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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

thecommietommy

After all it's for a foreign army, I don't see anyone wearing an emblem for the French, American, Spanish army. Ok some say it's for charity for injured British soldiers, but surely if they join up it's up to the British govt to properly look after them when they are injured and not pestering people expecting charity ?

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Sound of Silence

Two of my Great-Grandparents fought in the First World War with the British Military.

My Grandfather has never worn the Poppy to honour his Father's service, and has never really displayed any desire to. I think that most people honour their relatives as people, rather than as Soldiers, as it's their service as Parents and Family Members which are often their most valued qualities.

I think that wearing the Poppy often serves as tacit support for the some of the less admirable actions of the British Military, and for that reason I'm left a bit cold.

getz

partyguinness wrote: »

Believe me, I earn every penny..;)

just think every year we give you two minutes rest,

Death and Taxes

Yamanoto wrote: »

As we're playing silly buggers, how many of the AH rabble who expressed an objection actually formed or attended a protest in opposition to the Queen's visit? Commitment to the cause etc.

Did you not see them in their Man Utd tops having their little rent a mob mini-riot?

Sound of Silence

Yamanoto wrote: »

As we're playing silly buggers, how many of the AH rabble who expressed an objection actually formed or attended a protest in opposition to the Queen's visit? Commitment to the cause etc.

What has the Queen's visit got to do with Poppys or Republicanism?

SPQRI

I knew of two Irishmen who faught in WWII.
I know one of them wore a poppy every year as a remembrance
to fallen colleagues. Why shouldn't he I suppose?

What I personally don't like is the continual triumphalism associated
with it. The event in my view should be treated with a little less
publicity. A more discreet & fitting remembrance to all those who
died in both wars.

Jimoslimos

getz wrote: »

if you take the kings shilling,

and pay tax to the Crown! Which if was high enough to cover the true cost of engagements in Iraq/Afghanistan might have more people questioning them.

From a ROI perspective why is it more acceptable to donate to current and ex-servicemen from recent conflicts (piggybacking on WW1 and II sentiment) than it is to fundraise for Irish soldiers involved in UN-mandated peacekeeping missions.

Yamanoto

Sound of Silence wrote: »

What has the Queen's visit got to do with Poppys or Republicanism?

Post I was replying to contextualises it.

getz

Jimoslimos wrote: »

and pay tax to the Crown! Which if was high enough to cover the true cost of engagements in Iraq/Afghanistan might have more people questioning them.

From a ROI perspective why is it more acceptable to donate to current and ex-servicemen from recent conflicts (piggybacking on WW1 and II sentiment) than it is to fundraise for Irish soldiers involved in UN-mandated peacekeeping missions.

what has the poppy appeal to do with paying tax to a goverment,one of them is a charity

Jimoslimos

getz wrote: »

what has the poppy appeal to do with paying tax to a goverment,one of them is a charity

Because the Poppy appeal funds what the government should be doing through taxation.

getz

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Because the Poppy appeal funds what the government should be doing through taxation.

you just dont get it do you,charities are set up by like minded individuals to help where its needed,in the case of ireland two of the royal charities that come to my mind are the RNLI,and the RBL,are you saying they should be scrapped because the UK goverment will not put in money

Death and Taxes

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Because the Poppy appeal funds what the government should be doing through taxation.

That could be said of plenty of causes such as ISPCC, Barnardos, Crumlin Hospital, Alone, etc etc

My name is URL

Yamanoto wrote: »

Post I was replying to contextualises it.

Not really. I wasn't overly supportive of the Queen's visit but I wasn't opposed to it either.. it didn't make a blind bit of difference to me really. Much the same as others choosing to wear a poppy does.

I'll choose not to wear one, but I wouldn't wear an Easter lily either. Wearing any cheap plastic flower on your lapel, for a couple of days per year seems like a pretty shallow way to show remembrance or respect to the dead.. and regardless of what you say it is more of a political gesture.

There are a number of benevolence funds that people can donate to all year round if all they want to do is support former troops.

The day the British stop brushing over the atrocities carried out by their own lot; and romanticizing wars & conflicts then I'll show some degree of respect for the Poppy and its wearers.

