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Having to go to church: Should I stand?

Rory McNicholas

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

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grindle

Tasden wrote: »

It doesn't remove your rights to believe anything. I still don't believe in god whether I'm standing or kneeling or sitting.

It doesn't remove my right of belief, it does remove my right to move freely (or it would if I subscribed to the notion that I should learn the Catholic Macarena).

If churches were to enforce the kneel-stand-sit-pray by threat of ejection, I'd understand and stay away, but they don't.
I appear to be able to sit. Quietly. Not bothering anybody apart from obsessively pious control-freaks (and their "ah sher, would you not just..." friends).

Dades

Standing is definitely a universal mark of respect. People do it all the time outside of churches and probably don't even notice.

Kneeling is a definite display of submission. Personally I feel no human should ever have to kneel in front of another unless it's Ned Stark. People who wish to can of course do it, but it's a gesture that should never be forced on anyone on the basis of tradition or manners no matter what.

It's all very...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFyHTU8tg_0

J0hnick

lazygal wrote: »

I stand but don't kneel. To pardon a pun, kneeling doesn't sit well with me-I'd feel the same about a curtsey to a monarch. Just seems subservient-at least a monarch is actually in front of you but kneeling before a supernatural being seems odd.
.

100% agreed, but have you ever been in a situation were you had a gun to your head and were made kneel ?. If so what did you do, or what would you do, and did/would it piss you off ?, it definitely did to me.

lazygal wrote: »

I confine my eye rolling to the debriefing on the way home in the car and scoff on my own time.

And I have done exactly the same thing every time I have had to attend a wedding or funeral for the past 10+ years Ive been an atheist, except on this one occasion.

lazygal wrote: »

I'd have been mighty insulted if a guest at my non-church wedding spent their time huffing and puffing, throwing their eyes up to heaven and muttering insults under their breath when the guests were asked to stand when we said our vows or pause for a moment to remember those who aren't with us anymore.

If I said muttering, I meant huffing and puffing (quietly) as I didn't actually say any coherent words, even under my breath, I wasnt even aware I was doing it.

But please, I didn't mutter direct insults nor would I, and I was completely respectful during the moment of silence for the dead. Was this aimed at me or someone else ?, because If it was I never mentioned direct insults or not respecting the dead, so please don't sex up or put legs on my story.

Ellis Dee

I only go when it's a funeral of someone that mattered a lot to me or to those close to me.

Not wanting to rock the boat too much on such occasions, I stand and kneel and grunt a bit in more or less rhythm with everyone else so that I don't stand out as too much of a square peg in a round hole.:) Or should that be round peg in a square hole?

I find a few puffs of a joint just beforehand adds to the essential surrealism of the whole occasion.;);)

Choose your battles.:D

longhalloween

I don't get some atheist's attitude to church.

I only go to mass the odd time with family, I don't believe in God, but when I'm there I play along with with the routine out of respect for them.

Same if I went to a Muslim or Jewish wedding. While I don't believe in their faiths I have some respect for the other people there who do and would do my best not to be sitting sullenly in the corner.

If you're not going to participate on some level at least, then why go?

lazygal

J0hnick wrote: »

100% agreed, but have you ever been in a situation were you had a gun to your head and were made kneel ?. If so what did you do, or what would you do, and did/would it piss you off ?, it definitely did to me.

And I have done exactly the same thing every time I have had to attend a wedding or funeral for the past 10+ years Ive been an atheist, except on this one occasion.

If I said muttering, I meant huffing and puffing (quietly) as I didn't actually say any coherent words, even under my breath, I wasnt even aware I was doing it.

But please, I didn't mutter direct insults nor would I, and I was completely respectful during the moment of silence for the dead. Was this aimed at me or someone else ?, because If it was I never mentioned direct insults or not respecting the dead, so please don't sex up or put legs on my story.

I wasn't speaking directly to your post, I meant my comments in a more general way.

TheChizler

longhalloween wrote: »

I don't get atheists...

...I don't believe in God...

longhalloween

TheChizler wrote: »

clarified...

Handsome Bob

I stand and kneel as they are meaningless gestures to me, but I understand that they are meaningful to others. I don't understand where some are coming from when they say they do the former but not the latter. If you see kneeling as submissive then why not standing? They are both orders at the end of the day. The way I see it, you should be ok with both or neither.

I only draw the line at holy communion, I will not take it, be it wedding or funeral.

LittleBook

On the rare occasions I attend mass I stand, I don't kneel. To my knowledge it's not even noticed, never mind commented upon.

OU812 wrote: »

I'll even unenthusastically shake hands

Actually, this is the one part I still enjoy. There just aren't enough opportunities these days to look someone in the eye, smile and sincerely wish them peace.

kylith wrote: »

I too will stand, but not kneel. I mentally renovate the church into a house to pass the time.

