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The Wire vs The Sopranos vs Breaking Bad

RodgersLFC

Mods feel free to move/delete this as you see fit, but i thought it'd be interesting to see which of these fantastic shows poll the highest. Obviously very different shows but all influential and superb in their own ways.

My vote is for The Wire. Greatest tv show of all time in my opinion, the depth of the story and the quality of the writing makes it essential for any tv fan.

Cheers

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RodgersLFC

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Its just easier to follow and well put together. I'm not surprised some people think it better for that reason alone. The majority of people do not want to be intellectually challenged when they sit down in front of the tv.

That sums it up for me. I honestly think that people that dont enjoy The Wire are people that are unwilling to immerse themselves and challenge their views on what a TV show should be or what it should constitute. There's many, many shows that I've enjoyed over the years, but The Wire makes you think in a way that no other TV show does. Its hard to explain to someone that hasnt seen the show.

Interesting to see that The Wire is now pulling ahead in the poll. Its ironic at how low the ratings were when it was shown on HBO and now its considered a modern classic of TV.

enfant terrible

RodgersLFC wrote: »

That sums it up for me. I honestly think that people that dont enjoy The Wire are people that are unwilling to immerse themselves and challenge their views on what a TV show should be or what it should constitute. There's many, many shows that I've enjoyed over the years, but The Wire makes you think in a way that no other TV show does. Its hard to explain to someone that hasnt seen the show.

Interesting to see that The Wire is now pulling ahead in the poll. Its ironic at how low the ratings were when it was shown on HBO and now its considered a modern classic of TV.

I don't think we should put people off the show though saying how complex it is, its not very complex you just have to pay attention to what's being said.

And its definately a show you can watch again once completed.

RodgersLFC

enfant terrible wrote: »

I don't think we should put people off the show though saying how complex it is, its not very complex you just have to pay attention to what's being said.

And its definately a show you can watch again once completed.

Agreed. A better way to describe it is "multi-layered".

Have watched seasons 1-4 twice now, and the second time around was a completely different experience. Its great to watch it again because you can spend more time focusing on little bits you missed before, without having to learn the characters and follow the storyline as closely.

I dont think I would watch Breaking Bad again, as good as it is. There's no real reason to go back and watch it again.

Da Shins Kelly

enfant terrible wrote: »

Does it really matter though, does a show need strong female characters to be good?

It doesn't need them to be good, but I find strong female characters interesting. You can't deny that Kima and Carmela are intriguing characters and do add to their respective shows. Film and television doesn't have enough good female characters in general.

And one thing I'd like to point out is the slightly condescending attitudes of people who love The Wire and won't hear a bad word against it. Just because someone doesn't particularly enjoy it doesn't mean they don't get it or that it's "too complex" or "too challenging" for them.

And comparing The Wire to Ulysses? Please.

Tom_Cruise

The Wire. No Contest.

Cienciano

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

And one thing I'd like to point out is the slightly condescending attitudes of people who love The Wire and won't hear a bad word against it. Just because someone doesn't particularly enjoy it doesn't mean they don't get it or that it's "too complex" or "too challenging" for them.

I think you'll find that's normal in a debate about anything!
Here's something negative about The Wire, I hated the

invented serial killer

storyline.

But good point from RodgersLFC, which tv show would you watch again? I'm sticking with my order of The Wire, Sopranos and Breaking Bad. Definitely going to watch The Wire again, possibly watch The Sopranos, but definitely not Breaking Bad.

--Kaiser--

RodgersLFC wrote: »

That sums it up for me. I honestly think that people that dont enjoy The Wire are people that are unwilling to immerse themselves and challenge their views on what a TV show should be or what it should constitute. There's many, many shows that I've enjoyed over the years, but The Wire makes you think in a way that no other TV show does. Its hard to explain to someone that hasnt seen the show.

Interesting to see that The Wire is now pulling ahead in the poll. Its ironic at how low the ratings were when it was shown on HBO and now its considered a modern classic of TV.

I can't disagree more. Breaking Bad gives me far more food for thought than The Wire does. And I do enjoy the show, it's just flawed.

