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the culture of military obsession

Leftist

Of course I don’t see it as an Irish thing and maybe it's just culturally foreign to me, but social media and media in general from specifically the U.S and to a lesser extent the U.K, is littered with fawning over military.

I get the propaganda comes due to participation in overseas wars (general media), but what I don't get is the lack of perspective (social media) Yes, people conscripted during world wars, fighting an obvious menace are and should be respected. But non-conscripts involved in overseas wars in afghanistan? They don't have to be there.

These people have taken a choice, they are doing a horrible, tough, brutal job, but they are trained killers more or less, involved in operations in countries that have no expansionist policies.

Perhaps I am unreasonable and I am open to debate, please refrain from emotional replies.

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[Deleted User]

Haven't seen any such thing here tbh

gobnaitolunacy

People join the military, esp. the US military for an education. What they get up to in foreign lands with their holiday snaps you would wonder about the standard of that education.

gbee

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I think it is a the kick-ass moment, my father and uncles fought in the last war, my great grandfather was in the Dardanelles, I was in Lahinch with the FCA and was shot at twice, my son is an officer serving currently.

And it's about the weapons, whilst in the US, one can own weapons and go to station to fire and fire weapons, in most of Europe one must be either in the armed services or the armed police unit.

Then there is the bravery, Falklands to Vietnam to Afghanistan, I doubt very much if I'd have done it, though loving the possibility and eagerly looking for the opportunity.

Yakult

Make love not war maaaan

Larianne

gbee wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I think it is a the kick-ass moment, my father and uncles fought in the last war, my great grandfather was in the Dardanelles, I was in Lahinch with the FCA and was shot at twice, my son is an officer serving currently.

And it's about the weapons, whilst in the US, one can own weapons and go to station to fire and fire weapons, in most of Europe one must be either in the armed services or the armed police unit.

Then there is the bravery, Falklands to Vietnam to Afghanistan, I doubt very much if I'd have done it, though loving the possibility and eagerly looking for the opportunity.

By what, a spud gun??

Local-womanizer

Larianne wrote: »

By what, a spud gun??

Probably the RA! Crazy fools!

gbee

Larianne wrote: »

By what, a spud gun??

.303 Full Metal Jacket. My unit was security, we had the weapons and millions of rounds as the regular lads got the .762 ~ happy dazzzzzzzzz

Leftist

gbee wrote: »

Then there is the bravery, Falklands to Vietnam to Afghanistan, I doubt very much if I'd have done it, though loving the possibility and eagerly looking for the opportunity.

no doubt it is brave but so is going into a tough pub and starting a fight with 3 lads. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though.

bluewolf wrote: »

Haven't seen any such thing here tbh

where? in ireland or boards or what?

I have family & friends and have lived in the u.s, you can see it all over american culture even if you don't go there, through social media and the entertainment industry.

Local-womanizer

Leftist wrote: »

no doubt it is brave but so is going into a tough pub and starting a fight with 3 lads. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though.

That's not brave, that's just stupid!

Now, many join the military as its a steady job, a steady wage and you get the chance to do a bit of soldiering.

In the UK many people join as they have little other options available. The whole obsession thing has got to do with the poor pay and support available to someone after coming home from Afghanistan. There is a lack of help for those with psychological trauma and I think the British public realise this. That feeds into it a bit

Scanlas The 2nd

Local-womanizer wrote: »

That's not brave, that's just stupid!

Now, many join the military as its a steady job, a steady wage and you get the chance to do a bit of soldiering.

In the UK many people join as they have little other options available. The whole obsession thing has got to do with the poor pay and support available to someone after coming home from Afghanistan. There is a lack of help for those with psychological trauma and I think the British public realise this. That feeds into it a bit

Of course it's brave, brave and stupid.

MagicMarker

Leftist wrote: »

But non-conscripts involved in overseas wars in afghanistan? They don't have to be there.

Did they all join after the war started or something?

As far as I know, when you join the army, you don't get to pick and choose what war you fight. If someone tells you you're going to Afghanistan, you don't reply "Ah you're grand, I'll sit this one out".

