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Child Item

An Post €1.75M Fraudster - Criminal or Victim?

byronbay2

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/court-tony-o-reilly.html
We have been discussing this on the Gambling forum (yes, I like an occasional flutter!) since last night but I would like to bring the topic to a wider audience, even if that means entering the jungle that is AH.

The story is that 37 year-old post office manager Tony O'Reilly from Carlow (a married man with a 2 year-old child) stole over €1.75 million from his employer (An Post) over the course of 14 months and used it to gamble with bookmaker Paddy Power. He was a very obvious compulsive gambler (he had a turnover of €10 million in his PP account during the 14-month period and placed a €40K bet on Norwegian Ladies Football at one point) and, of course, lost every penny of the money he stole plus all of his own money.

An Post eventually (after, what I consider, a farcical delay) realised what had happened and brought in The Gardai. He was questioned and immediately admitted his crime. He cooperated fully, was charged and pleaded guilty to six charges of theft. Yesterday, he was sentenced to 4 years in prison with 1 year suspended.

Here's the thing: I'm no bleeding heart liberal but I have rarely read a story where I have felt so sorry for the criminal. It was a first offence, nobody was hurt, he admitted his crime and helped Gardai with their investigation, he pleaded guilty, he did not enrich himself in any way and, in my opinion, there are fairly extreme extenuating circumstances for the crimes he committed, in so far as he was addicted to gambling. He has now given up gambling and wants to help others in his situation. I certainly think that a 1-year sentence would have served the same purpose as a 4-year one for this man - I hope he's released after 6 months like most of the real criminals in jail!

The other matter I want to discuss regarding this case is the culpability (or otherwise) of Paddy Power. Mr. O'Reilly was very obviously a compulsive gambler. PP have a code of conduct that precludes it from taking bets from people it believes might be compulsive gamblers. Also, all their staff are trained to spot the signs that a customer may have a problem and to offer them help and advice. All I can say in this situation is: FAIL!! A Post Office manager with a turnover of €10 million in his PP account?? If there was ever an obvious problem gambler, it was Tony O'Reilly. Instead of helping him, Paddy Power wined and dined him with all-expenses paid trips to The Curragh and The Aviva Stadium. Despicable behaviour by PP in my opinion. They knew beyond any doubt that the guy had a serious gambling problem that would inevitably lead to personal catastrophe and did nothing to help him. On the contrary, they happily took him for every penny he had and every penny he could defraud his employers of - so much for their obligation to social responsibility and responsible gambling!

As a side bar, I also personally believe that Paddy Power should return the €1.75 million lost by Mr. O'Reilly to An Post. He was gambling, like all compulsive gamblers, with ZERO chance of winning i.e he would keep gambling until he had nothing left no matter how much he won at any stage along the way. That, in my opinion, is why PP are so culpable - they knew the inevitable outcome better than anyone!

Anyway, rant finally over - this is undoubtedly my longest ever post on Boards. What do you think about this situation? Let me just say, I have no connection whatsoever with Mr. O'Reilly and no general antipathy towards Paddy Power, except in this instance. I have a long-standing account with them and am delighted that an Irish company is doing so well and employing so many.

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opinion guy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I think the 8 million was the culmination of money won and lost numerous times while the 1.7m loss was the initial investment. Surely if there was 6 million sitting in the account he would have been able to hire a better lawyer

Having a flash lawyer would be a bit of a give away as to having the cash no ?

Corkbah

Boombastic wrote: »

And the Gardai would miss out on a lot of work and publicity.

and overtime !! ...dont forget the overtime !!

Cienciano

somefeen wrote: »

Its an illness yes.
But so is drug addiction, we don't let drug addicts off for stealing.

Actually, a lot of them do. Saying to the judge that they have a drug problem but are going to tackle it by going into rehab is a get out clause for a hell of a lot of junkies.

PizzamanIRL

You answered your own question in the title. Fraud = crime.

He hardly spent every cent of the 1.75 million in the bookies. He probably splashed out on something along the way.

Odysseus

Cienciano wrote: »

Actually, a lot of them do. Saying to the judge that they have a drug problem but are going to tackle it by going into rehab is a get out clause for a hell of a lot of junkies.

Do you have to use the term Junkie? Going into rehab is one of the hardest things a person will do, believe me it is not a cushy number.

Going into to treatment to detox or going into rehab they are different are not get out of jail free cards.

Often the judge will make a treatment/rehab order.

This is something a judge will consider, it does not remove blame, as I siad it is only one of the things a judge will consider.

I write a lot of court reports for addicts; believe me they are not get out of jail free cards.

Corkbah

Odysseus wrote: »

Do you have to use the term Junkie? Going into rehab is one of the hardest things a person will do, believe me it is not a cushy number.