Anyway, I think I've reiterated my points ad nauseum at this stage

Tombo2001

fruvai wrote: »

In my mind The Wire would be similar to A Tale of Two Cities and Breaking Bad is similar to a Cormac McCarthy novel. While The Wire is a structurally complex piece of work it's not experimental in both form and content like Ulysses is. And the Wire is actually popular , Ulysses has never really been popular - highly regarded but people generally tend to dismiss it as pretentious **** written for English professors and intellectuals to dissect and masturbate over :pac:

I can see the Breaking Bad analogy to Cormac McCarthy but not necessarily the Tale of Two Cities.......but overall I can see that The Wire does have a dickensian quality to it.

Ulysses has never been popular?

I give you Modern Library's Top 100 novels of the 20th Century with Ulysses at number 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Library_100_Best_Novels

It is popular and widely read. Very popular in the US. I sat down for a coffee in Peru once, and an elderly man at the table that I got chatting with said "Ireland, the land of the great writer Joyce". And he had read the book.

Tombo2001

RodgersLFC wrote: »

That sums it up for me. I honestly think that people that dont enjoy The Wire are people that are unwilling to immerse themselves and challenge their views on what a TV show should be or what it should constitute. .

Thats a bit far fetched......its a bit like saying there must be something wrong with you if you dont like the Beatles......everyone has there own tastes. Some people prefer Bob Marley and thats fine.

Mardy Bum

fruvai wrote: »

In my mind The Wire would be similar to A Tale of Two Cities and Breaking Bad is similar to a Cormac McCarthy novel. While The Wire is a structurally complex piece of work it's not experimental in both form and content like Ulysses is. And the Wire is actually popular , Ulysses has never really been popular - highly regarded but people generally tend to dismiss it as pretentious **** written for English professors and intellectuals to dissect and masturbate over :pac:

Ulysses is one of the most widely read novels in the world. The intricacies of the Wire in terms of televisual entertainment and the limitations this form it inherently holds is close to Ulysses in relative terms. Obviously a tv show can come close to competing with it in absolute terms.

The Wire's use of colloquial dialogue that a lot of viewers could not even comprehend was a bold and experimental step by Simon similar to Joyce's use of interior monologue/ stream of consciousness. Simon's "fuck the average viewer is also similar to Joyce's attitude toward literature and his audience see "Day of the Rabblement". The allusions to Greek drama and poetry are replete in the Wire and obviously Ulysses' parallel to the Odyssey.

--Kaiser--

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Ulysses is one of the most widely read novels in the world. The intricacies of the Wire in terms of televisual entertainment and the limitations this form it inherently holds is close to Ulysses in relative terms. Obviously a tv show can come close to competing with it in absolute terms.

The Wire's use of colloquial dialogue that a lot of viewers could not even comprehend was a bold and experimental step by Simon similar to Joyce's use of interior monologue/ stream of consciousness. Simon's "fuck the average viewer is also similar to Joyce's attitude toward literature and his audience see "Day of the Rabblement". The allusions to Greek drama and poetry are replete in the Wire and obviously Ulysses' parallel to the Odyssey.

Ridiculous analogy but thanks for trying. Ulysses is actually one of the most widely unread books (as in popular but not read) out there

ViveLaVie

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Ulysses is one of the most widely read novels in the world. The intricacies of the Wire in terms of televisual entertainment and the limitations this form it inherently holds is close to Ulysses in relative terms. Obviously a tv show can come close to competing with it in absolute terms.

The Wire's use of colloquial dialogue that a lot of viewers could not even comprehend was a bold and experimental step by Simon similar to Joyce's use of interior monologue/ stream of consciousness. Simon's "f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck the average viewer is also similar to Joyce's attitude toward literature and his audience see "Day of the Rabblement". The allusions to Greek drama and poetry are replete in the Wire and obviously Ulysses' parallel to the Odyssey.

I would not equate using colloquial dialogue with experimenting with the format of writing in general. Lots of films/shows have done that already. If The Wire were experimental in terms of the media of television and how the story is presented to the viewer then I could reconcile a comparison being made with stream of consciousness writing in Ulysses.

I would tend to agree that Ulysses is disproportionately unread when you consider its impact upon literature in general. Most people who try to read it give up and it seems to remain a popular read only among literature students and lecturers and intellectuals.

