Curly Judge wrote: » I am reminded of the old chestnut about the difference between an engineer and a good engineer.Any engineer can build a bridge that won't fall down but it takes a good engineer to build a bridge that just won't fall down.
Whether you have an interest or not, Sean Quinn former business magnate and billionaire has been making the media headlines constantly over the past number of years. The most recent headline – has been the rally and show of solidarity for Quinn and his supposedly beleaguered family. However, the key question is, do these people really understand what they are supporting? I will attempt to explain the downfall of Sean Quinn, without sounding condescending in layman terms, so joe public can make an informed decision. The purpose of this article is to provide the FACTS only. (1) Long before the banking crisis. In 2002 Sean Quinn signed over the majority of his assets (including companies Quinn Insurance, packaging, glass and cement) to his five children (to be divided equally among them).Whilst remaining an incredibly wealthly man, the “cash cow” highly profitable companies were under control of his children. (2) Sean Quinn is not the victim of Anglo Irish “toxic” Bank blowing all his investment wrecklessly on crazy lending during the boom without him knowing. (3) Mr. Quinn in 2006 only owned a small share of Anglo Irish Bank. (4) Where things went badly wrong was when Sean Quinn entered into a highly risky bets called “contracts for difference”. Without boring you with the financial terms, it quite simply means that two parties place a wager against each other. One bets that the share price will rise of a company will rise by a certain date, the other person bets it will fall. (5) Mr Quinn bet the price of Anglo Irish bank would rise, however as we all know the construction industry collapsed and Anglo’s share price quickly followed (quite simply because all the money it lent was into to the construction industry). (6) Now the key thing of contracts for difference is that you don’t simply lose your initial bet. You are liable for the entire difference in share price, whether is rises or falls. (7) For example. I place a stake that Facebook’s share will increase (go long) by a certain date. Another guys reckons it will fall (go short) by the same date. We quite simply place your bet. So I put my stake down (usually 20% of the current share price x by the number of shares I want. So I want 10 facebook shares. They are currently trading at £50 each. So that is £500 worth of share and I need to put up 20% of this, which is £100. The other guy does the same. Facebook’s shares take a big tumble and are trading at £25 per share now. This is really bad because it means that I owe the other guy the difference between the original share price and the price the shares are when then the contract for difference is up. This means I owe the other guy 10 x £25 – my original stake of £100= which means I owe the other guy £150. (8) Sean Quinn made this same bet with another guy on Anglo only on a much bigger scale. So you recognise the amount he owes to the other party. Anglo share price was trading at a high over €10 a share. They now are worthless. (9) The guy he made the contract for difference with is unknown. (10) Now this is the really juicy bit. Once the share price collapsed. Mr. Quinn could have went bankrupt because quite simply he didn’t have enough money to cover his losses. (11) But he chose not too for some really strange reason. He thought he could fix things. So he decided to buy these shares that he bet on previously (28% of Anglo in total) which would hopefully raise the price of the shares and recover some of his losses. However, as we know this was very poor advice he received as the construction industry was no way about to recover. But the key thing here is as we know from earlier Mr.Quinn did not have the wealth himself to purchase the share as remember he signed over all his companies to children in earlier years. (12) He somehow convinced Anglo to loan him money to buy Anglo’s own shares which is completely illegal under company law. (13) Realising the share price was not going to recover, he knew he had to offload the shares, but also realised that he couldn’t offloaded all of this shares all at once because speculators know when large amount of shares come under to the market all once that the company is in trouble. (14) So he sold his shares to the following (15) 15% of Anglo went to the Quinn family and children and the other 10% went to the maple ten, investors and friends of Sean Quinn. (16) However, what he did was pretty much transfer the debt (that he owed Anglo from the loan he took from them to buy this share and from himself) to his children and friends and the Quinn companies which were pretty much debt free up and until now. (17) With the downturn, the Quinn businesses such as cement and packaging were not performing as well as they were previously. The loan payments were due and the only Quinn company that could make payment was the insurance business. (18) The family took €200 milllion from the insurance business to service the repayments for the anglo loan. However, this money was essentially from the insurance reserve, money kept in reserve to pay out claims on car accidents etc. The insurance regulator quickly recognised that if Quinn Insurance got an influx of large claims all once it didn’t have the money to pay them and stepped in and took control of the insurance arm. (19) It meant that the Quinn family were left to service the anglo debt but were no longer in control of the cash cow insurance arm. Without this insurance company the Quinn family didn’t have a chance of repaying the anglo loans. And the rest is history. So when the Quinn family defaulted on the loan repayments Anglo took control of the remaining Quinn companies in an effort to recoup their losses (20) The Quinns quickly moved to put their international assets, namely a Russian hotel among other outside of the control of Anglo, in a web of complex companies. Points to Note. You as the taxpayer have bailed out the banks. Now the banks are trying to repay back to the taxpayer these monies through clawing back as much as possible from the sale of assets from developers and other it has loaned money originally.Anglo is doing the same with Sean Quinn and is obviously is trying to claim back more money. Quite simply, the less assets Anglo can recover the more the taxpayer has to fork out. So by hiding assets in complex transactions, the Quinn family is costing the taxpayer more money. They are also disputing the legality of the money Anglo lent Sean originally to buy the shares. However, if the shares had have increased instead of dropped, they wouldn’t be disputing the legality of the loans. So the question has to be asked, will you rally to support Sean Quinn and family knowing they are hitting your back pocket as they hid assets? Why didn’t Sean Quinn go bankrupt instead of asking his children’s companies to take over his debt. If he went bankrupt before transferring the debt (the worthless shares) to his children and their companies, the Quinn Family would still be in control on the Quinn Group as the children did not owe the debt to Anglo, Sean did.
