Slick50 wrote: » There is one glaringly obvious difference, SQ is being asked to repay monies that he borowed. He entered into a contract to do so. I for one did not.
Slick50 wrote: » That is what this thread is about.
lugha wrote: » Not so. SQ is in the clink because he disobeyed a court order. It has nothing to do with any contract he did or did not enter into. And you implicitly accept by being resident in a state that you will abide by the rules of that state, even the ones you don’t like. You may not call it a contract but you are bound by these rules (and for the most part, people accept this) every bit as much as someone who signs a formal contract. Yes. But we are being told that this Saturday protest is a wider campaign against austerity (i.e. efforts to stop spending more money that you raise!!). I don’t dispute that there are alternatives to property tax, only that they are not better than property tax. I do dispute that there is a real alternative to either cuts in spending, higher taxes of both. Some make a valid argument that removing money from the economy, however it is done, is destructive. But what choice do we have if our lenders demand that we do. (Can I ask would you, if you had savings, lend money to the Irish state to over-spend by 20 billion a year more than they raised in taxes, if they insisted that they were going to do nothing to close the deficit? I know I wouldn’t. And I don’t think many would.)
tayto lover wrote: » Could you provide a link to show that we are spending 20 billion a year more than we are raising in taxes please?
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » How can you claim that the household charge isn't going to local authorities, when its clearly listed in their funding allocations and those counties that don't reach a certain level get their funding cut? How can you claim that the money is going to banks when we haven't given them a cent since it wa introduced? We've been through this already. Only this morning.
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » Taxpayers money they got before the HHC was introduced.
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » Aaaaand the goalposts move again....
gerryo777 wrote: » Noonan himself has said that taxpayers money is going to pay bankers.
lugha wrote: » We are not now. I think it is about 13 billion atm. But we would be if we decided not to bother making any adjustments to our budget 4 years ago AND (big, big and) we somehow found some very, very rich people who were regularly dropped on their heads as children who were prepared to lend us that kind of money to continue on our merry way.
K-9 wrote: » It pays for the staff canteen as well.
tayto lover wrote: » Enda actually drove in his brand new car to open the homeless shelter today. One bystander complimented him on the beauty and size of the car. Enda said "well if you all work hard and do extra hours and pay your Property Taxes I can get an even bigger car next year".
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » Even if it was going into a central funding pot, then it still isn't being used to prop up AIB's pension fund. AIB received its last bailout long before the Household Charge was introduced, indeed before the current government was elected.
darkhorse wrote: » But Vlad, whether AIB got the money before or after the HHC was introduced, its borrowed money, and we the taxpayer are paying it back. It just seems to me that some people are paying it back a bit quicker than others and in bigger quantities. Thats my take on it anyway. As regards it not being used to prop up AIBs pension fund, did not the minister of finance clarify this.
tayto lover wrote: » So we are not spending 20 billion a year more than we are taking in taxes. Thanks.
lugha wrote: » Not so. SQ is in the clink because he disobeyed a court order. It has nothing to do with any contract he did or did not enter into. And you implicitly accept by being resident in a state that you will abide by the rules of that state, even the ones you don’t like. You may not call it a contract but you are bound by these rules (and for the most part, people accept this) every bit as much as someone who signs a formal contract.
lugha wrote: » Yes. But we are being told that this Saturday protest is a wider campaign against austerity (i.e. efforts to stop spending more money that you raise!!). I don’t dispute that there are alternatives to property tax, only that they are not better than property tax. I do dispute that there is a real alternative to either cuts in spending, higher taxes of both.
lugha wrote: » (Can I ask would you, if you had savings, lend money to the Irish state to over-spend by 20 billion a year more than they raised in taxes, if they insisted that they were going to do nothing to close the deficit? I know I wouldn’t. And I don’t think many would.)
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » I was responding to assertions HHC money was going to the banks. Off topic, since it wasn't financed by the HHC, but I believe AIB wa right to bail out it's pension fund.
Ghandee wrote: » The last unsecured bondholders (AIB) was made when?
darkhorse wrote: » I know. Pick me, Pick me. €1 Billion on the 01/10/2012.:eek:
gerryo777 wrote: » Not my staff canteen! I pay for that myself. Mind you, it's a lot cheaper now that I'm not employing the 15 staff I was before the economy collapsed.
K-9 wrote: » We did a couple of years ago. Its expected to be €13 Billion this year. What we are doing clearly isn't working, what with the deficit significantly reduced as you highlighted and bond rates at near affordable levels. I'm sure some rant will deflect away from those facts, a fact you highlighted.
lugha wrote: » But it is the next bit that where the details are a bit sketchy. A new government is formed and there is no more austerity! And we find a generous lender who will happily lend to us as we spend more than we raise. You couldn’t give us an ‘aul one-liner as to how that will work, could you? Funny you should mention that. I had an idea this morning. Next June, the G8 is in Fermanagh. As the hotel that they are in is only a half hour away from where I am, what I was thinking was, drive up there, meet the boys and girls, ask each one of them for a lend of 10 billion each and ask them to put it on the long finger, should bring us through the next few years, what ya think.
Funny you should mention that. I had an idea this morning. Next June, the G8 is in Fermanagh. As the hotel that they are in is only a half hour away from where I am, what I was thinking was, drive up there, meet the boys and girls, ask each one of them for a lend of 10 billion each and ask them to put it on the long finger, should bring us through the next few years, what ya think.
K-9 wrote: » What sector where you in?
Slick50 wrote: » I understand he is in jail for contempt of court (as we are told we will be if we fail to pay when/if ordered to), but it most certainly is related to his contracts, he would never have been in court in the first place only for them. He wanted to put as much cash/assets as possible beyond the reach of the state, rather than using them to offset his debts.
Slick50 wrote: » The protest is to demonstrate to the government the general dissatisfaction with how they are handling things. There does have to be cut backs and extra revenue raised, people in general are not happy with how they are going about it.
darkhorse wrote: » Funny you should mention that. I had an idea this morning. Next June, the G8 is in Fermanagh. As the hotel that they are in is only a half hour away from where I am, what I was thinking was, drive up there, meet the boys and girls, ask each one of them for a lend of 10 billion each and ask them to put it on the long finger, should bring us through the next few years, what ya think.