I'm sure I'll get to that point but (since I attend so rarely) I still find it fascinating to listen to the words of the mass, observe those attending and their responses and have a good goo at the art and architecture. Nothing convinced me more that I had no time for religion than actually paying attention to what was being said.

Zillah wrote: »

Also, did someone bus in people from another forum or something?

Things can get quite deep here in A&A. I think this is just one of those basic topics that even the noobiest of noobs (like me) has something to share on.

grindle

longhalloween wrote: »

If you're not going to participate on some level at least, then why go?

For a wedding, you're invited, and you are participating by being there, to feel connected to these people (without the aerobics - is that even possible?).

For a funeral, you go as a mark of respect, and are participating by being there.

Baptisms, Communions, etc. invited, participating by being there.

Everybody knows the after-party is the important part.

The only one I truly hate is anniversary masses (normal mass with the name of a relative! Woo!), as those are in Cashel (beautiful church - still quite full, even these days) and the priest knows his audience.
They love a good, lonnnnnnnng mass. The last anniversary mass I went to was 1h20m long. Seriously. Just so I could sit for an hour, hear a name, wait twenty minutes, escape.
The statues are nice in there, but I'm always hungover that morning (family get-together excuse), so they creep me out.

longhalloween

grindle wrote: »

For a wedding, you're invited, and you are participating by being there, to feel connected to these people (without the aerobics - is that even possible?).

For a funeral, you go as a mark of respect, and are participating by being there.

Baptisms, Communions, etc. invited, participating by being there.

Everybody knows the after-party is the important part.

Yeah, but presumably the church ceremony means something to the bride/groom/deceased so would you not do the whole stand/kneel routine out of respect for them, even if you don't personally believe?

Saves you sitting down for the whole ceremony, bit of a chance to stretch the legs.

Gbear

We had an "end of year mass" at the end of 6th year and I was really not inclined to be in any way acquiescent. It was tagged on to a more general celebration of us finishing school.
I was forced to be there and any notion of respect went out the window as a result (what about respect for me?). I sat the whole way through, including causing people to squeeze by me when they were going up for communion.

I fashioned a hole in my school jumper to covertly squeeze an earphone through so I didn't have to listen to the droning.

I'm happy enough to humour people if it's my choice to go but I was fairly pissed off about having to attend that load of ****e and also, that I felt like bull**** hijacked what had no reason to be a religious ceremony.

Andrewf20

Oops, looks like I voted incorrectly. No praying at the moment but I do everything else.

grindle

longhalloween wrote: »

Yeah, but presumably the church ceremony means something to the bride/groom/deceased so would you not do the whole stand/kneel routine out of respect for them, even if you don't personally believe?

Saves you sitting down for the whole ceremony, bit of a chance to stretch the legs.

Maybe I've an easy-going family or something, but the older generations are the only ones that ask "Why?" and when I tell them they shrug and go "Okay."

They don't seem to care too much, and they shouldn't.
If they're secretly moaning about it behind my back, that's down to their own thoughtlessness/delusions.
Judging from this thread they probably (probably definitely) have me marked as being "difficult" and they're used to it, but I'm not the one parading their undying belief in the infallibility of badly-written fiction, or the lemming apologists: "Ah go on, sher we're all doing it! You spin around thirteen times, walk up and down the aisles thrice and there we go! Society Fulfillment Achievement Unlocked! You're just being difficult!".
Those kinds of people sound difficult to me.

I find enough room to stretch my legs in the pews as it is and use my coat as a cushion (wooden benches, in this day and age), but good tip for those 6ft+ maybe.

Dades

S. De Sousa wrote: »

I stand and kneel as they are meaningless gestures to me, but I understand that they are meaningful to others. I don't understand where some are coming from when they say they do the former but not the latter. If you see kneeling as submissive then why not standing? They are both orders at the end of the day. The way I see it, you should be ok with both or neither.

Did you read any of the posts which address the difference?

There's nothing submissive about standing. People do it all the time. When a certain person walks into a room... when being introduced to someone... after a good speech. It's about courtesy, respect, or appreciation. What kind of social situations call for people to kneel?

S. De Sousa wrote: »

I only draw the line at holy communion, I will not take it, be it wedding or funeral.

Why do you draw the line at getting Holy Communion but not pretending to pray on your knees? Show some respect for this meaningless gesture!

Handsome Bob

Dades wrote: »

Did you read any of the posts which address the difference?

There's nothing submissive about standing. People do it all the time. When a certain person walks into a room... when being introduced to someone... after a good speech. It's about courtesy, respect, or appreciation. What kind of social situations call for people to kneel?

Why do you draw the line at getting Holy Communion but not pretending to pray on your knees? Show some respect for this meaningless gesture!