Curly Judge wrote: » I would be among the first to admit that Sean Quinn would not have been an easy horse to ride if he had been brought under the stewardship of the Financial Regulator.Most thoroughbreds tend to be foisty!
Curly Judge wrote: » Perhaps the experience of a man who was in a senior position in Northern Rock prior to it's bailout and who has "never taken a professional exam in his life", was not sufficiently nuanced to deal with the complexity of the Quinn situation.
Curly Judge wrote: » It doesen't take a great brain to sweep the baby out with the bathwater. My grandaughter could do that and she is just starting her first year in home economics. Sorry if I appear to be a retard!
kunst nugget wrote: » But cliches and hyperbole aren't going to change the fact that Quinn made catastrophic financial decisions, flouted regulations and broke laws which have resulted in everybody pay the price for his actions. He never had any way of paying that money back and his seven year plan was a complete fantasy.
Courtesy Flush wrote: » I think thats a point being missed by the most misguided Quinn supporters. The taxpayer is now footing the bill for some of his failed business ventures/gambles, I wonder if they even know this ?
Curly Judge wrote: » And I think there is a point being missed by all anti Quinn entusiests. If Sean Quinn had been left to do what he has proven he can do over the last 30 year ie run, and run very well, an empire of his own creation, instead of having to hand it over to a bunch of numpties we would be far better off. That the keyboard warriors on here, baying for his head, without having a pot to piss in between them, can denigrate a man of Sean Quinns achievments and pour scorn on and belittle his supporters is enough to make a bluebottle vomit!
kunst nugget wrote: » You've been repeatedly shown how Quinn drove his business into the ground and yet you completely refuse to accept it. Your main tactic seems to be to blame everyone else but Sean Quinn for his failings and to accuse people on here, who debate with you, of being keyboard warriors. It's deflection upon deflection with you; if you're not accusing people of having not paid the household charge (I have), you're accusing them of being poor (I'm not). You seem to believe that illegality and corruption are alright as long as its being committed by Sean Quinn while accusing everyone else of failings, imagined or otherwise, as proof that Mr. Quinn is a saint. I have repeatedly linked to pages outlining the facts of the case and have tried to give people enough information to show what it was that had been so badly mismanaged in relation to the CfDs, Anglo and Quinn Insurance but it seems pretty obvious you haven't been able to take your head out of your arse long enough to read any of them.
Curly Judge wrote: » This is going to go all the way to the wire and when it's all over God knows who will be left standing.
steve9859 wrote: » You avoid commenting in all your posts on his mismanagement of the insurance business.
steve9859 wrote: » Looks like Cavan and Fermanagh against the world, so.....
9959 wrote: » It doesn't take much to make a "bluebottle vomit", in fact they do it deliberately. Whether our little blue friends are as prone - like Sean Quinn supporters - to 'bellyaching' is another matter.
Curly Judge wrote: » Because I don't fully know what went on inside Quinn Insurance. And, I would venture to suggest, neither do you!
steve9859 wrote: » I do know a good bit about the structure of the insurance industry, the regulations and the capital requirements. If you deny the very well reported facts behind the fines and resignation of Quinn in 2008, the breach of capital rules, the ban from carrying out business in the UK, and the 2010 administration, leaving us all with an insurance levy, then I can do nothing but throw my hands up. It just illustrates how Quinn supporters deny the facts
Curly Judge wrote: » If you nouveau sophisticates inside the Pale think that people in the Cavan/ Fermanagh area are going to abandon the only people who ever brought them anything, and take up with a bunch of name calling sneers, you are greatly mistaken.
