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Child Item

Another mass shooting in the U.S

dd972

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-respond-us-school-shooting-reports-153441807.html

condolences to those affected, wonder though if these will go on indefinately and the gun culture of the U.S is set in stone

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Da Shins Kelly

EdenHazard wrote: »

Forgive me for having a bit more concern for the innocent kids and brave teachers who lost their life over some scumbag subhuman!

Its a bloody joke. The media pushes this whole 'child genius' 'intelligent but reclusive' bull**** all the time. Makes morons like on this thread be overly sympathetic to a waste of space who feel society is to blame, not this little scrawny alien lookalike. So annoying!

Sorry, but someone who shoots a bunch of children is not a "normal" person. That doesn't mean they should be "put down" either. They are very sick people who need help and treatment. Offering some help to mentally ill people and trying to understand what makes people do these terrible things doesn't mean that people are more concerned about the perpetrators than they are for the victims. Of course the victims are the most important people in this situation and this should never have happened, but "putting down" the offenders is not the answer either, especially since the problem here is more than likely a mental health problem. This man was clearly unwell.

The issue is not so much a gun control problem as it is a people problem. And by that I mean mentally ill people who have not been treated. It is not in any way humane or appropriate or civilised to "put down" mentally ill people.

Having said all that, it is still not right to be giving these people more air time and attention than they deserve. Talking about them all the time is just giving them the validation that they think they're entitled to. Send them to a psychiatric hospital and have done with it. Then talk about the victims for a change.

Overheal

EdenHazard wrote: »

Forgive me for having a bit more concern for the innocent kids and brave teachers who lost their life over some scumbag subhuman!

He was doomed from the start. Should have been put down like a dog that they know will be too aggressive and therfore incompatible with society.

His life had no purpose. There's nothing that could be done for him

I don't know about you but I don't have a time machine. But when you find one let me know we can go back and kill baby Hitler*, etc.

In fact by your 4th dimensional logic I could reasonably argue that he killed all those children because they were all going to grow up to become the next generation of dictators, or the harbingers of the apocalypse. In short: that logic is ****ing crazy. It's completely absurd for anyone to sit there and pretend like there was omniscience about what was going to happen. It's like yelling at your friend for picking Rock instead of Scissors, 'of COURSE he should have picked scissors! Anyone could have seen that!!" You act like you knew all along he was going to kill people so why didn't you do anything to stop him? ****s sake, the lack of critical thought in this thread is starting to do my head in.

MagicSean

EdenHazard wrote: »

Forgive me for having a bit more concern for the innocent kids and brave teachers who lost their life over some scumbag subhuman!

Its a bloody joke. The media pushes this whole 'child genius' 'intelligent but reclusive' bull**** all the time. Makes morons like on this thread be overly sympathetic to a waste of space who feel society is to blame, not this little scrawny alien lookalike. So annoying!

The irony being that it's attitudes like yours that push these kids further and further into exclusion

BattleCorp

MagicSean wrote: »

Horse riding has many uses outside of battle or sport. Archery doesn't. Shooting doesnt. Fencing doesn't. They are battle skills that can no longer be freely used in modern day so are converted into a sport.

How about we just leave it at "guns have no use outside of killing people and sport"

Magic Sean,

I own several guns as I take part in target shooting as a hobby. To be honest, I get great pleasure from target shooting and I don't see why I should be ashamed of this fact (as lots of posters here seem to think).

I'm a normal, middle aged man who doesn't suffer from any psychiatric illness, commit crimes or generally go around p1ssing people off. By promoting that "Guns R Bad, Mkay" attitude and trying to get them banned, you are in effect punishing people like me. Now don't get me wrong, I have great sympathy for what happened to those kids in America. It's a pure tragedy. But it's not solely the fault of the gun. That kid clearly had mental issues. How else would you go into a school and shoot five or six year olds. Clearly no sane person would do this.

I would love for you to come down to our target shooting club and see what happens there. We aren't a bunch of Rambos running around in cammo gear shooting human targets. It's illegal here in Ireland to shoot at human shaped targets (as you already know) and we don't wear cammo gear either.

Safety on the range is our number one priority. It's all very well organised You can't shoot here if you are on your own. You must have a Range Officer supervising you before you can shoot. Some weekends we could have between 50 and 100 members down at the range. Every weekend it goes off without a hitch. Our safety record is impeccible. It's all highly regulated, with the strictest rules of probably any sport out there. In fact, we have a few members of An Garda Siochana in our ranks.