Mardy Bum

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I would not equate using colloquial dialogue with experimenting with the format of writing in general. Lots of films/shows have done that already. If The Wire were experimental in terms of the media of television and how the story is presented to the viewer then I could reconcile a comparison being made with stream of consciousness writing in Ulysses.

I would tend to agree that Ulysses is disproportionately unread when you consider its impact upon literature in general. Most people who try to read it give up and it seems to remain a popular read only among literature students and lecturers and intellectuals.

In terms of television where there is not as much freedom it is a very bold step and although it does not translate directly, in terms of boldness it is and quality of the dialogue. Joyce was not the first to use interior monologue either he just used it with much greater frequency and better than those before. Joyce is an industry in itself now in Ireland, huge numbers read it or attempt to admittedly its not as popular with the Irish.

Richard Dower

Wow!....The Wire has flown ahead of the voting!....last time i checked all three shows were even.

Da Shins Kelly

Cienciano wrote: »

I think you'll find that's normal in a debate about anything!

In particular with The Wire. Some of the fans of that show are crazy. My brother is one of them.

Cienciano wrote: »

But good point from RodgersLFC, which tv show would you watch again? I'm sticking with my order of The Wire, Sopranos and Breaking Bad. Definitely going to watch The Wire again, possibly watch The Sopranos, but definitely not Breaking Bad.

I've watched The Sopranos through three times, and The Wire once. Breaking Bad is still going, so only once so far (although I have re-watched certain episodes). But I already said that I agreed that it wouldn't stand up to repeated viewing in the way The Sopranos and The Wire does.

sink

I love all 3, and they would make up my top 3. It's hard for me to put them in order because they're all good for different reasons.

The Sopranos is superbly written and acted. Ground breaking for it's daring and depth. It opened the door for TV drama to match cinema in artistic quality.

The Wire is unparalleled social commentary, showing how society becomes infected with an all pervasive cycle of greed and corruption. Individuals who are only trying to get by, guided by their own experience and knowledge are dragged down by a system that they cannot change or escape.

Breaking Bad depicts how one man's morality can be lost to a lust for power. How that lust is initially brought on by a sense of injustice and lack of reward for ones efforts. Brilliantly written and acted, it is far more focussed show with a much stronger central arc and smaller number of central characters.

It's impossible for me to put any one of those shows above the others because they're all pure quality. I recommend people here watch Homeland, it is only into it's second season but so far it's every bit as good as those 3. Only time will tell if it can maintain that standard.

Tombo2001

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I would not equate using colloquial dialogue with experimenting with the format of writing in general. Lots of films/shows have done that already. If The Wire were experimental in terms of the media of television and how the story is presented to the viewer then I could reconcile a comparison being made with stream of consciousness writing in Ulysses.

I would tend to agree that Ulysses is disproportionately unread when you consider its impact upon literature in general. Most people who try to read it give up and it seems to remain a popular read only among literature students and lecturers and intellectuals.

And The Wire is dispropotionatey unwatched (werent the ratings poor?)

RodgersLFC

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And The Wire is dispropotionatey unwatched (werent the ratings poor?)

Yeah it was almost cancelled after seasons 1 and 3 i believe. HBO definitely didnt want to continue with it after season 3, the ratings were terrible. Its funny that its now such a cult show. They're making more off it now than they ever did when it was on its original run.

RE: Homeland, its a good show, but its got a LONG way to go before its as good as any of these 3. Homeland is entertaining but nowhere near the level of Breaking Bad, for example. The nuances in the Breaking Bad plot and the twists and turns in the plot lines are way ahead of Homeland (so far).

Tombo2001

RodgersLFC wrote: »

Yeah it was almost cancelled after seasons 1 and 3 i believe. HBO definitely didnt want to continue with it after season 3, the ratings were terrible. Its funny that its now such a cult show. They're making more off it now than they ever did when it was on its original run.

.

On this point....

One thing that I cant imagine myself ever doing again is tuning in once a week to watch a show, the way I would have done years ago.

For example when I was a kid, the Cosby show every Sunday at 6.30pm was a big event in our house.