Going into to treatment to detox or going into rehab they are different are not get out of jail free cards.

Often the judge will make a treatment/rehab order.

This is something a judge will consider, it does not remove blame, as I siad it is only one of the things a judge will consider.

I write a lot of court reports for addicts; believe me they are not get out of jail free cards.

I think the other person is saying that your reports are basically used to get a lighter sentence, used by solicitors/barristers to assist their clients.

I've seen it myself in court a few years back.... barrister stood up and said his client suffers from alcohol addiction and has been an alcoholic for in excess of 20yrs ..... little girl sitting next to the defendant turns to her and says "but mammy, you dont drink" ...only that I was within earshot myself that I'm willing to repeat it (I cant for the life of me remember what case it was but it was in ct3 in the round hall of the four courts - so it was not a circuit criminal court matter)

Solicitors often get clients bumped up or even put onto the waiting list for rehabilitation clinics so they can say that their client is making efforts and is on a waiting list, I know there are a number of people annoyed that some solicitors get their clients fast-tracked on FAS courses (I'm assuming it still happens) ... just because it would look like they are making efforts to change their lives.

Criminals in this country (in my opinion) have every opportunity afforded to them yet the level of recidivist crime is scary !! ...last week there was a 25yr old woman with 215 (or around that) previous convictions, there was a guy yesterday (if my memory is correct) ...32 previous convictions and he only spent a month in prison !!

As regards this guy - he knowingly defrauded and stole from his employer and by-proxy stole from public coffers (An Post are still a government organisation ...right ??) .... gambling is addictive, yes, online gambling is even more addictive as you do not physically see the money disappear...but it does and unless the government do something about it ...it will continue to happen.

I also agree with another previous comment about the internal procedures of An-Post should be investigated .... when that level of money can go missing without an internal audit or investigation....something is fundamentally wrong with the procedures.

byronbay2

Slattsy wrote: »

I bet €40k the OP regrets posting this in AH :pac:

I'll take that bet!!!!!

Seriously, I don't regret starting the thread even though I got a lot of replies of the kind I would have expected from AH. I had a certain reaction to reading about the case and wanted to see if others felt the same - I don't take the replies personally at all.

Just in case there is any confusion about the €10 million mentioned: that is turnover, he never (obviously) had €10m in his account. Every bet he made didn't lose so there was a lot of turnover as he gradually worked his way through the €1.75 million to get to zero.

Also, when I said nobody was hurt by his crime, I meant physically. I agree he needs to be punished for what he did but feel that a 4-year sentence is disproportionate based on all the circumstances outlined.

super_furry

I don't think you can take the motives behind the theft into account. He stole €1.75million is the beginning and ending of the story for me.

Thrill

Criminal. Hopefully this wake-up call will force him to get the much needed help he needs.

Odysseus

Corkbah wrote: »

I think the other person is saying that your reports are basically used to get a lighter sentence, used by solicitors/barristers to assist their clients.

I've seen it myself in court a few years back.... barrister stood up and said his client suffers from alcohol addiction and has been an alcoholic for in excess of 20yrs ..... little girl sitting next to the defendant turns to her and says "but mammy, you dont drink" ...only that I was within earshot myself that I'm willing to repeat it (I cant for the life of me remember what case it was but it was in ct3 in the round hall of the four courts - so it was not a circuit criminal court matter)

Solicitors often get clients bumped up or even put onto the waiting list for rehabilitation clinics so they can say that their client is making efforts and is on a waiting list, I know there are a number of people annoyed that some solicitors get their clients fast-tracked on FAS courses (I'm assuming it still happens) ... just because it would look like they are making efforts to change their lives.

Criminals in this country (in my opinion) have every opportunity afforded to them yet the level of recidivist crime is scary !! ...last week there was a 25yr old woman with 215 (or around that) previous convictions, there was a guy yesterday (if my memory is correct) ...32 previous convictions and he only spent a month in prison !!

As regards this guy - he knowingly defrauded and stole from his employer and by-proxy stole from public coffers (An Post are still a government organisation ...right ??) .... gambling is addictive, yes, online gambling is even more addictive as you do not physically see the money disappear...but it does and unless the government do something about it ...it will continue to happen.

I also agree with another previous comment about the internal procedures of An-Post should be investigated .... when that level of money can go missing without an internal audit or investigation....something is fundamentally wrong with the procedures.

Well in that case, if the person was getting treatment the judge should have been asking where are the reports from the treatment providers. In my experience courts are not happy with being told that someone is in treatment, they want written reports detailing that.

I dislike writing courts reports because as far as I'm concerned a persons treament is not for public comsumption.

Now I can't speak for evey treatment unit, but I can't tell you solicitors have not imput in relation to waiting lists for HSE treatment clinics or detox unit. Yes we have one for the whole country.

