Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] Poll Reset

lugha wrote: »

I am saying we do not have a choice between austerity and no austerity, unless there is someone who will lend us 13 billion a year without us implementing any reforms. Have you any ideas as to where we would get this money from?

We will get this money from the EU.
Do you think they'll let us go under now?
We tell them that at the moment it is impossible to cut more and more as it is destroying the country. We tell them that we need time to get our house in order.
Every country runs a deficit, it's the way of the world. We're no different than loads of other countries.

I'll ask you again lugha, how are we doing after 4 years of austerity?
Bond rates are down, so what.

Tell you what, when you see our little lap dog kenny getting his hair ruffled and little kissies from merkel, and him being quite happy with that, you know we're fcuked.
We need a rothweiler at the helm, not a poodle!

gerryo777 wrote: »

We will get this money from the EU.
Do you think they'll let us go under now?

The Greeks protested harder and more vigorously that we did and it was pretty obvious that the EU would and will let them go under if they don’t implement the reforms that they required. And we are even less important to them than Greece.

gerryo777 wrote: »

Every country runs a deficit, it's the way of the world. We're no different than loads of other countries.

Spending 50 billion but taking in 30 (as was the case at the start of the crisis)??
I know there are fine arguments about what is and is not sustainable. But piling up 20 billion a year of debt, every year, in an economy of our size?? :eek:

gerryo777 wrote: »

I'll ask you again lugha, how are we doing after 4 years of austerity?
Bond rates are down, so what.

It hardly matters how bad the plan is if the alternative is a much worse plan.

lugha wrote: »

The Greeks protested harder and more vigorously that we did and it was pretty obvious that the EU would and will let them go under if they don’t implement the reforms that they required. And we are even less important to them than Greece.

Spending 50 billion but taking in 30 (as was the case at the start of the crisis)??
I know there are fine arguments about what is and is not sustainable. But piling up 20 billion a year of debt, every year, in an economy of our size?? :eek:

It hardly matters how bad the plan is if the alternative is a much worse plan.

You keep on about €20 billion, why? Our deficit isn't €20 billion.

How you can even compare us to Greece is beyond me, a country which cooked the books to get into the EU and lied through it's teeth all along.

Have a look here and see how they're bending over backwards for Greece and then tell me why they won't do the same for us.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CEIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Feuropean%2Feuro-zone-finance-ministers-consider-greek-interest-rate-cut-and-bond-buy-back-to-cut-debt-3301207.html&ei=LqSwUNCUE42FhQfNiYGYCg&usg=AFQjCNH9MdA3mzwcqBE6TopXl-DpneZi3w&sig2=K3N1WTqEk3JtoW379zEjyw

It's clear that there are people in our society who enjoy a bit of self flagellation. There is no other explanation.

And they're at it again.
One section against the other. Divide & conquer seems to be the idea ok.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/20862390/

So someone moves in next door to you and doesn't have to pay a property tax while you do.

Brain dead thinking.

Mind you, with a bankrupt banking sector set on building up it's cash pile and pension pots, there won't be too many taking this offer up.

Laughable.

gerryo777 wrote: »

You keep on about €20 billion, why? Our deficit isn't €20 billion.

It would be if we went with your “no austerity” plan. This is a neat little bit of dishonesty that quite a few on the “no” side are running with. They argue for no austerity, but insist on using the more favourable deficit figures that we now have, precisely because of austerity.

gerryo777 wrote: »

How you can even compare us to Greece is beyond me, a country which cooked the books to get into the EU and lied through it's teeth all along.

I think you’ll find that quite a few Europeans are equally unimpressed with how we ran our affairs in the last 10-15 years.

gerryo777 wrote: »

Have a look here and see how they're bending over backwards for Greece and then tell me why they won't do the same for us.

The are looking to do a deal on Greece’s debt, as they will do for us sometime in the new year. But have you considered why there is political will to help Greece? If you follow your own link you would have read:

Indo wrote: »

Pressure for the euro zone to come up with a solution is high not just because Greece is running out of money and financial markets want a dependable solution, but because Greece has taken virtually all the steps demanded of it to cut spending, raise taxes and overhaul its economy.
"It is clear that Greece has delivered," Juncker said.

gerryo777 wrote: »

It's clear that there are people in our society who enjoy a bit of self flagellation. There is no other explanation.

Well there might be one other explanation! Perhaps some of us have the ability of looking more than one step ahead. Yes you can argue that the austere measures have been damaging, and be tempted to say we should simply stop them. But if you would think your plan out a little bit ……

Mind if you are the sort of lad who fails to see the flaw in solving a mouse in your house (or home!) problem by settling loose a snake …. :pac:

K-9

gerryo777 wrote: »

Bond rates are down, so what.

My God.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

We went into recession in 2008, when the commission was established. It was tasked with outlining how our tax system should be structured for the next 10 to 15 years.

It came up with more of the same. Make the middle man pay for everything.
A kind of "Back to the Future" type of report.
Great to see new thinking especially that when things fail they then keep doing the same thing again all over again.

K-9 wrote: »

My God.

My God what, K9?

How does that solve our problems?

We can borrow at 3% or so from the ESM when it's set up or 4-5% from the markets.
Either way, that fact doesn't improve the downward spiral our domestic economy is on.
It will mean though that we can get enough cash to keep the vested interests in this country happy.

I'm at the protest.

Big turnout.

K-9

gerryo777 wrote: »

My God what, K9?

How does that solve our problems?

We can borrow at 3% or so from the ESM when it's set up or 4-5% from the markets.
Either way, that fact doesn't improve the downward spiral our domestic economy is on.
It will mean though that we can get enough cash to keep the vested interests in this country happy.