Even more recently, a few years back I would have tuned into (for my sins) Grey's Anatomy each week. I just got into it for a series.

But I can see myself ever doing that again. Not when I can just buy the box set.

RodgersLFC

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On this point....

One thing that I cant imagine myself ever doing again is tuning in once a week to watch a show, the way I would have done years ago.

For example when I was a kid, the Cosby show every Sunday at 6.30pm was a big event in our house.

Even more recently, a few years back I would have tuned into (for my sins) Grey's Anatomy each week. I just got into it for a series.

But I can see myself ever doing that again. Not when I can just buy the box set.

Its very difficult to watch a show exclusively on TV, i agree. You're always likely to miss one, which is why I usually wait until the middle or end of a season of a show I'm watching, and download. Or else wait for the box set.

I'm following Homeland week-to-week at the moment, thats all.

Grey's Anatomy? :eek: not seen a great deal of it, I admit, but any episodes i've seen have been pretty depressing.

Tombo2001

RodgersLFC wrote: »

Grey's Anatomy? :eek: not seen a great deal of it, I admit, but any episodes i've seen have been pretty depressing.

Its class.......The Wire meets Breaking Bad meets Fresh Prince of Bel Air.....

In all seriousness, it was good for a series. But it ran out of themes, jumped the shark a bit.

I'm not a TV snob. If its good I watch it.

RodgersLFC

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its class.......The Wire meets Breaking Bad meets Fresh Prince of Bel Air.....

In all seriousness, it was good for a series. But it ran out of themes, jumped the shark a bit.

I'm not a TV snob. If its good I watch it.

Yup thats fair enough. I have just started watching the X-Files again. Great show.

fruvai

sink wrote: »

The Sopranos is superbly written and acted. Ground breaking for it's daring and depth. It opened the door for TV drama to match cinema in artistic quality.

Sorry to harp on about this particular show but I think that Twin Peaks was really the first American show to approach TV in that kind of way (which isn't to say that the Sopranos wasn't hugely influential). Before it, TV was seen as a hopelessly inferior medium incapable of producing anything with intelligence, wit or imagination. David Lynch's presence gave the medium a credibility it had never had really enjoyed before. He approached it as a prolonged film where the audience wasn't talked down to or treated like idiots - he used symbolism and didn't feel the need to explain every little thing to pander to established TV conventions or feel it necessary to fit his show into a neat little box - the show could be dark,hilarious,warm,scary, silly,absurd and deathly serious all in the one episode.

It's nowhere near as consistent as the three mentioned show(due to various reasons) but at its best it's just as good as anything that's ever been on television. The dream sequences in the Sopranos were more or less David Chase's homage to Twin Peaks , the use of great character actors for important roles etc.

Da Shins Kelly

RodgersLFC wrote: »

Yup thats fair enough. I have just started watching the X-Files again. Great show.

The X-Files is brilliant. I love how just unashamedly mad it is. It's quite suspenseful and genuinely creepy at times too. Thoroughly entertaining show.

On watching a series from week to week, I was doing that with the new season of Breaking Bad when I was in the US, and it was excruciating, especially for a show like that. I'd gotten so used to watching it in bulk, that I just couldn't adjust to the weekly thing.

RodgersLFC

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

The X-Files is brilliant. I love how just unashamedly mad it is. It's quite suspenseful and genuinely creepy at times too. Thoroughly entertaining show.

On watching a series from week to week, I was doing that with the new season of Breaking Bad when I was in the US, and it was excruciating, especially for a show like that. I'd gotten so used to watching it in bulk, that I just couldn't adjust to the weekly thing.

At times, there's nothing worse than watching a really brilliant episode of a show you're following, and having to wait a week for the next one. You then also have to make sure you're around for the next one, in case you miss it and see a spoiler somewhere. Theres a lot to be said for box sets, thats for sure!

I watched the X-Files during its original run, really liked it but gave up somewhere in season 4 i think. I'm hoping to keep going with it this time. Do you know if there's much of a tail-off in quality as the seasons go on?

Da Shins Kelly

RodgersLFC wrote: »

At times, there's nothing worse than watching a really brilliant episode of a show you're following, and having to wait a week for the next one. You then also have to make sure you're around for the next one, in case you miss it and see a spoiler somewhere. Theres a lot to be said for box sets, thats for sure!