I have great sympathy for kids being killed, or anyone for that matter being killed with guns but it's very frustrating to see all us law abiding shooters being tarred with the same brush as Adam Lanza just because we enjoy shooting.

clairefontaine

The fascination with the gun is in itself fascinating. I don't know the details or differences in the different kinds of guns and I wouldn't be able to hold my own in a discussion or argument about assault weapons or rifles or handguns or the different kinds of bullets. So I wont address that.

Would Lanza have done this if he didn't have access to a gun? He could have used a bow and arrow or a knife right? Maybe not. It mightn't have fit in with the initial ideations, no doubt encouraged by the cultural adoration of the gun. It's not the distribution of guns that is the problem, its the cultural adoration of them. You can feel dominant and dangerous and safe all at the same time. You can feel like a hero. You can feel mastery. Does any other weapon do that? He was probably a scrawny weak alienated and ostrasized kid who could feel powerful while also making himself feel better, avoid his own pain by inflicting it on others.

Blaming this massacre on guns is slightly missing the point and entirely missing a lot of other factors at play here, sociological, psychological, gender, you name it. I've heard and seen more blame on this from the single mother's fault, to a theory about him being raped by a priest, to asperger's, to health insurance companies refusing out patient treatment to conspiracy theories about psych ops setting him up, and it is all based on not knowing, because we don't know, but it feels good to blame, because what else can you do when you feel powerless in the face of this?

As for guns, which again I know nothing about, is if you have the right to bear arms, then your neighbours have the right to know exactly how much you have stashed in your house and how much ammunition you have. It will probably become very common on dating sites to have the question about whether you keep a gun in the house, and when you send your child over for a play date whether there is a gun in the house or not and not only is it locked away but is itself locked and loaded.

Now you have people saying arm the teachers. Where does it end? Adam Lanza's mother had guns in the house and they didn't protect her. If I hear someone suggest arm the six year olds, I think I might just need a very stiff drink.

InTheTrees

America is a violent country.

30,000 dead from guns every year.

Five hundred people have died from gunshots since this last massacre.

That includes FIFTY kids.

Those numbers give some idea how a ban is totally impractical, further regulation may work but it probably wont.

The thing is that the basic staples of american gun ownership, handguns, shotguns and rifles will never be banned. The most we can expect is rifle magazines that hold less bullets...

Maybe that'll make some dent on the 30,000 deaths but I'd be surprised especially since gun death numbers are increasing.

Interesting times.

Overheal

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Another shooting. This time in Pennsylvania

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pennsylvania-shooting-four-shot-dead-1500988

Predicted by all the analysts that suggested the media was a big part of the problem. I have little doubt the person who carried out that shooting has been following the CT news and thought to themselves how much media attention they could get by killing some people. "Yeah, that'll show the world!" etc.

aloyisious

It's just a bit of supposing by me, but I'm wondering if Ryan had just one too many rows with his mum over whatever problem he/they had, he killed her while in a psychotic mood. He took her guns and went to where he had been schooled where (in the same mood) he shot the kids, perversely in a belief that he was doing them a favour by not allowing them to be put through what he had gone through growing up.

smurgen

aloyisious wrote: »

It's just a bit of supposing by me, but I'm wondering if Ryan had just one too many rows with his mum over whatever problem he/they had, he killed her while in a psychotic mood. He took her guns and went to where he had been schooled where (in the same mood) he shot the kids, perversely in a belief that he was doing them a favour by not allowing them to be put through what he had gone through growing up.

Seems like a plausible train of thought that he might have went through.it's weird how alot of these shooters/serial killers etc seem to have had messed up mothers,

mike65

Not weird at all, if you have a crazy mother you have a crazy son to some degree or other. Its the most important relationship in the family as a rule, fathers being more distant/absent.

Da Shins Kelly

smurgen wrote: »

Seems like a plausible train of thought that he might have went through.it's weird how alot of these shooters/serial killers etc seem to have had messed up mothers,

I wouldn't say it's too weird. I'd be inclined to believe that a person's relationship with their mother is one of, if not the, most important relationship in anyone's life. The mother figure is often the primary carer, the nurturing influence. If that relationship fails, I can see how that might send someone wrong.

clairefontaine

smurgen wrote: »

Seems like a plausible train of thought that he might have went through.it's weird how alot of these shooters/serial killers etc seem to have had messed up mothers,

They also tend to be white American males.

Everyone [not just on this thread but at large] is blaming everything and everyone for this but Lanza himself.

He was a 20 year old adult.

old hippy

EdenHazard wrote: »

Forgive me for having a bit more concern for the innocent kids and brave teachers who lost their life over some scumbag subhuman!

