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Child Item

School patronage

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From today's indo

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/parents-get-vote-to-take-schools-out-of-control-of-the-church-3233287.html

This is interesting. It is hard to assess this initiative based on the information in that article. Of course, personally I would prefer a complete removal of religious influence from state funded schools. However I am not sure that I am happy about this proposed survey. I can see many parents voting not to change purely based on "the devil you know" attitude. I wonder also is potentially divisive to make communities nail their colours to the mast publicly? I suppose it will depend on the detail of the survey.

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Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sliced banana on toast. Heavenly.

Have a friend who puts pineapple in Spag. Bol. - it's...interesting.

Don't ya just love being an atheist? We can disagree on matters SO important and still be friends!

But ew, fruit in spag bol? Well...I'll try anything once.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Don't ya just love being an atheist? We can disagree on matters SO important and still be friends! But ew, fruit in spag bol? Well...I'll try anything once.

We rock.

I tried it twice just to be sure, to be sure, I didn't like it.
She says it has to be the tinned stuff - but that may be because she is too lazy to do the peeling and chopping.

kylith

I hate myself for liking pineapple on pizza. I want to be a pizza purist, but it's just sooooo good.

Obliq

kylith wrote: »

I hate myself for liking pineapple on pizza. I want to be a pizza purist, but it's just sooooo good.

Don't hate yourself for it kylith - be out and proud! So glad you had the courage to say it though - you're not alone, remember that. :cool:

expectationlost

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-urges-parents-to-make-voices-heard-on-school-patronage-3281201.html
more talk of low response
are new parents not aware of this survey? of course it will be extended like ever consultation

Hotblack Desiato

Perhaps offering them slices of pizza for completing the survey...

StillWaters

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-urges-parents-to-make-voices-heard-on-school-patronage-3281201.html
more talk of low response
are new parents not aware of this survey? of course it will be extended like ever consultation

People are aware, they are just not bothered sadly.

I don't think it will be extended, at least not in the 5 areas.

Hotblack Desiato

If FF were doing what Quinn was doing now, we'd be calling it "doing the least possible in order to make it look like change is happening, while continuing to kowtow to the Roman Catholic Church" :mad:

This so-called initiative is a joke. It will not produce meaningful change for my kids. It's unlikely to produce meaningful change for my future grandchildren, at this rate.

I live in a mature area in Dublin. There are no new schools going to be built here because the schoolgoing population isn't growing, but it's steady. There is, it appears, no prospect of an ET school. We have several RCC schools but it appears there is no likelihood of taking even one of those and turning it into an ET or similar school.

expectationlost

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1109/parents-surveyed-over-primary-school-patronage.html

Around half had not heard about the survey at all.

Others had a vague knowledge of it. Just four parents had actually completed the questionnaire.

If this is representative then it does not augur well for the exercise.

Most of the parents I spoke to were very happy with the current situation and saw no need for change.

that's castlebar though what about other areas

some said happy for change for otehrs but didn't went THEIR school to be one to change

PopePalpatine

I live in one of the areas where these surveys are being carried out. My mother filled it out, and it caused a row between me and my auntie. She based her opposition to changing school patronage on, "They've taken our language and our country away from us, now they're going to take our religion away from us."

To think that I used to get on so well with her.

robindch

^^^ Hang on, let me get this straight. Is this survey part of (or is) the consultative process that Quinn has been promoting since last year? The one which will begin the process of determining who controls Irish schools? And it was made an online survey?

If so, then that's taking the fucking piss and I'm wondering why they didn't make tomorrow's referendum an online survey too.

Hell, why not save the bother of a web page and just tell people to scribble a yes or a no on the back of an envelope, then chuck it in the bin.

// FFS :mad:

expectationlost

its not just online although that's the easiest way, there was all this talk of restricting the amount of money could be spent on the campaign but it doesn't even seem like the churches have made people aware of it, although they said that all should fill it in even if they wanted no change

Hotblack Desiato

I'd actually be happier if nothing was happening, rather than this pretence, designed to fail.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

If so, then that's taking the fucking piss and I'm wondering why they didn't make tomorrow's referendum an online survey too.

