

dvpower

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

No, that's not what he decided at all. I would imagine he meant that all/most of the black taxi drivers in Dublin are crap drivers. Not that they can't drive because of the colour of their skin, but that they come from somewhere with different driving standards. Almost all black taxi drivers in Dublin are African. He didn't say all the black people in the world were rubbish drivers, he was specifically talking about black Dublin taxi drivers.

I'd go along with that. Its a bit of a lazy generalisation, with racism not intended.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I love when people scream racism without considering the context or motivation behind the words.

Equally people should try to choose their words more carefully, so they don't appear to be racist.

[Deleted User]

kneemos wrote: »

Dublin taxi drivers are a specific group,black taxi drivers are a diverse group I'd imagine.

Black.Dublin.taxi.drivers.

If Dublin taxi drivers are a specific group, wouldn't you say black Dublin taxi drivers are an even more specific group?

That's the whole point, he's not saying all the black people in the world are out to damage his car. It's a specific situation.