Its a bloody joke. The media pushes this whole 'child genius' 'intelligent but reclusive' bull**** all the time. Makes morons like on this thread be overly sympathetic to a waste of space who feel society is to blame, not this little scrawny alien lookalike. So annoying!

I imagine there are people out there who have difficulties coping with life and/or mental issues. You sound like the sort of bully who contributes to a person's misery.

I think you need to stand back and take a look at your rather offensive diatribe against the mentally ill.

briany

InTheTrees wrote: »

America is a violent country.

30,000 dead from guns every year.

Five hundred people have died from gunshots since this last massacre.

That includes FIFTY kids.

Those numbers give some idea how a ban is totally impractical, further regulation may work but it probably wont.

The thing is that the basic staples of american gun ownership, handguns, shotguns and rifles will never be banned. The most we can expect is rifle magazines that hold less bullets...

Maybe that'll make some dent on the 30,000 deaths but I'd be surprised especially since gun death numbers are increasing.

Interesting times.

If that stat is true, where are these killings happening? I'm not doubting it but why doesn't that figure spur on the outcry for gun control? If it's mainly the poorer classes, junkies and racial minorities dying , then it lends creedence to the idea that some people are more important than others or that people only seem to care about tragedy when it's wrapped up in a neat little package and that's wrong.

clairefontaine wrote: »

They also tend to be white American males.

Everyone [not just on this thread but at large] is blaming everything and everyone for this but Lanza himself.

He was a 20 year old adult.

I've noticed that, throughout the years, when something like this happens, the person who actually committed the crime is only one of things to blame according to news media. I suppose it's just too hard for them to analyse the mind of a dead person and look at what made them tick, how their psyche was structured and build a complex 3D picture of the why, the how, the whole thing. Much easier to tack on an existing narrative; violent video games and easy access to guns.

The whole fascination with violence and this killer on the part of the news people and on a large share of the audience is one of the saddest legacies of tragedies like this because it only perpetuates the cycle.

Here's Lanza's former schoolmate talking about him and, later in the article, Lanza's barber saying how he wished he would have slashed Lanza's throat. :eek:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/12/classmate-adam-lanza-had-webpage-dedicated-to-satan/

With that kind of foresight and time to go, maybe a better way would have been to try and help the lad his problems in some way?

aloyisious

I picked this up from the'Net but don't know if the WBC showed up or not, as they sometimes don't keep their self-announced protest rallies.

When the scumbags from Westboro Baptist Church showed up to protest at one of the funerals for a victim in Newtown [because they believe God is punishing Connecticut for legalizing gay marriage] this is what they ran into… Hundreds of Hells Angels, cops, and firemen that were there to make sure they couldn’t spew their hate. I LOVE this.

clairefontaine

After the Columbine massacre, the secret service began an initiative to prevent school violence.

Here are what they found. It's an interesting read for anyone who has a more indepth interest.

I wont quote excerpt and copy them here because I am never sure about copywrite infringement on message boards but have posted the links below.

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ssi_final_report.pdf

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/bystander_study.pdf

And here is a list of attacks that failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_attacks_related_to_schools

yammycat

The evidence that this was a manufactured shooting, with either no kids killed or unwanted kids killed mounts, it is simply an attempt to un arm the populace before more radical rights infringing legislation is introduced wherein the people will have no way to defend themselves or object, remember Robbie Parker, the actor whose baby girl got shot in the face a few hours ago who is happy as a pig in **** then when told cameras are on goes into a ridiculous actors exercise to get himself in character

There is so much more evidence that this shooting was faked but this is truly the nail in the coffin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urrRcgB581w

remember this happy man's 6 year old just took a bullet to the face a few hours ago and he has to do acting tricks to make himself look sad

A Dub in Glasgo

Feck sake, you are serious

FISMA

clairefontaine wrote: »

Everyone [not just on this thread but at large] is blaming everything and everyone for this but Lanza himself.

Lanza was known to be psychotic.

In the week prior to his murderous rampage he began to burn himself.

What kind of parent, in the face of such actions, does not lock their guns in a safe and the ammo somewhere else?

It is not trendy though to blame the dead.

clairefontaine

FISMA wrote: »

Lanza was known to be psychotic.

In the week prior to his murderous rampage he began to burn himself.

What kind of parent, in the face of such actions, does not lock their guns in a safe and the ammo somewhere else?

It is not trendy though to blame the dead.

I tried to come up with some explanation to understand why she would teach him how to use guns and why she would let him have access to guns.