Yes I did read previous posts, I'm not sure you read mine though. My point was that you're being ordered to kneel and to stand. Social situations do not come into it. You either reject or accept both orders, they're as submissive as each other.

As for communion, it's about accepting Jesus as my martyr and saviour, that's why I draw the line. Kneeling and standing is trivial on the other hand, it means nothing.

robindch

S. De Sousa wrote: »

You either reject or accept both orders, they're as submissive as each other.

No, they're not. Standing is not generally understood as a submissive gesture, unlike kneeling. If you reckon that standing is submissive, then add a passive aggressive indicator like folded arms, hands clasped behind your back with chest out, or something like that. Hands clasped in front, however, shoulders bent forward is submissive.

And of course, there's the hands clasped, palm to palm together, pointing upwards in front -- that's insanely submissive and is generally regarded has having derived from the gesture that prisoners with their wrists tied together were inevitably forced to make -- thereby indicating submission. Inevitably, lots of other religions do the praying-hands thing too:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/271624.html
http://www.stjosephsite.com/SJS_Articles_prayinghands.htm
http://www.trivia-library.com/a/why-does-a-person-join-his-hands-when-praying.htm

"servitude, submission and inability to hold a weapon". Says it all really

McG

whole shebang, I like the taste of the the little discs and the least they can do after all that standing and kneeling is feed me.

Get Real

I personally would just do both gestures. Your parents respect that youre an atheist and thats really good, so i guess there's nothing wrong with a bit of standing and kneeling. Its not being forced on you its just a nice gesture to respect others beliefs.

It'd be like if I was a guest at some family's house in say...Turkey, they'd know im not of their religion, I'd know I'm not, but I wouldnt have a problem doing as they do. As a way of saying ok i dont believe in this but I respect you by part taking with you. And funnily enough, I think respect would overshadow religion and make it obsolete. Instead of oh here's jim he's an aethiest, christian, muslim, jew, etc, it'd be here's jim, he came to such and such with me today and we bonded over it, i learned someting about his beliefs and him about mine. we're different but its cool.

looksee

If you are going to go to a wedding the least you can do is exercise common courtesy and behave in the way that is expected. If you don't want to do that then excuse yourself from the ceremony, or just don't go - no-one is going to notice.

If you went to another persons house in a formal situation would you take off your shoes, spread yourself out on the sofa and take over the remote control?

Dades

S. De Sousa wrote: »

Yes I did read previous posts, I'm not sure you read mine though. My point was that you're being ordered to kneel and to stand. Social situations do not come into it. You either reject or accept both orders, they're as submissive as each other.

There's a big freakin' difference between being ordered to stand and ordered to kneel!

S. De Sousa wrote: »

As for communion, it's about accepting Jesus as my martyr and saviour, that's why I draw the line. Kneeling and standing is trivial on the other hand, it means nothing.

But kneeling is about submission to God? It's not done for the craic. It's as much a statement about your belief as queuing up for a wafer.

Zamboni

looksee wrote: »

If you are going to go to a wedding the least you can do is exercise common courtesy and behave in the way that is expected. If you don't want to do that then excuse yourself from the ceremony, or just don't go - no-one is going to notice.

Luckily enough the average 'catholic' couple getting married in a church these days barely know the rituals themselves.

seamus

Standing in a group context has a social meaning of sharing a celebration as a group. To have a group all stand together is a sign of unity - hence a standing ovation, standing for a toast, etc.

Kneeling on the other hand typically is a social display of submission and vulnerability and its position in the mass is a display of one's submission before God, as to pray in any other position would be a statement of equality or non-submission.

Two very different things tbh. Even if you don't believe in any of the nonsense, there are subtle social signals at play and most people are far less comfortable kneeling than standing.

krudler

Have fun with it, stand, sit and kneel at all the wrong intervals just to see how many people bewilderlingly follow you, mass sheep, great craic.

Korvanica

The shaking hands bit is great fun. Everyone seems to be in a great mood after it...

That should be the whole mass. Just wandering around the church shaking everyones hands.

Dades

Korvanica wrote: »

The shaking hands bit is great fun. Everyone seems to be in a great mood after it...

That's because it's done near the end!

TwoShedsJackson

longhalloween wrote: »

I only go to mass the odd time with family, I don't believe in God, but when I'm there I play along with with the routine out of respect for them.

Are you not disrespecting the Church and/or believers by just 'playing along with the routine'?

Real Life

If i have to go to church il usually try stand at the back so i dont have to take part but if i do end up sitting down i just stay sitting.

Real Life

Korvanica wrote: »

The shaking hands bit is great fun. Everyone seems to be in a great mood after it...

That should be the whole mass. Just wandering around the church shaking everyones hands.

and saying please to meet you instead of peace be with you