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Having to go to church: Should I stand?

Rory McNicholas

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

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Dades

Tasden wrote: »

I voted wrong due to my fat fingers and it won't let me change it! Oops!

Sorry - can't help!

seamus

Initially, and for the first few years that I had officially renouncing the church I made a point of not standing whenever I would be dragged into a church for whatever ceremony.

I eventually realised that this makes the people around you quite uncomfortable, so now I stand if only for that sake. Making the people around you uncomfortable is fine is you want to make a point, but otherwise unnecessarily disruptive. There's no need to kneel, so I don't.

I'll usually now opt to stand at the back of the church, or if it's quite empty I'll take a pew near the back or at the side where not standing won't bother anyone.
The wife did in the past make quite a song and dance about me attending her grandfather's memorial mass (note, I never met the man), and her mother likes to sit front row centre at any gig, so my lack of standing really grated on them. I just don't bother going now.

nozzferrahhtoo

Tasden wrote: »

I voted wrong due to my fat fingers and it won't let me change it! Oops!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DtbPOXFk00

The Big Red Button

If I'm going to go to a religious ceremony, I'll respect the beliefs of those around me.

If it's a catholic mass ceremony, I'll sit when others do, I'll stand when others do.

When they kneel, I guess I kinda slouch forward to get out of the way of the person behind me.

I won't take communion - while it would mean nothing to me, it would seem very disrespectful of others there who actually believe in transubstantiaion etc.

I don't chant along with the prayers, responses, etc.

But I'd never purposely do anything to offend other people there, I'd never attempt to draw attention to myself, I wouldn't want to make a point that I'm not catholic (or whatever religion.) It's not the time or place for it. If I go to the ceremony, I'm there as a guest/visitor, and it's important to me to have manners and be respectful of others' beliefs.

I've been to two catholic masses in the past five years - one wedding and one funeral. Neither lasted more than an hour. It's such an insignificant amount of time, and I have no problem with respecting the customs/beliefs of those I care about, whatever they might be.

jacool

Dades wrote: »

Sorry - can't help!

You could offer some dietary tips.

Zillah

See, it's a damn tricky situation.

The Church basically blackmails you into submitting to its authority and prominence by kidnapping essential rituals. In the example in the OP: You have a choice of A) Going to the mass and doing all the stuff (despite your opposition to the Church),

Going to the mass and not doing the stuff (offending people) or C) Not going to the mass (offending people). So you can bow and scrape to a priest or you can offend your family and friends. It's a vicious little arrangement they have for themselves. Respect for the dead becomes respect for the Church. Celebration of a marriage becomes celebration of the Church. Celebration of a birth becomes celebration of the Church.

****. Unfortunately the best choice is to toe the line and do the minimum amount of bowing and scraping necessary, which flies in the face of some strongly held principles but what can I do? That's the nature of blackmail, someone forces you to do something that you are deeply opposed to.

Tasden

Zamboni wrote: »

The 'what' really doesn't matter. It's the symbolism I won't adhere to.

But if its a symbol of submission to god then it doesn't really matter if there is no god. If you mean submission to social norms then fair enough. I was just asking for more clarity really cause saying you won't kneel cause its an act of submission to god when you don't believe in god doesn't really make sense to me.

Dades, that's ok I know you can't change it was just letting it be known!

As for the diet advice, its only the fingers that are fat!

Zillah

Tasden wrote: »

But if its a symbol of submission to god then it doesn't really matter if there is no god. If you mean submission to social norms then fair enough. I was just asking for more clarity really cause saying you won't kneel cause its an act of submission to god when you don't believe in god doesn't really make sense to me.

Dades, that's ok I know you can't change it was just letting it be known!

As for the diet advice, its only the fingers that are fat!

It is submission to The Church, the priest and their authority/validity that I have a problem with.

Tasden

Zillah wrote: »

It is submission to The Church, the priest and their authority/validity that I have a problem with.

Fair enough, makes sense.

J0hnick

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's a ritual, participation in which involves more than mere presence. Obviously an atheist will want to avoid anything which is inherently offensive to them, or which it would be simply dishonest of them to do - e.g. receiving communion, leading a prayer - but, up to that point, the point about participating in a communal ritual is that you participate in it. So if part of the shared experience is shared posture - standing, sitting, kneeling - then I suggest the default should be that you adopt the common posture, unless it would be inherently dishonest or offensive.

A lot of contributors to this thread seem happy to stand, but not to kneel, and I think that makes sense, though obviously everyone must make up their own mind about what is dishonest for them.