I watched the X-Files during its original run, really liked it but gave up somewhere in season 4 i think. I'm hoping to keep going with it this time. Do you know if there's much of a tail-off in quality as the seasons go on?

In fairness, there is a bit of a dip in quality around season 6 and it doesn't really recover after that. Unfortunately, it got dragged out a lot longer than it should have. I blame it on the producers - so many of them destroy their own shows by not knowing when to quit and trying to flog as much as they can from it. Season three is the absolute peak - best season of the entire series.

The cultural impact of that show is crazy. It seeped into popular culture so easily. I remember watching it for the first time and noticing all these little bits and pieces that I recognised just from popular culture, without ever having seen the show before.

It might interest some fans of Breaking Bad to know that Vince Gilligan was a regular contributor to the X-Files and wrote a lot of episodes for it.

Father Damo

LOL there is some awfully pretentious **** being written about The Wire here.

Tried season one. First time watching it on tv, second time I got the boxset.

I was 6 weeks into it on tv before I decided it simply wasnt worth fighting for the remote with the housemate for.

When I tried again with the DVDs (surely I must be wrong, surely with all the acclaim I just didnt get it) I lasted three episodes. Some of the acting is simply tragic (particularly the burly white cop, although there are a few more on top of that). The plots were atrocious- IIRC in one episode a cop brought his children with him to tail a dealer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Detail

"The "Chicken McNugget" scene is often cited by fans, and some reviewers, as being one of the most memorable moments in the show. Poot and Wallace speculate that the man who invented the Chicken McNuggets must be rich, and D'Angelo explains to them that McDonald's owns the rights to the McNugget, and the man who invented it likely received nothing for it and is now probably "working in the basement for regular wage thinking of some **** to make the fries taste better." Wallace responds with "he still had the idea though"

It was at this point I really truly wondered what sh1te I was watching. These lads are smart enough to measure, weigh and sell drugs for profit whilst evading detection, and they reckon the nugget inventor still works in a local McDonalds? This is good writing?

It is not an entirely terrible show, but jesus it has alot of weak points when you think of how much plaudits it gets. Said it before, say it again, The Corner completely sh1ts over it.

Lenin Skynard

The Corner was great and The Wire was an expansion of it. I'm finding it hard to buy into the idea that you have to shít all over the show that you don't like on the list because I love all three shows.

The nugget inventor in McDonalds indeed, made the whole show a farce so it did.

PeterStrauss The Second

Father Damo wrote: »

LOL there is some awfully pretentious **** being written about The Wire here.

Tried season one. First time watching it on tv, second time I got the boxset.

I was 6 weeks into it on tv before I decided it simply wasnt worth fighting for the remote with the housemate for.

When I tried again with the DVDs (surely I must be wrong, surely with all the acclaim I just didnt get it) I lasted three episodes. Some of the acting is simply tragic (particularly the burly white cop, although there are a few more on top of that). The plots were atrocious- IIRC in one episode a cop brought his children with him to tail a dealer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Detail

"The "Chicken McNugget" scene is often cited by fans, and some reviewers, as being one of the most memorable moments in the show. Poot and Wallace speculate that the man who invented the Chicken McNuggets must be rich, and D'Angelo explains to them that McDonald's owns the rights to the McNugget, and the man who invented it likely received nothing for it and is now probably "working in the basement for regular wage thinking of some **** to make the fries taste better." Wallace responds with "he still had the idea though"

It was at this point I really truly wondered what sh1te I was watching. These lads are smart enough to measure, weigh and sell drugs for profit whilst evading detection, and they reckon the nugget inventor still works in a local McDonalds? This is good writing?

It is not an entirely terrible show, but jesus it has alot of weak points when you think of how much plaudits it gets. Said it before, say it again, The Corner completely sh1ts over it.

I haven't seen it fully but if that's the biggest problem then it must be great.

RodgersLFC

Well, it looks like The Wire is the clear winner! Thanks for voting everyone, interesting discussion too. Its great to have so many quality shows to watch. Looking forward to the end of Breaking Bad next year, and Game of Thrones season 3