No parent in their wildest dreams thinks it's their child who will be the mass killer, the rapist, the monster. Yet statistically it has to be someone's child. He self harmed and played video games, lots of teenagers do that so it would be easy to rationalise, especially if you are a burnt out single parent raising a high needs child. I dont know if he was known to be psychotic, there was no record, he was just a loner and strange as far as I know.

I imagine Lanza to have been an awkward, scrawny kid who was probably ostracised and picked on, and very likely an outcast. This is pure speculation because I have no idea but a bright kid with aspergers who never could fit in would be down on the social scale of American highschool hazing, nerd, geek culture. It would not be farfetched to think he had years of it.

I could well imagine her teaching him about guns because she imagined that one day HE would be a victim and wanted him to protect himself. The same reason most other people have guns for personal defense.

Its funny to think that the NRA might suggest that Nancy Lanza should have had a gun to protect herself and none of this would have happenned. It's their kind of logic.

I could easily see the suicide by homicide theory working here. But I wonder why he picked the victims he picked.

MagicSean

BattleCorp wrote: »

Magic Sean,

I own several guns as I take part in target shooting as a hobby. To be honest, I get great pleasure from target shooting and I don't see why I should be ashamed of this fact (as lots of posters here seem to think).

I'm a normal, middle aged man who doesn't suffer from any psychiatric illness, commit crimes or generally go around p1ssing people off. By promoting that "Guns R Bad, Mkay" attitude and trying to get them banned, you are in effect punishing people like me. Now don't get me wrong, I have great sympathy for what happened to those kids in America. It's a pure tragedy. But it's not solely the fault of the gun. That kid clearly had mental issues. How else would you go into a school and shoot five or six year olds. Clearly no sane person would do this.

I would love for you to come down to our target shooting club and see what happens there. We aren't a bunch of Rambos running around in cammo gear shooting human targets. It's illegal here in Ireland to shoot at human shaped targets (as you already know) and we don't wear cammo gear either.

Safety on the range is our number one priority. It's all very well organised You can't shoot here if you are on your own. You must have a Range Officer supervising you before you can shoot. Some weekends we could have between 50 and 100 members down at the range. Every weekend it goes off without a hitch. Our safety record is impeccible. It's all highly regulated, with the strictest rules of probably any sport out there. In fact, we have a few members of An Garda Siochana in our ranks.

I have great sympathy for kids being killed, or anyone for that matter being killed with guns but it's very frustrating to see all us law abiding shooters being tarred with the same brush as Adam Lanza just because we enjoy shooting.

I never tarred anyone with any brush. I simply said guns are designed for killing. There is absolutely no denying that fact no matter how much fun you have using them legally. I'm not ani gun or anti shooting but i see no point in denying what is undeniably true.

In any case, my original comment was in response to a stupid argument by another poster. It was something along the lines of cars can kill people so they would also have to be banned, knives can kill people so they would also have to be banned. The fact is that those items have a primary purpose which is not killing. The primary purpose of guns is to kill. Even if they can also be legitimately used for sport, it is not their primary use.

yammycat

MagicSean wrote: »

I simply said guns are designed for killing.

Oh so you are all butthurt that there was a bad man behind the gun, you want guns banned because the bad man used the bad guns to kill kiddies, you have no concern over the fact 100 children are killed by drunk drivers for every 1 killed by a gun, your real concern isn't random kids being killed it's moral outrage, zomg the bad man killed a babby , why did jebus let this happen,(oh 20 babbies died in swimming pools and 200 got run over by drunk drivers and another 50 choked on chocolate) that doesn't matter though because a ban man didnt do it and im only upset because a bad man, yea the big man.

If your concern was kids getting killed you be looking for alcohol and swimming pools and gob stoppers to be banned first, if you say hurr but they have other uses then yea you are just making it plain you are all upset because of 'the bad man' because guns have other uses too, check out the olympics, you can get gold medals with guns there without shooting anyone in the face

srsly take your moral outrage elsewhere and try to realise that just because there is a bad man behind the gun that killed 1 kid purposely that doesnt make the 200 drunk fools who killed 200 kids any better

its christmas, why not go light a candle with that limp wrist and make some use of it

Overheal

clairefontaine wrote: »

After the Columbine massacre, the secret service began an initiative to prevent school violence.

Here are what they found. It's an interesting read for anyone who has a more indepth interest.

I wont quote excerpt and copy them here because I am never sure about copywrite infringement on message boards but have posted the links below.

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ssi_final_report.pdf

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/bystander_study.pdf

And here is a list of attacks that failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_attacks_related_to_schools

It's government record, it's not copyrighted.