Just checking to see if asterisks appear in the quote

Anyway..... AFAIK only parents of the kids who will be the specific age for starting in the relevant schools, are being asked for their opinions. Names and ages have to be supplied.
So the survey is actually skewed in favour of change, in two respects.
1.The more conservative element of the population are likely to have kids that are older than the requisite age.
2. The dissatisfied non-religious element have more incentive to vote.
As the priest said in that article linked to earlier;

Fr Michael Drumm, of the Catholic Schools Partnership, has painted a scenario of only a relatively small number of motivated parents participating in the survey and expressing a desire for change.
Fr Drumm said of those who did not participate: "We would have to conclude (they) are actually content with the present situation."

So if they lose, I think the unreligious parents will just have to suck it up.

As I mentioned before, this IMO is the essence of the difference between two overlapping political systems; democracy (majority rule) and republic (rule by law, hopefully for the public good)
In a truly secular republic, with separation of church and state, all state schools would be secular schools, end of story, and it is the religious who would just have to suck it up.

expectationlost

yeah even in 84% catholic castlebar with 11 primary schools are they really saying that 1 say educate together medium sized school wouldn't get filled up if they facilitated it?

the gov should just implement considered policy this second level of pretend democracy is lame, they already have all the population stats they need.

but anyone can fill out the form, not just people with kids but obviously they will pay more attention to those with kids, but again as someone pointed out, even building a school based on people with pre-school kids is very short term thinking for school that may be there a for a hundred years,

eyescreamcone

The government decides when to open or close hospitals etc
I don't see any surveys to see if we'd like a centre of excellence in our area.
The government should just get on with implementing change and not try to fudge the issue.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

but anyone can fill out the form, not just people with kids

I haven't seen the actual form, but heres the link

this process involves asking all the parents/guardians of primary going children and pre-school children in these areas to tell us what type of primary school they would like their children to attend.

I had some experience of something similar earlier this year. They (the State) are going to build a brand new secondary school in Greystones. There is only one currently, under RC patronage. The various primary schools were going after the new patronage, including Church of Ireland, Educate Together, VEC, and the Gaelscoil rounded up signatures and organised lists of names last year. I know some names I saw on the lists should have been ineligible; some kids who are now in first year secondary school and 6th class primary. (The new school won't open for another year or two, too late for them) The dept of education noticed that there were a few repeat names, names put down twice for the same patronage. I suspect they didn't check the eligibility of the names too closely though.
Interestingly, there was no real effort made to secure a second RC patronage, but the people who were intending to send their kids to the existing RC school could still vote. It appears that these may have voted for the other faith school, in a spirit of friendly ecumenism. And so the C of I got it. And yes, it has already been said "now there will be a choice of both religions" with two schools in the town.

Having said that, in other parts of the country quite a few of the new schools were ET or VEC. They are going to be brand new schools, in areas of population expansion, as opposed to possibly re-assigning existing schools, which is what the current consultation is about.

[Deleted User]

A point made earlier in the thread was made about an older generation making decisions for younger ones.
I'm in secondary school now. Surely the government would be better of interviewing or giving us a questionaire?

My generation have gone through Catholic Primary School education in the 21st century, a very different time to when our parents went to primary school.
Also, its the same Jane and Johns that filled out our census forms. It was for this reason I didn't link my parents to the survey (also have sibling in their final years of primary school). In ten plus years it'll be my generation's children in primary school, not my parents. You would think, after all the rambling the government have been doing on about how the Children's referendum is important because it will take the child's physical and mental welfare into consideration, that they would at least give one bit of care into about our opinion on the education system.

The result, if you were to get one, from secondary school students would be a very different one to their parents. Gradually are increasing number of students are becoming more aware of how idiotic and bonkers it is to be part of a church of which they disagree with their teachings, never attend services at, pay money to and only go along for the ride because of the "its tradition" or its "part of their culture" bs, or so their little Johnny can have a party in which they celebrate him starting his journey of indoctrination into a hypocrital and uncaring church. Hopefully some day there will be only one type of Catholic in Ireland, devout and practising ones. Id be very curious to know though what is the real percentage of that.

expectationlost

Weak response to pilot survey on parents' preferred patrons of schools
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1114/1224326574064.html

did anyone here of promotion from this offline, in their local area, any see any mention of lealfets, the rte reporter went to the local play school some hadn't heard of it, well why didn't the dept of ed go to the local playschools and inform people?