Avoid the eye-rolling, face-palming, etc. That's just childish. The healthiest attitude is that you will participate in this ritual to the fullest extent that your convictions allow, because the ritual, and the event it marks, matters to you and to your family or community. If you can't or won't participate in that spirit it would probably be wiser, and would certainly be more virtuous, to stay away

I agree 100%, that's exactly what I did at every other church service I've had to attend since I went from being agnostic to full blown atheist 10 years ago. Most of these occasions were for members of my own family and close friends, the vast majority of which are cultural Catholics and don't attend church on a regular basis themselves except for weddings, funerals or their kids communions or confirmations. None of them have ever given me any issues with not kneeling or staying silent while everyone else prays, in fact I could always spot at least one other person in the church doing the same so I assumed there would always be at least one other atheist there.

There have only been 2 exceptions, my father in laws funeral some years back and the wedding I mentioned earlier. At the funeral, it was in another part of the country and whilst most of my family was there, the majority of people were family and friends of my father in law and they were obviously more religious then us. I was worried about what might happen if I didn't kneel before going into the church, but after a couple of minutes the church was so full I saw some people had to stand at the back because there was no more seats left, so I decided to stand with them for the entire service. Despite giving up my seat beside my dad to stand beside some farmer who needed a shower, the service went off without a hitch, and quicker then normal to my delight.

The wedding was a different story, my girlfriend knows I'm an atheist and has seen how I act in church by standing up and sitting down with everyone else, but remaining seated when everyone else kneels, and remaining silent when everyone else prays. Shes never had a problem with it until that occasion, possibly because all the other times it was her attending services for my family and friends and this time it was me with all her family and friends, who are much more religious then mine. When it came to the kneeling part and I hesitated till I was the last man standing, she gave me a look. If the look was more along the lines of "I know your an atheist but as a 1 off can you kneel like the rest of us to save me embarrassment ?, my family and friends are obviously more holy then yours" I would have done it albeit begrudgingly, but the look I actually got was "Why aren't you kneeling ?, everyone else is kneeling, are you going to make a show of me in front of my family ?" which basically put a gun to my head and made me angry.

In the past when Ive been I'm sitting instead of kneeling, I usually fold my arms and bow my head if I hear something outlandish by the priest or Choir or the readings. Ive been told I look like I'm praying, which is a good disguise, as I'm actually hiding my face from everyone else so they don't see any of the expressions I want to make like eye-rolling or face-palming.

No offense, you may see that last part as childish, but I find it childish that some adults still have an imaginary friend and offensive that they expect me to kneel to their imaginary friend when I wouldn't kneel to a real person in the real world, or their imaginary friend even if he really existed. If I ever do kneel, it will only be on 1 knee when I pop the question to the misses, that's it.

Otacon

Personally, I stand, kneel, mumble incoherent nonsense etc. While I respect the people there, I don't share their beliefs. It is meaningless to me. If they get comfort or hope or anything from the whole charade, why not play along? None of the activities harm me particularly so I just think about Munster or Ireland's next rugby game and who I think should start.

Penn

If I somehow managed to find myself at a normal everyday Mass, I'd probably stand but not kneel. Funerals/weddings/baptisms though, I'll kneel. Not out of any sort of submission to God, but out of respect of the people I'm in the church for. I understand the symbolism of submitting to God, but I know that that's not what I'm doing, so kneeling is just kneeling. My beliefs are my beliefs and they'll still be true whether I sit, stand, kneel, dodge, duck, dip, dive or... dodge.

I won't join in prayers, go up for Communion or bless myself though, as that would be more disrespectful, but would also be minor unnoticable things which would be unlikely to cause offence

Zamboni

Tasden wrote: »

But if its a symbol of submission to god then it doesn't really matter if there is no god. If you mean submission to social norms then fair enough. I was just asking for more clarity really cause saying you won't kneel cause its an act of submission to god when you don't believe in god doesn't really make sense to me.

I just don't do submission. To anything.

[Deleted User]

I stand but don't kneel.
Surprised people have got guff about it here. Plenty of older folk have bad enough knees they can't kneel and need to sit.
Last wedding I was at catered for non believers to a degree in that we had to queue for communion but just nod at the priest and keep going if we weren't getting it, I think. And plenty of us didn't. Nobody cared about the sitting.

lazygal

I stand but don't kneel. To pardon a pun, kneeling doesn't sit well with me-I'd feel the same about a curtsey to a monarch. Just seems subservient-at least a monarch is actually in front of you but kneeling before a supernatural being seems odd.

In recent years I've declined doing readings/prayers of the faithful for weddings/funerals/other services. I don't feel right doing them as I've a lot of contempt for the church. But I respect those who are there out of 'real' faith and stand/sit at the right time, confine my eye rolling to the debriefing on the way home in the car and scoff on my own time.

I'd have been mighty insulted if a guest at my non-church wedding spent their time huffing and puffing, throwing their eyes up to heaven and muttering insults under their breath when the guests were asked to stand when we said our vows or pause for a moment to remember those who aren't with us anymore.