Man City 10

EZ24GET wrote: »

Who would have called him a terrorist, or gang member? Do you mean the media? I am not hearing anyone make excuses for this murderer.
I do feel that there are few resources for families of mentally disturbed people, you can not force an adult into a program - if you can even find one. Unless there is reason to believe the person is a threat to their-self or others there is nothing you can do. Even if you can it must be determined in court by a judge and that takes time.
It is still early to know the reasons behind this event. A few days ago there was a thread here that asked if some people are just simply evil, I would say this is an example of evil.
And at the end of the day after so much pointing of fingers and endless talk and conjecture nothing is accomplished and the only comfort is in forgetfulness - until the next time.

Well.....
All i am saying why is this the case why are people all over the world you do know there around half of the worlds population who feel that way against other peoples races its not the media its the people and from the people creates a media

Man City 10

EZ24GET wrote: »

Who would have called him a terrorist, or gang member? Do you mean the media? I am not hearing anyone make excuses for this murderer.
I do feel that there are few resources for families of mentally disturbed people, you can not force an adult into a program - if you can even find one. Unless there is reason to believe the person is a threat to their-self or others there is nothing you can do. Even if you can it must be determined in court by a judge and that takes time.
It is still early to know the reasons behind this event. A few days ago there was a thread here that asked if some people are just simply evil, I would say this is an example of evil.
And at the end of the day after so much pointing of fingers and endless talk and conjecture nothing is accomplished and the only comfort is in forgetfulness - until the next time.

Who would have called him a terrorist, or gang member? Do you mean the media? I am not hearing anyone make excuses for this murderer.

I said 'had this' not who
If it was one of those people

FISMA

clairefontaine wrote: »

especially if you are a burnt out single parent

Getting $250,000 a year in alimony and living in a mansion?

Mom's Guns = Mom's responsibility

EdenHazard

aloyisious wrote: »

It's just a bit of supposing by me, but I'm wondering if Ryan had just one too many rows with his mum over whatever problem he/they had, he killed her while in a psychotic mood. He took her guns and went to where he had been schooled where (in the same mood) he shot the kids, perversely in a belief that he was doing them a favour by not allowing them to be put through what he had gone through growing up.

Yeah I'd say so alright :rolleyes: And calling him 'Ryan' just sounds creepy.

clairefontaine

FISMA wrote: »

Getting $250,000 a year in alimony and living in a mansion?

Mom's Guns = Mom's responsibility

There is a lot money can do and a lot it can't do. It cant fix a broken heart and it can't fix your broken child.

She was the first victim, she paid the price with her life, but this was his choice, he made a decision and he pulled the trigger. I was trying to piece together an explanation for why she would have had guns and taught him how to shoot, and the only one I could come up with was because she felt he might be a victim one day, considering it might be your child that is the spree killer is beyond any parent's imagination or that in her world, her community this is an entirely normal practise?

MagicSean

yammycat wrote: »

Oh so you are all butthurt that there was a bad man behind the gun, you want guns banned because the bad man used the bad guns to kill kiddies, you have no concern over the fact 100 children are killed by drunk drivers for every 1 killed by a gun, your real concern isn't random kids being killed it's moral outrage, zomg the bad man killed a babby , why did jebus let this happen,(oh 20 babbies died in swimming pools and 200 got run over by drunk drivers and another 50 choked on chocolate) that doesn't matter though because a ban man didnt do it and im only upset because a bad man, yea the big man.

If your concern was kids getting killed you be looking for alcohol and swimming pools and gob stoppers to be banned first, if you say hurr but they have other uses then yea you are just making it plain you are all upset because of 'the bad man' because guns have other uses too, check out the olympics, you can get gold medals with guns there without shooting anyone in the face

srsly take your moral outrage elsewhere and try to realise that just because there is a bad man behind the gun that killed 1 kid purposely that doesnt make the 200 drunk fools who killed 200 kids any better

its christmas, why not go light a candle with that limp wrist and make some use of it

What moral outrage? And where did I say guns should be banned? Also, I'm not religious. Did you actually read my posts or did you just see a sentence and lose the run of yourself?

For the record, I'm in favour of responsible gun ownership. I think the rules in Ireland are quite good. There's plenty of checks in it. So for example someone with obvious self control and anger issues would be refused a firearm. I take it you don't have one?

InTheTrees

briany wrote: »

If that stat is true, where are these killings happening? I'm not doubting it but why doesn't that figure spur on the outcry for gun control?

It was from the 30,000 deaths a year number. Simply divide by 52 to get a per week number.

I know it sounds excessive and of course I just got it from the web somewhere but nothing suprises anymore.

Most people here in the US are aware that the shootings are a daily part of urban life.