Just 40pc vote on handover of schools
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-40pc-vote-on-handover-of-schools-3293724.html

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

A point made earlier in the thread was made about an older generation making decisions for younger ones.
I'm in secondary school now. Surely the government would be better of interviewing or giving us a questionaire?

There is some logic to restricting the vote to the actual stakeholders in all this; ie the parents of young children. They are the ones being most affected. However, if this was to be fair and just, the vote would have to be retaken every 5 years or so, to keep up with trends. Patronages might well change, and then change back again regularly. You would get your chance to vote in time, when the outcome most affected you.
In reality though, this is unlikely to happen. The two main (FF and FG in the past) political parties have historically cow-towed to the RC church.
It could be a long time before we see another Minister for Education who is atheist, socialist and secularist.
If the schools were secularised, there would be no need for the continuous, ongoing, generational voting.

expectationlost

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1212/educate-together-school-department-of-education.html
results published
http://www.rte.ie/documents/news/report-to-nseg-on-pilot-surveys-dec2012-final.pdf

report recommends and educate together school in each area, none of the other options come close
i'd like to see first and second preferences though

they also announced seperatly that they are building new schools and extensions, including primary and secondary educate together schools
http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2012-Press-Releases/PR2-%202012-%2012-%2010%20.html

there is also a survey on Cross Border Education
http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Parental-Survey-on-Cross-Border-Education/Parental-Survey-on-Cross-Border-Education.html

Hotblack Desiato

Dreadful article from Breda O'Brien in yesterday's Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1215/1224327873441.html

The results appear to be a great endorsement of denominational schools, given that two-thirds of respondents are not seeking change.

She is assuming that all those who did not respond share her view. How convenient.

It suggests there is no demand for a one- size-fits-all secular education, because Educate Together also educates about religion.

Deeply depressing that a teacher who constantly writes about religion in a national newspaper could be so clueless. She should be aware what secularism means, and she should be aware that in Ireland, teaching about religion in State-funded schools is compulsory.

Really poor from the IT...

expectationlost

typical, but she is right about so few knowing about it

On the eve of the submission deadline of the pilot survey, Emma O’Kelly went to Castlebar where there are 11 primary schools, all Catholic. She spoke to about 40 parents. Half had not heard about the online survey, and with only a day to go, only four had filled it in.

i do wonder how it going to achieved practically too

eyescreamcone

Statistics have also shown that six out of seven dwarves are not Happy!

Someone mentioned that changing the curriculum might be the best way forward.
Even though this is only a step in the right direction at least we'd be moving.

PopePalpatine

By her logic, anyone who doesn't vote favours the status quo/incumbent government.

expectationlost

PopePalpatine wrote: »

By her logic, anyone who doesn't vote favours the status quo/incumbent government.

well she says she was using the departments logic, was she?

i think one newspaper article mentioned something about the schools being gradual change but i can't find it

Delirium

ninja900 wrote: »

Dreadful article from Breda O'Brien in yesterday's Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1215/1224327873441.html

She is assuming that all those who did not respond share her view. How convenient.

Deeply depressing that a teacher who constantly writes about religion in a national newspaper could be so clueless. She should be aware what secularism means, and she should be aware that in Ireland, teaching about religion in State-funded schools is compulsory.

Really poor from the IT...

Someone associated with the Iona Institute trying to paint a picture that people don't want a secular education system? Not really surprising tbh.

expectationlost

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-to-be-asked-on-alternatives-to-catholic-run-schools-218977.html

39 further towns to asked next week

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-to-be-asked-on-alternatives-to-catholic-run-schools-218977.html

families in four towns can choose the Nigerian-founded Redeemed Christian Church of God as an alternative patron

I think I'd choose that one. The school uniforms should be nice and colourful.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-to-be-asked-on-alternatives-to-catholic-run-schools-218977.html

39 further towns to asked next week

So much for the Examiner's pretence of being a national newspaper, they list all the Munster towns but not the areas in Dublin :rolleyes: