Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] Poll Reset

donalg1 wrote: »

I simply stated that it is reckless of some to advise others what laws to break.

What you said was

donalg1 wrote: »

I simply have stated that there are some here who are not in the best position to be advising others to not pay a charge they dont have to pay themselves.

Which implies their opinion is less valid.... in your opinion.

donalg1 wrote: »

Ghandee you are not liable for the charge, regardless of whether or not you register for a waiver, if you register you are not liable if you dont register you are not liable, its extremely simple.

You are however liable to register.

Wether you are liable to the charge or not, you are still breaking the law by not registering.

Ghandee wrote: »

Sigh.....

Ok, I'll edit the post.

Quite a simple question.

Do you mean without the waiver what would it mean to you?

If that is what you mean well it wouldnt mean anything to you as you are not liable for it anyway.

Do you think the consequences for not registering are the same for you as they are for someone who is liable to pay it?

Slick50 wrote: »

What you said was

Which implies their opinion is less valid.... in your opinion.

No it implies that they are in no position to advise others how to spend
their money and what laws to break.

Slick50 wrote: »

Wether you are liable to the charge or not, you are still breaking the law by not registering.

Where have I said any different?

donalg1 wrote: »

Where have I said any different?

Your posts over the last few pages would suggest so... like the question below.

donalg1 wrote: »

If that is what you mean well it wouldnt mean anything to you as you are not liable for it anyway.Do you think the consequences for not registering are the same for you as they are for someone who is liable to pay it?

There would be very little difference if you fail to register, which is what the HHC was all about, not the "less than €2 a week".

Slick50 wrote: »

Your posts over the last few pages would suggest so... like the question below.There would be very little difference if you fail to register, which is what the HHC was all about, not the "less than €2 a week".

No failing to register for the waiver is completely different than failing to register to pay the HHC, as one costs you nothing whereas the other has cost €30 so far and could ultimately cost more. Plus those that havent paid are far more likely to be prosecuted than those that simply didnt register for the waiver.

So my question was a perfectly legitimate one, as the consequences for the two parties are completely different.

The Public Service is already funded through revenues collected. So, why ask people to pay 100 euro to have someone in the PS to put your details on a database?
Perhaps the Public Servants are seeking more money for more work? Which is not in the spirit of Benchmarking.
It is similar to the hangman asking you to buy your own rope.
Law, or not, I feel, as someone else once said, that it is morally wrong to tax my home.

pitkan wrote: »

The Public Service is already funded through revenues collected. So, why ask people to pay 100 euro to have someone in the PS to put your details on a database?
Perhaps the Public Servants are seeking more money for more work? Which is not in the spirit of Benchmarking.
It is similar to the hangman asking you to buy your own rope.
Law, or not, I feel, as someone else once said, that it is morally wrong to tax my home.

Yes the Public Service (or Local Authority) is funded in part by revenues collected as well as other sources, and it is these other sources that have dropped in recent years so more stable sources need to be introduced hence the introduction of property taxes and water charges.

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes the Public Service (or Local Authority) is funded in part by revenues collected as well as other sources, and it is these other sources that have dropped in recent years so more stable sources need to be introduced hence the introduction of property taxes and water charges.

The other sources being?

Chips Lovell

Borrowing

donalg1 wrote: »

No failing to register for the waiver is completely different than failing to register to pay the HHC, as one costs you nothing whereas the other has cost €30 so far and could ultimately cost more. Plus those that havent paid are far more likely to be prosecuted than those that simply didnt register for the waiver.

Not that different, both result in an incomplete database, which is what the government needs to be able to send an annual bill out to whoever is deemed liable in the future.

donalg1 wrote: »

So my question was a perfectly legitimate one, as the consequences for the two parties are completely different.

I don't think so, failing to register is what frustrates the whole thing. If you registered and refused to pay, they could soon sort that out. If enough people don't register, they are shooting in the dark, as has been born out with their most recent effort to "demand payment" from the dead, not liable and already payed.

pitkan wrote: »

The other sources being?

Commercial Rates, Motor Tax Receipts, Charges for Goods and Services

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Borrowing

Other taxes, that don't demand payment from those who can't afford it?

Slick50 wrote: »

Not that different, both result in an incomplete database, which is what the government needs to be able to send an annual bill out to whoever is deemed liable in the future.

I don't think so, failing to register is what frustrates the whole thing. If you registered and refused to pay, they could soon sort that out. If enough people don't register, they are shooting in the dark, as has been born out with their most recent effort to "demand payment" from the dead, not liable and already payed.

Yes by not registering you are making their life more difficult in that it is going to be harder for them to compile an accurate database, but again the consequence for not registering when not liable to pay is much different and less severe than not registering when you are liable to pay it.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Borrowing

We have to cut our cloth to our measurement.

A local Provincial paper carried a report las summer that the County Council's Government grant had been reduced byx millions and the County Council immediately blamed the non paying HHC people for this and they would have to cut back on services.
Don't get me wrong as I don't want to see anybody lose their job but, say for instance, should the County Council decide that they are not going to sweep the streets any more then the streets wont be swept but the street sweepers will still turn up for work each day and get paid for doing nothing. That's how the PS works.

donalg1 wrote: »

Commercial Rates, Motor Tax Receipts, Charges for Goods and Services

These all come under the heading of revenues.

pitkan wrote: »

These all come under the heading of revenues.

I am talking about the funding made up from tax revenues.

And if you are saying that the LA's are funded by the likes of Motor Tax Receipts, Charges for Goods and Services and Commercial Rates then I am sure you will realise that the levels of funding from these sources will have dramatically decreased in recent years. Which has meant that alternative sources have to be looked at, hence the domestic water charges and property tax.

donalg1 wrote: »

I am talking about the funding made up from tax revenues.