Mardy Bum wrote: » I can understand this mentality. It is human nature really to protect those who you believe have helped you- mutual reciprocity. However it does not make it right. Quinn was a capitalist entrepreneur. He was not like his workers. He was dangerous and he got caught, He was in the wrong. Only those with seriously misguided beliefs could argue otherwise at this stage. For this he should be punished and rightfully so he is.
Curly Judge wrote: » Please spare me your indignation. I'm having none of it!.... .....I'll leave you with a poster I noticed recently on the Fermanagh side of the border, outside a young man's house. It said: "Sean Quinn was never in my house. And only for him I wouldn't be either" .... This is going to go all the way to the wire and when it's all over God knows who will be left standing.....
Curly Judge wrote: » Imagine that! The bastard!
Mardy Bum wrote: » Blatant self deception and failure to critically reflect on the issue or the post. There is not much hope for you. The only worry I'd have is that if people can deceive themselves this well what other issues are going on with them.
9959 wrote: » Some very elderly people here in sophisticated Dublin still thank the blessed Charles Haughey for the 'free travel', so I can assure you that the type of 'Uncle Tom' servility proudly displayed outside your 'young man's' house across the border, is not just confined to the Cavan/Fermanagh area. By the way, with the incoming 'Quinn' insurance levy, not to mention the untold damage done to the economy as a result of his reckless gambling and his hiding of assets, there may soon be signs outside a lot of houses throughout Ireland, reading:"Sean Quinn was never in my house. And only for him I'd still be here"
Park Royal wrote: » Portion of recent court proceedings.... "There are about 95 companies in the Quinn group of companies. The main holding company is Quinn Group (RoI) Ltd. I will call the various companies “the Quinn Group”. Whereas these companies were built up by Seán Quinn, and shares in them are held by various means through other companies, the ultimate beneficial owners are the plaintiffs, the Quinns. In addition, a portion of the cash reserves of these companies was used by the Quinns to purchase additional solid investments in hotels in foreign cities. Unbeknownst to the Quinns, from September 2005 Seán Quinn began purchasing contracts for difference in Anglo. If the price of the shares went up, there was a gain; if it went down there was a call for cash loss." zzzz "Share price C1 Since this case may ultimately pivot on what the share price of Anglo was, it may be useful to provide a snapshot at various relevant stages of the price of trading in those shares: October 2005 - €11.61; April 2006 - €13.07; August 2006 - €11.36; December 2006 - €15.41; February 2007 – €16.33; March 2007 - €16.24; April 2007 - €16.55; June 1st 2007 - € 17.53; later in June 2007 - €15.97; August 2007 - €13.44; October 2007 - €11.35; November 2007 - €10.79; December 2007 - €11.47; January 2008 - €9.53; 14 March 2008 - €8.20; 19 March 2008 - €6.90; June 2008 - €7.58; July 2008 - €5.45; later in July 2008 - €5.27; November 2008 - €0.92; December 2008 - €0.19; January 2009 - €0.20." So since 2005 hes been getting "kicks" from CFDs.....wonder was he buying long or short....? Since he was at the CFD's for so long .....he should have been well versed in the pit falls...with his CFD's.....
Curly Judge wrote: » If you think that being a capitalist entrepreneur is a term to be used in derision and denigration there is very little hope of this country ever coming out of the mess we are in. My worry is that you think ordinary workers, unlead and unorganised, can get us out of trouble, or that people like Joe Higgins or Claire Daly should replace the likes of Sean Quinn. We would end up worse than the UK labour party did under that prize wally Michael Foot.
Curly Judge wrote: » Thanks for the interesting post. Perhaps it is clear to others from your record of the share prices how and when Sean Quinn intervened but it's quite above my head. Could someone print a comparative graph line showing the effect of his CFD interventions on the share price. Perhaps this is unknown or unknowable and perhaps it will have very little effect on the upcoming court case next April. It would be nice to see it outlined however.
Park Royal wrote: » Some of the timeline.....from Irish Times....http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0202/breaking3.html"Sean Quinn Senior told David Drumm and Anglo Chairman Sean Fitzpatrick at a meeting in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan on September 11th, 2007, the Quinns held a 24 per cent stake in Anglo, he said. From then on, the bank put “systems” in place to ensure that did not come to the knowledge of the public or stock market.
T-K-O wrote: » Quinn gambled and lost like many people in the this country. Unlike some homeless people in Dublin who cannot live in their apartments due to H&S, Quinn is still a wealthy man. He tried to make a fool out of the judge and the Irish people and rightfully went to prison. People who think otherwise really need to wake up.
Mardy Bum wrote: » A select few of Quinn's supporters have been engaging in criminal damage along the border for the past few months so no wonder they are sympathetic.