And for those who joined the army after the war started, knowing that they'll more than likely sent to Afghanistan, well, fair fúcking balls to them tbh.

Gyalist

Leftist wrote: »

I have family & friends and have lived in the u.s, you can see it all over american culture even if you don't go there, through social media and the entertainment industry.

I logged into my Flickr account a few minutes ago and because today is a public holiday in the US (Veterans Day) it seemed that every other comment was "Thank you for your service" or some other variant. It really has got out of hand in the past decade or so.

spank_inferno

The 2003 Iraq invasion divided the US.

To detour from this we saw the arrival of the "support our troops" bumper stickers everywhere.

All of a sudden, questioning the merit of that crazy war meant you were against the men & women in Iraq.
Which of course is a big No-No.

Developing this cult of the military. such that everyone who laces up their boots no matter how far away they are from combat is a "Hero" allows the government to get away with a hell of a lot.

Topper Harley

gbee wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I think it is a the kick-ass moment, my father and uncles fought in the last war, my great grandfather was in the Dardanelles, I was in Lahinch with the FCA and was shot at twice, my son is an officer serving currently.

And it's about the weapons, whilst in the US, one can own weapons and go to station to fire and fire weapons, in most of Europe one must be either in the armed services or the armed police unit.

Then there is the bravery, Falklands to Vietnam to Afghanistan, I doubt very much if I'd have done it, though loving the possibility and eagerly looking for the opportunity.

I'm not sure I understand your answer. Not sure if anyone's meant to though.

Kick-ass moment?

Shot while in the FCA in Lahinch?

And "loving the possibility and eagerly looking for the opportunity" to what? Go to Afganistan? With the FCA?

SafeSurfer

Leftist wrote: »

These people have taken a choice, they are doing a horrible, tough, brutal job, but they are trained killers more or less, involved in operations in countries that have no expansionist policies.

Perhaps I am unreasonable and I am open to debate, please refrain from emotional replies.

I am by no means a military interventionist but some of the countries where foreign troops are now based have had expansionist policies.

Regimes like the Taliban supported the global imposition of Sharia Law.

allibastor

Leftist wrote: »

Of course I don’t see it as an Irish thing and maybe it's just culturally foreign to me, but social media and media in general from specifically the U.S and to a lesser extent the U.K, is littered with fawning over military.

I get the propaganda comes due to participation in overseas wars (general media), but what I don't get is the lack of perspective (social media) Yes, people conscripted during world wars, fighting an obvious menace are and should be respected. But non-conscripts involved in overseas wars in afghanistan? They don't have to be there.

These people have taken a choice, they are doing a horrible, tough, brutal job, but they are trained killers more or less, involved in operations in countries that have no expansionist policies.

Perhaps I am unreasonable and I am open to debate, please refrain from emotional replies.

Its is a great way to cull out the lower un-educated classes. they will either end up doing something good and earn a living and education, or will end up as a target dummy. Either way, you dont get alot of college educated people going into the G.I. they will go for officer training.

Hippies!

Chicks dig the uniform, that's what the army is for. None of this war stuff, that's a bit ghey in fairness...stuck out in a battlefield with a load of lads. I'd rather call of duty, way better graphics.

Topper Harley

spank_inferno wrote: »

The 2003 Iraq invasion divided the US.

To detour from this we saw the arrival of the "support our troops" bumper stickers everywhere.

All of a sudden, questioning the merit of that crazy war meant you were against the men & women in Iraq.
Which of course is a big No-No.

Developing this cult of the military. such that everyone who laces up their boots no matter how far away they are from combat is a "Hero" allows the government to get away with a hell of a lot.

This is probably somewhat true but a lot of people will make a distinction that they support the troops but not the war.

The fact is, a lot, if not most, of those troops have signed up to the military straight out of school with no other opportunities and hoping to get a third level education out of it.