I disagree about how my reports are used, if the subject gets a lighter sentense it is not because of my report. It is because of the work the person has undertaken to address their situation which is reflected in my report.

I give a report yes, that includes what the person has done, how they have responded to treatment, how they have engaged in treatment. If the do not engage or respond I write that or tell a client that they are better off not getting a report from me.

So a report only reflects any changes or attempts to change that a subject undertakes, that I can objectively stand over. It has never happened to me, but a judge can go what the fcuk is this writing; get him here in front of me to explain this. Hence we are very careful what we write.

Also as some people think we do, we never mention the question of sentensing, that is the judges job, so unless you want to p!ss him off and get a severe sentense for a client, that is left to the judge.

So that mean there is none of this: this subject had a very difficult and traumatic upbringing and should therefore get a suspended jail term.

B.A._Baracus

... and this is another example about how life is not fair.

If i go and rob and shop. I'd get sent down for 14 years or something.

MagicMarker

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

If i go and rob and shop. I'd get sent down for 14 years or something.

I highly doubt that.

Odysseus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

... and this is another example about how life is not fair.

If i go and rob and shop. I'd get sent down for 14 years or something.

I doubt it, how would you rob the shop? Would you use violence? As that will impact on the charge. If you had a firearm, would you discharge it? This would also change things. See how things can be different.

DazMarz

I work in An Post, and I know what the auditors that come and screen office procedures are like. That they let this happen means that they should all be shown the door, heads should roll in a major way and there should be a complete overhaul in the overseeing of offices. Especially major ones in bigger towns where cash reserves can be massive.

As for him being a victim? No. He's an addict and deserves help, but he is in no way a victim.

Paddy Power are a bookmaker. They take money from gamblers. Do you really think they were going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs here and stop O'Reilly from betting? He simply would have taken his business to Ladbrokes, William Hill, Victor Chandler, Betfair, Bet365, SkyBet, Toolans, etc. ad nauseum. It would be different if Paddy Power were the only bookies he could have bet with. But the fact of the matter is, that if Paddy Power had called a halt to all of this, O'Reilly would simply have spread his betting across the plethora of other outlets for gaming and gambling that exist. This would have happened regardless of the actions Paddy Power took.

B.A._Baracus

Odysseus wrote: »

I doubt it, how would you rob the shop? Would you use violence? As that will impact on the charge. If you had a firearm, would you discharge it? This would also change things. See how things can be different.

So ... if I were to rob a shop with a hammer. Which is using the threat of violence as you say. But i'd only steal, what €1000 from the tills. I'd get a more hefty sentence that someone who steals 1.75 million?

I know what you are saying. Violence carries more of a sentence. But we're talking 1.75 million here.

So what is it? white collar crime isn't as bad in the eyes of the law?

humbert

There should be a few more sacked over this. Nobody do accounts at the end of the year?

Makes you wonder what else is going on at the hands of more astute thieves in their employ.

Corkbah

humbert wrote: »

There should be a few more sacked over this. Nobody do accounts at the end of the year?

Makes you wonder what else is going on at the hands of more astute thieves in their employ.

I think there was a part in the story ... where during an audit a receipt was taken ...bit of tippex (who uses tippex anymore??) ... receipt was changed from 90Kish to 390Kish .... which was close enough to balance to not notice the missing 300kish amount.

Stheno

Criminal, I do hope he gets treatment for his addiction though

Odysseus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So ... if I were to rob a shop with a hammer. Which is using the threat of violence as you say. But i'd only steal, what €1000 from the tills. I'd get a more hefty sentence that someone who steals 1.75 million?

I know what you are saying. Violence carries more of a sentence. But we're talking 1.75 million here.

So what is it? white collar crime isn't as bad in the eyes of the law?

Each case of robbery is so different I don't know what to say. I have some knowledge of the courts through work and stuff but I'm not legally trained.

The use of violence will always carry a more severe charge [in my understanding], by adding the weapon there is another charge on top of the theft, this is how people can rack up loads of convictions, for one event there could be one, two...five, six different charges/convictions.

Boombastic

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So ... if I were to rob a shop with a hammer. Which is using the threat of violence as you say. But i'd only steal, what €1000 from the tills. I'd get a more hefty sentence that someone who steals 1.75 million?

I know what you are saying. Violence carries more of a sentence. But we're talking 1.75 million here.

So what is it? white collar crime isn't as bad in the eyes of the law?

Do you come from a disadvantaged background? Are you on cough medicine or other drugs?

B.A._Baracus

Boombastic wrote: »

Do you come from a disadvantaged background? Are you on cough medicine or other drugs?