The Big Red Button

J0hnick wrote: »

I agree 100%, that's exactly what I did at every other church service I've had to attend since I went from being agnostic to full blown atheist 10 years ago. Most of these occasions were for members of my own family and close friends, the vast majority of which are cultural Catholics and don't attend church on a regular basis themselves except for weddings, funerals or their kids communions or confirmations. None of them have ever given me any issues with not kneeling or staying silent while everyone else prays, in fact I could always spot at least one other person in the church doing the same so I assumed there would always be at least one other atheist there.

There have only been 2 exceptions, my father in laws funeral some years back and the wedding I mentioned earlier. At the funeral, it was in another part of the country and whilst most of my family was there, the majority of people were family and friends of my father in law and they were obviously more religious then us. I was worried about what might happen if I didn't kneel before going into the church, but after a couple of minutes the church was so full I saw some people had to stand at the back because there was no more seats left, so I decided to stand with them for the entire service. Despite giving up my seat beside my dad to stand beside some farmer who needed a shower, the service went off without a hitch, and quicker then normal to my delight.

The wedding was a different story, my girlfriend knows I'm an atheist and has seen how I act in church by standing up and sitting down with everyone else, but remaining seated when everyone else kneels, and remaining silent when everyone else prays. Shes never had a problem with it until that occasion, possibly because all the other times it was her attending services for my family and friends and this time it was me with all her family and friends, who are much more religious then mine. When it came to the kneeling part and I hesitated till I was the last man standing, she gave me a look. If the look was more along the lines of "I know your an atheist but as a 1 off can you kneel like the rest of us to save me embarrassment ?, my family and friends are obviously more holy then yours" I would have done it albeit begrudgingly, but the look I actually got was "Why aren't you kneeling ?, everyone else is kneeling, are you going to make a show of me in front of my family ?" which basically put a gun to my head and made me angry.

In the past when Ive been I'm sitting instead of kneeling, I usually fold my arms and bow my head if I hear something outlandish by the priest or Choir or the readings. Ive been told I look like I'm praying, which is a good disguise, as I'm actually hiding my face from everyone else so they don't see any of the expressions I want to make like eye-rolling or face-palming.

No offense, you may see that last part as childish, but I find it childish that some adults still have an imaginary friend and offensive that they expect me to kneel to their imaginary friend when I wouldn't kneel to a real person in the real world, or their imaginary friend even if he really existed. If I ever do kneel, it will only be on 1 knee when I pop the question to the misses, that's it.

The amount of 'I's in that post is shocking.

The ceremony wasn't about you, it wasn't even about your girlfriend. It was all about the two people getting married.

If you weren't willing to respect THEM and THEIR beliefs, in THEIR place of worship, on THEIR wedding day, then, quite simply, you should not have been there.

grindle

These are adults. If someone remaining seated offends them, they've got to see a therapist about it.
If someone looks at a seated atheist and thinks anything other than "He/she's a relative or friend, here as a mark of respect but isn't religious.", they've got a god-complex. Which'd be against the rules of their religion.

Offending them would be guffawing through the ceremony, cartwheeling at inopportune moments and/or playing 'Spot The Sausage'.

There's a vast difference between respecting someone's belief and respecting their right to their belief.
I respect their right to their belief. I have zero respect for their actual belief.
Warning:Analogy imminent.
I don't expect vegetarians to eat meat when they're in meat-serving restaurants - why should I? They're vegetarians!
I'm not intrinsically offended by their choice, just quietly dumbfounded by their probably less tasty choice. Just because they're there doesn't mean they should respect my belief, toe the line and enjoy a steak.
Transferring that back to the church, why would anybody with an iota of self-awareness and a granule of empathy expect an atheist to start doing this Catholic Pilates ritual?

Tasden

I think a lot of the time the offence is not due to someone not believing what they believe it is the fact the person is drawing attention (even unintentionally) to themselves at a mass that is for someone else- deceased, bride and groom etc. It seems like the person is just trying to make a point/draw attention to themselves at the expense of the person whos mass it is. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I would think its about rather than the actual beliefs/rituals.

kylith

Dades wrote: »

Now with added poll!

I find that particularly hard (especially at funerals), though generally manage to restrict the eye-rolling to inside my head only.

I tend to have gritted teeth at funerals, listening to the priest go on and on about how the deceased was a great servant, and how they might just have been good enough to get into heaven, and sure, didn't they happily eat all the sh!t God threw their way?

mickoneill30

grindle wrote: »

I don't expect vegetarians to eat meat when they're in meat-serving restaurants - why should I? They're vegetarians!