Grayson

Leftist wrote: »

Of course I don’t see it as an Irish thing and maybe it's just culturally foreign to me, but social media and media in general from specifically the U.S and to a lesser extent the U.K, is littered with fawning over military.

I get the propaganda comes due to participation in overseas wars (general media), but what I don't get is the lack of perspective (social media) Yes, people conscripted during world wars, fighting an obvious menace are and should be respected. But non-conscripts involved in overseas wars in afghanistan? They don't have to be there.

These people have taken a choice, they are doing a horrible, tough, brutal job, but they are trained killers more or less, involved in operations in countries that have no expansionist policies.

Perhaps I am unreasonable and I am open to debate, please refrain from emotional replies.

In the US active military personal are allowed board a plane first. they're treated the way priests were in ireland 100 years ago. It's a bit nuts. It's a horrible job and i have a lot of respect for the people that do it. But there are loads of horrible jobs. You wouldn't see a doctor with MSF get even half the respect a soldier does.

gbee

Topper Harley wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your answer.

My military career spanned five years, circa 1972, 23Bn Signals/Collins Bks, Cork. There was a lot of changes, we were expecting to reinvade the North, we had a President resign and soon after die and we had a defence minister sacked.

Same minister, in preparing us for our upcoming role said we were "paid assassins!" and we got briefly equipped with the latest new weaponry. During my time five members of the FCA were shot and killed in various actions, some accidents some in exchange of fire.

I was not indenting to give details of my service here, just to outline that I was, and it was great, all of it, the fear, the cold, the wet, the hunger, the food. Food never tasted better.

MikeMichael

There is a dangerous level of natoinalism and military worship forming again in the UK.

squod

http://www.military.ie/overseas
Currently serving in places like the Leb'. Underfunded and at risk. Surely worthy of a bit of fawning OP?

Irish peacekeepers in Lebanon this have taken over control of a crucial United Nations observation post directly on the border with Israel.
From this post, the Irish soldiers will be able to monitor activity in their volatile area of operations where violence can suddenly erupt.
The Irish peacekeepers took over the post from French soldiers attached to the UN. About 30 Irish soldiers will be based here for the duration of the Defence Forces deployment to UNIFIL.
The post is directly beside the Blue Line, the demarcation which separates Lebanon from Israel, which occupied Southern Lebanon for decades till the year 2000

Leftist

MagicMarker wrote: »

As far as I know, when you join the army, you don't get to pick and choose what war you fight. If someone tells you you're going to Afghanistan, you don't reply "Ah you're grand, I'll sit this one out".

.

I don't really understand, is that a joke? of course anyone who joins the army, especially in the US or UK, would realise that they could be involved in a foreign conflict. They know what they are getting into when they join. If they joined prior to 9/11 they could have served in Kosovo or Northern Ireland. Or the gulf war, or the falklands, or vietnam, or korea. Infact they would be lucky if they didn't have a war.

Gyalist wrote: »

I logged into my Flickr account a few minutes ago and because today is a public holiday in the US (Veterans Day) it seemed that every other comment was "Thank you for your service" or some other variant. It really has got out of hand in the past decade or so.

Yes, this is my sentiment too.

Local-womanizer wrote: »

In the UK many people join as they have little other options available. The whole obsession thing has got to do with the poor pay and support available to someone after coming home from Afghanistan. There is a lack of help for those with psychological trauma and I think the British public realise this. That feeds into it a bit

That's a good point, I respect that. It seems, certainly more so in the past that everyone loves the idea of the big strong soldier (fighting for our freedom in afghanistan) but if they come back without legs then let someone else pay for it.

Leftist

squod wrote: »

http://www.military.ie/overseas
Currently serving in places like the Leb'. Underfunded and at risk. Surely worthy of a bit of fawning OP?

there is next to no fawning over peace keeping operations within irish culture. There is no issue whatsoever regarding the point of culture wide propoganda to which I am refering.

I would also make a distinction between peace keeping and long term military occupation of states half way across the world.

gbee

Leftist wrote: »

I would also make a distinction between peace keeping and long term military occupation of states half way across the world.