I just give up.

K-9 wrote: »

I just give up.

Fair enough.

Ok, can any pro-taxers on this thread show me how 4 years of austerity has improved things on the ground here?

Unemployment is stuck around 15% and that's only because 200,000 odd people have emigrated.
We have a broken, non-functioning banking sector.
We have a health service that's in chaos.
We have a domestic economy that is on it's knees.
We have a myriad of new taxes sucking the life out of the said economy.
We have massive mortgage arrears, a situation that is getting worse by the day.
Need I go on?
Things are just fine here, we're on the up lads. Even enda got himself on the cover of time magazine. Sorted!

Had to snap this placard.:D

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Had to snap this placard.:D

Ha brilliant

larry_duff wrote: »

the problem is very simple

we had a short term period of unsustainable high revenues by way of a false and completley unsustainable property boom which became a bubble in which time goverment spending went out of control , that source of revenue is gone and is never coming back yet we have not yet cut spending in line with our reduced level of revenue

even the banking disaster never occured , we would need to cut and cut , trouble is , its a lot easier to give a dog a bone than take it back , people have become accustomed to high wages and wellfare

AND the cost of living is still rising. Prices going up all the time. No job creation or investment whatsoever. We are fueling the out-of-control fire. But our Govt continues to do what doesn't work and people are well aware of that.

Maggie 2

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm at the protest.

Big turnout.

RTE says about 8,000 there.
Gone up to 18,000 now.

Maggie 2 wrote: »

RTE says about 8,000 there.

You can always double what RTE and The Garda say regarding the size of crowds. It's Govt propaganda to play down the size of a protest.

gerryo777 wrote: »

Ok, can any pro-taxers on this thread show me how 4 years of austerity has improved things on the ground here?

My, you are determined to set that snake loose. :pac:

gerryo777 wrote: »

You can always double what RTE and The Garda say regarding the size of crowds. It's Govt propaganda to play down the size of a protest.

Well the IT are saying 4,000 so let's go with that.

Maggie 2

Of course the Pay for Nothing, Expect Everything free brigade wasting more taxpayers money with pointless posteuring.

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Of course the Pay for Nothing, Expect Everything free brigade wasting more taxpayers money with pointless posteuring.

A lot of that could be down to the way it's being spent and the Enda rewards those who disgrace his party. Maybe he doesn't see her actions as disgraceful at all and as fitting of a reward ---

http://www.galwaynews.ie/28978-healy-eames-lead-education-delegation-china

5 k a head it seems plus the usual expenses.

dxhound2005

gerryo777 wrote: »

Fair enough.

Ok, can any pro-taxers on this thread show me how 4 years of austerity has improved things on the ground here?

Unemployment is stuck around 15% and that's only because 200,000 odd people have emigrated.
We have a broken, non-functioning banking sector.
We have a health service that's in chaos.
We have a domestic economy that is on it's knees.
We have a myriad of new taxes sucking the life out of the said economy.
We have massive mortgage arrears, a situation that is getting worse by the day.
Need I go on?
Things are just fine here, we're on the up lads. Even enda got himself on the cover of time magazine. Sorted!

What period does your 200,000 figure cover and how many left to get work? The population has increased by over 1 million in the last 20 years (340,000, 8.2% between censuses of 2006 and 2011 alone) and is continuing to increase. Any analysis of unemployment rates would have to take this into account if you think the numbers leaving is relevant to the percentage.

Also a few years back when hundreds of thousands of workers from abroad were getting jobs here the unemployment rate was still 4%. So is the real rate 15% now? The numbers in work went up by something like 800,000 before falling back in the last few years. I always like to look at the positive side , probably 90% of those that want to work have a job and the numbers working in the economy have increased massively because of population increase.

Overall I don't think this indicates an economy on it's knees. In fact there was research published during the week showing one third of food bought is being thown away so things can't be that desperate. "Massive mortgage arrears" is a bit vague, the number in any sort of arrears is about 14% apparently and about one third of homes are owned mortgage free. This shouldn't impact greatly in general on homeowners abilitly to pay €100 HHC. I know you are using myriad (10,000) as a figure of speech but it is an indication of your propensity for exaggeration.

People are leaving and coming in as well.

http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasecensus2011profile6migrationanddiversity/

Non-Irish nationals living in Ireland

There were a total of 544,357 non-Irish nationals living in Ireland in April 2011, representing 199 different nations.

The growth in the number of non-Irish nationals has continued since 2006, albeit at a slower pace than earlier years. Total numbers increased by 124,624 over the five years to April 2011 which represents a rise of 30 per cent.

lugha wrote: »

My, you are determined to set that snake loose. :pac:

Well the IT are saying 4,000 so let's go with that.

Using other peoples posts now and claiming they're mine?

lugha wrote: »

My, you are determined to set that snake loose. :pac:

I'll take it you can't show any improvement then.

There's between 20-30,000 here easily.

Maggie 2

Ghandee wrote: »

There's between 20-30,000 here easily.

Still a poor turnout.

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Of course the Pay for Nothing, Expect Everything free brigade wasting more taxpayers money with pointless posteuring.

Wtf are you blathering on about now?

I drove from my home to red cow (diesel) and then took the luas into town. Neither of which were free.

Dublin city centre should be glad of the extra revenue it should be reaping in today.
Myself and four others have just sat down to get a dinner, and I'll prob do a bit of shopping afterwards.

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Still a poor turnout.

Its four times bigger than your initial claim.

You haven't a clue what you're on about half the time on this thread. Make crazy accusations and assumptions without backing anything up, then disappear again for weeks at a time.