Are the BBC et al going to show a documentary during remembrance week about the 100,000's of Kenyans that were tortured and killed by the British during the 50's? No of course not.. all the bad stuff should be forgotten about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/06/kenya.topstories3

gurramok

My name is URL wrote: »

So I wonder how many of the 135 people that say they would wear a poppy, will actually bother their holes to do so. Or is making it known to others that you would merely hypothetically wear one; a strong enough political statement on its own? So much commitment to the cause... brings a tear to the eye. lmao

Some of the Yes voters are conservative English or our own Unionist friends on boards, just look at the usernames who are posting! (though the question didn't ask was it Red or White poppy they'd wear, hopefully white)

No harm remembering Irish people who fought in WWI at Redmonds conned promise of Irish freedom, we have our own ceremonies to remember their slaughter.

I strenuously object to the funding from the poppy appeal of the modern British soldiers who murdered Irish unarmed civilians of all ages up north 30-40 years ago, its their lifestyle we are funding when we buy a red poppy.

Jimoslimos

getz wrote: »

you just dont get it do you,charities are set up by like minded individuals to help where its needed,in the case of ireland two of the royal charities that come to my mind are the RNLI,and the RBL,are you saying they should be scrapped because the UK goverment will not put in money

Don't get what exactly? That the poppy fund is used as a defacto tax to fund the activities of the British army. Charity is immune to the criticism extra taxation would attract. Yes I think I have the right to question why the government doesn't foot the bill themselves (I live here remember).
BTW 'Royal' is irrelevant, don't know why you brought that up.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That could be said of plenty of causes such as ISPCC, Barnardos, Crumlin Hospital, Alone, etc etc

Indeed, but that's not what the thread is about. At least most other charities are transparent in what your donation funds.

Death and Taxes

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Don't get what exactly? That the poppy fund is used as a defacto tax to fund the activities of the British army. Charity is immune to the criticism extra taxation would attract. Yes I think I have the right to question why the government doesn't foot the bill themselves (I live here remember).
BTW 'Royal' is irrelevant, don't know why you brought that up.

Indeed, but that's not what the thread is about. At least most other charities are transparent in what your donation funds.

Seldom, if ever , have I read such an obvious and purposeful misrepresentation of the facts, pure utter inflammatory garbage.
It would be similar to saying that Easter Lilllies go to fund the activities of RIRA!

Jimoslimos

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Seldom, if ever , have I read such an obvious and purposeful misrepresentation of the facts, pure utter inflammatory garbage.
It would be similar to saying that Easter Lilllies go to fund the activities of RIRA!

Really, explain to me what part is a misrepresentation please.

British Government sends troops to Iraq/Afghanistan
Troops get injured whilst serving
British Government pays full cost of rehabilitation
David Cameron (or any other PM) makes his yearly photoshoot at No. 10 purchasing a poppy
RBL makes up the shortfall to cover cost of rehabilitating injured and funding retired soldiers

I have no idea what Easter Lillies are used to fundraise.

poeticseraphim

thecommietommy wrote: »

After all it's for a foreign army, I don't see anyone wearing an emblem for the French, American, Spanish army. Ok some say it's for charity for injured British soldiers, but surely if they join up it's up to the British govt to properly look after them when they are injured and not pestering people expecting charity ?

My grandfather was Irish and fought in the British army I have many older relatives who fought in ww2 ...yes i would absolutely wear it.

I have family currently in the Irish army. You have no idea what you are talking about obviously.

I am Irish my relatives who fought in WW2 were proud Irish men some of whom fought for independence.

When my mother met my grandfather she said about him 'The moment i met him i knew he would lay down his life for me ,he was that kind of man'.

The OP does not get it....soldiers are people who are usually innately courageous.

If you have never served or have no family who have you could never understand.

The British army on the whole has protected the community in NI ....destroying at times 1500 bombs a year.

Yes the British govt did wrong, it did a lot wrong and it needs to come to terms with that ..the Irish govt has done wrong also though.

My family served in the British army in ww2 because it was the only army who gave them the opportunity to do the right thing at the time.