Ahhh get lost you fool :rolleyes:

Boombastic

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Ahhh get lost you fool :rolleyes:

It's very important when deciding your sentence:p

B.A._Baracus

Boombastic wrote: »

It's very important when deciding your sentence:p

Add something or get lost.

Super-Rush

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Ahhh get lost you fool :rolleyes:

Banned.

Motivator

This guy deserves to be sent down for 4 years, he's clearly a very calculating & cunning individual & this whole "I'm the victim" attitude he has is ridiculous. I have no sympathy for this guy. If he wanted help he would have gotten it after a couple of months, instead he spent 4 years lying & cheating his family, friends, colleagues & ultimately the tax payer.

How people can blame Paddy Power is beyond me, its laughable. For all Powers knew this guy was a pro gambler, the amount of money & frequency of bets would suggest so. People are calling on Paddy Power to give back the money are wrong, it's nothing to do with them. If a husband steals money from his wife's handbag, goes to the casino & loses it. Do you think she's entitled to get it back off the casino? No, of course not.

This O'Reilly guy is no victim, he lied, cheated & stole for 4 years & was thankfully caught out. **** him, 4 years? He's getting off lightly.

Odysseus

Motivator wrote: »

This guy deserves to be sent down for 4 years, he's clearly a very calculating & cunning individual & this whole "I'm the victim" attitude he has is ridiculous. I have no sympathy for this guy. If he wanted help he would have gotten it after a couple of months, instead he spent 4 years lying & cheating his family, friends, colleagues & ultimately the tax payer.

How people can blame Paddy Power is beyond me, its laughable. For all Powers knew this guy was a pro gambler, the amount of money & frequency of bets would suggest so. People are calling on Paddy Power to give back the money are wrong, it's nothing to do with them. If a husband steals money from his wife's handbag, goes to the casino & loses it. Do you think she's entitled to get it back off the casino? No, of course not.

This O'Reilly guy is no victim, he lied, cheated & stole for 4 years & was thankfully caught out. **** him, 4 years? He's getting off lightly.

I don't think he actually has this attitude, this was a question put forward by the OP.

If somebody has a serious addiction the processes involved in this mean that they will now seek help until their denial has been over loaded by reality. This is why most only seek help following a significant crisis; what some call a rock bottom.

Of course he is cunning and calculating pathological gambling is one of the more complex addictions to work with; most clinicians I know would agree with that.

sfwcork

I personally think the man is neither a criminal or a victim.the bottom line is that gambling is an illness in some cases.greed is an awful thing.the man didnt have a rich lifestyle but it does look like he couldnt stop.im not surprised that paddies acted in that way.bookies love losers and anybody that thinks that they do theyre best to spot problem gamblers lives in the same world as tinky winky and la la.laddies in uk have account teams whos job is to manage the big players,the vast majority of these large players are serial losers,some are big businessmen,some are premiership players.the more they lose the bigger the cheque is for the acc manager

sfwcork

Motivator wrote: »

This guy deserves to be sent down for 4 years, he's clearly a very calculating & cunning individual & this whole "I'm the victim" attitude he has is ridiculous. I have no sympathy for this guy. If he wanted help he would have gotten it after a couple of months, instead he spent 4 years lying & cheating his family, friends, colleagues & ultimately the tax payer.

How people can blame Paddy Power is beyond me, its laughable. For all Powers knew this guy was a pro gambler, the amount of money & frequency of bets would suggest so. People are calling on Paddy Power to give back the money are wrong, it's nothing to do with them. If a husband steals money from his wife's handbag, goes to the casino & loses it. Do you think she's entitled to get it back off the casino? No, of course not.

This O'Reilly guy is no victim, he lied, cheated & stole for 4 years & was thankfully caught out. **** him, 4 years? He's getting off lightly.

i guess by your post you have never gambled big or know much about the industry.its everything to do with paddy power.if a guy walks into a chemist every day and buys cough bottle after cough bottle is it not the chemists job to ask why.the man betting pattern suggested he had a gambling problem

jenniferalan

6 counts of stealing, he must have taken over 290k each time, i don't know how this was over looked or why no one dealing with the cash was suspended after the first time?

swimming in a sea

Well first off there is much better value on betfair/betdaq than on Paddy Power, that would be my first indication that he was not a professional.

Paddy power like all the other main bookies treat big losing customers like rock stars, they are called category A customers so their phone calls are immediately answered to make sure they don't miss their bet.

PaddyPower will mouth on about precautions they have in place, like self exclusion and daily deposit limits, but a compulsive gambler will always get around this, I'd be surprised if this guy did not have multiple accounts and multiple credit cards which should have raised some questions.

This guy is still a thief, but Paddypower(all bookies) would go out of business with out thief's, husbands stealing of their wife, children going without school books and uniforms since money has been gambled away.

He's guilty but bookies are given to much free rein in Ireland.