You might not if you were to hear, let's say a unit of Irish Peace Keepers in Chad opened fire with their remote turret and took out a mortar position that was firing on them.

Or that another Irish Moog opened fire killing a group of combatants who were firing and killing non-combatants at a feeding station, whilst other country's peace keepers stood by and observed as the ROE called for live exchange only when engaged.

These are mythical examples and never happened BTW. Just for the purpose of discussion.

SEPT 23 1989

Its the sense of adventure that we lack in modern society

Leftist

gbee wrote: »

You might not if you were to hear, let's say a unit of Irish Peace Keepers in Chad opened fire with their remote turret and took out a mortar position that was firing on them.

Or that another Irish Moog opened fire killing a group of combatants who were firing and killing non-combatants at a feeding station, whilst other country's peace keepers stood by and observed as the ROE called for live exchange only when engaged.

These are mythical examples and never happened BTW. Just for the purpose of discussion.

actually yes I would. the irish peace keepers/moog wasn't there to invade a country and replace a government through force or occupy a country for the benefit of ireland. there is a difference and I get it, you were in the army.

Franticfrank

These days its about more than professional killing. Most of what soldiers do in Afghanistan is listening to problems from locals, trying to solve them and implementing rebuilding projects. A friend of mine was over there and his stories about trying to communicate with Afghan elders was fascinating. Sure he was shot at, but most of the time they were trying to build a school and find people to teach there. That ended when the Taliban arrived and executed the new teachers.

The military is a good chance to learn - engineering and the like. But yeah, true, it is a very dominant topic in the modern media.

kippy

Indeed.
I posted something along these lines into a thread on the soccer forum about James McClean and the furore over him not wearing a poppy.

This poppy wearing only because widespread in the past decade or so, I cannot remember TV presenters, football teams, people int he public eye, wearing them before, or at least there not being such a fuss about it.

bluecode

The whole subject is a very complex area. Don't automatically assume that support for the troops is the same as support for war. No one actually likes war least of all those involved. But there are various motivations for becoming a soldier and patriotism is rarely the overriding consideration.

In some ways Americans over do the support for the troops at the moment. But that in part is probably an over compensation for the disgraceful way many Vietnam veterans were treated. Most of whom were conscripts and many of whom genuinely believed they were helping protect their freedoms. That same is true of the current crop of soldiers.

America still has a greater enthusiasm for militarism than most of Europe. This is most likely because they haven't been fought over and flattened less than seventy years ago. I don't think it's true of the British. If anything their militarism has declined in recent years and the army is not that well regarded even if there is support for the troops.

In Europe generally there is very little militarism for the reasons mentioned above. In the past virtually everyone in France and Germany served in the military whether conscripted or not. Two ruinous wars reduced the enthusiasm for that.

So it isn't fair to say that there is any increase in militarism even in America. If anything the over zealous support for the troops is if anything an over compensation. The conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty remote for all of us but particularly so in America.

As for Ireland, if anything we've gone the other way. The army is considered a joke by many people and it certainly is under resourced.

Ironically I think the main reason is that it has never gone to war. While Irish soldiers have seen combat occasionally, it's rare. So it's not respected the way other country's armed forces are respected. If the army had been to war and earned it's spurs so to speak. I think things would be different and Leftist might have a greater understanding of how other countries see their militaries.

As it is many young men seeking a military career don't even consider the Irish army. They know if they join the British army they'll see action at some point, naive as they are.

Then of course there's our so called neutrality which allows many of us to retain the smug belief that we are better than all those other 'warmongering' countries. Meanwhile we let them do all the fighting and dying to protect our little island from the grim realities of the hostile world out there.

Militarism is in decline in the west and while some may believe this to be a good thing. It's not, history has a way of repeating itself. America was perceived to be weak by the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden before 9/11. I wonder if he thought America was quite so weak when a Navy Seal kicked in his bedrooom door after years of hiding from them.

It all goes in cycles. Once the war in Afghanistan winds down attitudes will change.