And if you are saying that the LA's are funded by the likes of Motor Tax Receipts, Charges for Goods and Services and Commercial Rates then I am sure you will realise that the levels of funding from these sources will have dramatically decreased in recent years. Which has meant that alternative sources have to be looked at, hence the domestic water charges and property tax.

Has the PS been reduced by a corresponding drop in staff?

Durin the 'boom' we had 50,000 on the live register. Was any 'dole' office shut? Was any staff made redundant or re-deployed?

pitkan wrote: »

Has the PS been reduced by a corresponding drop in staff?

The numbers in LA's have as far as I know, they have dropped to below the proposed numbers set out in the CPA. All temporary staff are gone across the PS and there have been mass retirements too, so yes I would imagine the staff levels have dropped.

Also just because the revenues have dropped doesnt mean that there is less staff required when talking about areas such as motor tax as there are still the same number of cars to be taxed its just the drop in revenue has come as a result of the carbon based tax bands, same can be said for commercial rates, you still need the same amount of staff there as before but with the recession the collection rates will no doubt be down.

The likes of planning will more than likely have seen a reduction in staffing numbers as they are no doubt less busy now than they were previously so all temp staff would have gone from every department with the surplus permanent staff form the likes of planning departments being redeployed to where they are needed within the LA's.

pitkan wrote: »

Durin the 'boom' we had 50,000 on the live register. Was any 'dole' office shut? Was any staff made redundant or re-deployed?

No but since the bubble burst and increases in people on the live register numbers employed in Social Welfare offices have fallen so they have clearly become more efficient which is a good thing. I would also think wait times and the like have increased for people going on to the dole or looking for amendments to their allowances.

If staff reductions were via the early retirement gravy train of last February then this is false economy.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

No but since the bubble burst and increases in people on the live register numbers employed in Social Welfare offices have fallen so they have clearly become more efficient which is a good thing. I would also think wait times and the like have increased for people going on to the dole or looking for amendments to their allowances.

:pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

you obviously have had no dealings with the social welfare offices from a recipient stand point.

Where does all the rest of the charges and levies go like life insurance levies and house insurance levies etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc???

Iv just got a letter in the door from our bin collectors to say that the must increase the charge by 2 euro because the government has upped the charge on recycling and waste for the bin companies. So now not only are they trying to tax us to the hilt for exisiting in our country but they are forcing companies that supply a service, that they choose to drop, to increase there charges.

pitkan wrote: »

If staff reductions were via the early retirement gravy train of last February then this is false economy.

I said staff reductions were made up of retirements and temporary staff being let go, the ratio between the two I wouldnt know.

Now in your original post today you asked why we were being asked to pay €100 yet you realise that the funding for local authorities has been reduced significantly, so why did you need to ask that question when you already clearly knew the answer.

Hijpo wrote: »

:pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

you obviously have had no dealings with the social welfare offices from a recipient stand point.

Where does all the rest of the charges and levies go like life insurance levies and house insurance levies etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc???

Iv just got a letter in the door from our bin collectors to say that the must increase the charge by 2 euro because the government has upped the charge on recycling and waste for the bin companies. So now not only are they trying to tax us to the hilt for exisiting in our country but they are forcing companies that supply a service, that they choose to drop, to increase there charges.

Em how would I know sure apparently I am an idiot and a dope so there is no way I could possibly answer any questions!!

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Do you mean without the waiver what would it mean to you?

If that is what you mean well it wouldnt mean anything to you as you are not liable for it anyway.

Do you think the consequences for not registering are the same for you as they are for someone who is liable to pay it?

Try again Donal.

A waiver = excused/exempt from something.
Without it = not exempt/not excused.

donalg1 wrote: »

I am talking about the funding made up from tax revenues.

And if you are saying that the LA's are funded by the likes of Motor Tax Receipts, Charges for Goods and Services and Commercial Rates then I am sure you will realise that the levels of funding from these sources will have dramatically decreased in recent years. Which has meant that alternative sources have to be looked at, hence the domestic water charges and property tax.

And when the country gets back in its feet, all the levies and tax increases will disappear again?

donalg1 wrote: »

The numbers in LA's have as far as I know, they have dropped to below the proposed numbers set out in the CPA. All temporary staff are gone across the PS and there have been mass retirements too, so yes I would imagine the staff levels have dropped.

That means they'll get a pension funded by whom?

donalg1 wrote: »

I said staff reductions were made up of retirements and temporary staff being let go, the ratio between the two I wouldnt know.

Now in your original post today you asked why we were being asked to pay €100 yet you realise that the funding for local authorities has been reduced significantly, so why did you need to ask that question when you already clearly knew the answer.

It is similar to the hangman asking you to buy your own rope.

But I did answer my own question.:P

pitkan wrote: »

It is similar to the hangman asking you to buy your own rope.

But I did answer my own question.:P

No it is similiar to asking people to pay for services received and not to pay 80% of the cost of said services.

Ghandee wrote: »

Try again Donal.

A waiver = excused/exempt from something.
Without it = still not liable to pay

FYP

And when the country gets back in its feet, all the levies and tax increases will disappear again?

Sorry Ghandee I cant find my crystal ball just now, if I manage to find it I will get back to you. :rolleyes:

Although I imagine the Property tax and water charges wont disappear, as FF had established a tax system based on the construction industry and based on purchases of properties, whereas now FG are trying to introduce a more stable tax base so that the same mistakes as before wont be made again which will hopefully insulate us from another crash as big as the recent one.

That means they'll get a pension funded by whom?

The taxpayer of course Ghandee. However the pension they will receive will be less than the salaries they would be receiving if they hadnt retired so there will be some savings made.