Bad analogy, meat serving restaurants have a choice. I don't think catholic churches expect you to have a choice. You do have the choice not to go in of course. If you were in a meat serving restaurant that only sold meat and made a point of only selling meat would you expect to go in and say you don't like meat. You could if you want of course.

I'm atheist, I've been to catholic, protestant, muslim & buddhist ceremonies. In each I did what the the people in the ceremony were doing.
I think the kneeling is daft but it makes no difference to me same as the bowing in other religions.
If I felt strongly about the kneeling & bowing I think the smart thing to do would just not go to the ceremonies at all.

grindle

Tasden wrote: »

I think a lot of the time the offence is not due to someone not believing what they believe it is the fact the person is drawing attention (even unintentionally) to themselves at a mass that is for someone else- deceased, bride and groom etc. It seems like the person is just trying to make a point/draw attention to themselves at the expense of the person whos mass it is. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I would think its about rather than the actual beliefs/rituals.

Maybe that's what it is. Still a strange way to think. I do try to get a back-seat so the prissier prigs are unaware of the terrible sitting man, but not out of respect for their beliefs - I'm trying to maintain respect for these people/humans in general myself, and if I found out they'd be offended by a sitting man... I couldn't possibly respect them at all.
Anyway, you must respect their beliefs and let them remove your right to yours according to this.

chatterpillar wrote: »

If you weren't willing to respect THEM and THEIR beliefs, in THEIR place of worship, on THEIR wedding day, then, quite simply, you should not have been there.

Topsy-turvy. They invited him. They didn't invite him in the role of a religious version of him.

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Bad analogy. If you were in a meat serving restaurant that only sold meat and made a point of only selling meat would you expect to go in and say you don't like meat. You could if you want of course.

Strange rebuttal. I've never heard of a meat-only restaurant, where it's impossible to serve a side without meat.
Restaurants [churches] don't just serve meat [prayers and exercise], they also serve vegetables [sitting down quietly, minding your own business].

Zillah

bluewolf wrote: »

I stand but don't kneel.
Surprised people have got guff about it here. Plenty of older folk have bad enough knees they can't kneel and need to sit.
Last wedding I was at catered for non believers to a degree in that we had to queue for communion but just nod at the priest and keep going if we weren't getting it, I think. And plenty of us didn't. Nobody cared about the sitting.

Haha what, they wouldn't just let you stay sitting for communion?

Also, did someone bus in people from another forum or something?

[Deleted User]

Zillah wrote: »

Haha what, they wouldn't just let you stay sitting for communion?

I think they were trying to get everyone involved, I don't know... it probably does mean a logistics hassle if some people are sitting and others have to climb over them

Tasden

grindle wrote: »

...
Anyway, you must respect their beliefs and let them remove your right to yours according to this.

.

It doesn't remove your rights to believe anything. I still don't believe in god whether I'm standing or kneeling or sitting.

J0hnick

grindle wrote: »

Topsy-turvy. They invited him. They didn't invite him in the role of a religious version of him.

Agreed, and thank you for saving me writing a reply

tony81

Given your bad attitude you probably shouldn't have bothered attending. Reeks of hypocrisy.

Zamboni

Anyone else find themselves very conscious of their hands in a church when standing?

I feel awkward just leaving them by my side.
I don't want to put them in my pockets as I think that would be disrespectful.
I am certainly not going to put them into a praying position.
I am conflicted as to whether folded arms is disrespectful or not.

username123

On the rare occasion that I find myself in a church these days, I just sit and observe. I usually try to find a seat at the back or by a wall. I dont engage in any of the ritual, except to actually listen to it (which I suspect a lot of believers do not do) and ponder the strangeness.

In the ultra rare event of finding myself at the top or centre of the church, I wont kneel but I will stand and I dont do communion.

As someone else mentioned, I wouldnt draw attention away from someone elses event so Ill do the bare minimum to avoid being noticed at all.

TheChizler

Zamboni wrote: »

Anyone else find themselves very conscious of their hands in a church when standing?

I feel awkward just leaving them by my side.
I don't want to put them in my pockets as I think that would be disrespectful.
I am certainly not going to put them into a praying position.
I am conflicted as to whether folded arms is disrespectful or not.

Generally holding the other wrist or the back of the hand solemnly works for me.

xxmeabhxx

I kneel and stand but don't go up for communion or pray. When I was in secondary school, a lot of teachers would start off class by making the class stand and say a prayer, those who weren't Catholic stood but didn't pray. They weren't doing anything against their beliefs they were just standing to show some respect for the situation without having to do anything religious. I do think if you're invited to a wedding or baptism or anything in a religious place with different beliefs to your own you should respect that place. You don't have to partake in things like prayers and communion but I think it would be very rude to visibly snicker or eye roll.