The way they were treated when they came home was a disgrace. And the OP's attitude reminds me of this.

You are an offense to courage. And you are a disgrace to your fellow Irish men who lay down their lives in WW2.
I am actually offended. One can be proudly ROI Irish and wear a poppy.

poeticseraphim

As a matter of interest ..how many no voters have served in the Irish army???? How many No voters have relatives in the Irish army???And how many yes voters have? Or have relatives who have??

Irish men laid down their lives for you inWW2 how can you reject them so??? It is actually making me feel physically sick.

I have nothing further to add to this gross topic OP...your attitude puts Irish nationalism into a context that does not represent me or my values....

It just seems full of anti-British bigotry. You share the same values as those you criticize in British history...those who choose those who choose to define who is decent along the lines of their ethnicity or nationality.

Most British soldiers are as decent and as honorable as Irish soldiers. It is politicians who are F***** UPS.

I have nothing more to say.

partyguinness

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As a matter of interest ..how many no voters have served in the Irish army???? How many No voters have relatives in the Irish army???And how many yes voters have? Or have relatives who have??

Irish men laid down their lives for you inWW2 how can you reject them so??? It is actually making me feel physically sick.

I have nothing further to add to this gross topic OP...your attitude puts Irish nationalism into a context that does not represent me or my values....

It just seems full of anti-British bigotry. You share the same values as those you criticize in British history...those who choose those who choose to define who is decent along the lines of their ethnicity or nationality.

Most British soldiers are as decent and as honorable as Irish soldiers. It is politicians who are F***** UPS.

I have nothing more to say.

What is your opinion on Irish 'neutrality' during WWII?

fasttalkerchat

BX 19 wrote: »

Does it honestly matter now? Whether they were fighting for home rule or some food and a wage, does the politics of it matter?

Yes, some people in the North wear a poppy because the support the army's role in NI.
My point of view is that they were totally wrong but I feel sorry for the families of anyone who comes home in a box. I feel much more sorry for someone who died doing something good or innocently.
Why wear an emblem for someone whose actions you refute?

Chuck Stone

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The British army on the whole has protected the community in NI

You can't expect to be taken seriously when you spout such utter rubbish.

According to the "Sutton Index of Deaths" on CAIN, the British Army killed 305 people during Operation Banner, 156 (~51%) of whom were civilians. Elements of the Army also colluded with illegal loyalist paramilitaries responsible for numerous attacks on civilians (see below). The journalist Fintan O'Toole argues that "both militarily and ideologically, the Army was a player, not a referee".

Source

partyguinness

plus a significant proportion of the 1500 bombs were probably aimed at the Army/Security forces themselves!

Jimoslimos

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As a matter of interest ..how many no voters have served in the Irish army???? How many No voters have relatives in the Irish army???And how many yes voters have? Or have relatives who have??

Irish men laid down their lives for you inWW2 how can you reject them so??? It is actually making me feel physically sick.

I have nothing further to add to this gross topic OP...your attitude puts Irish nationalism into a context that does not represent me or my values....

It just seems full of anti-British bigotry. You share the same values as those you criticize in British history...those who choose those who choose to define who is decent along the lines of their ethnicity or nationality.

Most British soldiers are as decent and as honorable as Irish soldiers. It is politicians who are F***** UPS.

I have nothing more to say.

I don't regard soldiers (Irish, British or otherwise) as being entitled to unquestioning respect. In fact a healthy scepticism of the actions of the armed forces is to be encouraged in any democracy.

I don't regard the deaths of soldiers, whether they came from Britain, Ireland or Nazi Germany, as being any more honourable than the countless unarmed civilians throughout Europe and the rest of the world.

I don't regard soldiers as being innately courageous. Somehow putting a gun in a young man's hands and tell him to shoot a man who he's never met makes him a hero. Courage?

Sound of Silence

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As a matter of interest ..how many no voters have served in the Irish army???? How many No voters have relatives in the Irish army???And how many yes voters have? Or have relatives who have??

When have the Royal British Legion begun to represent members of the Irish Armed Forces? I know people who have served in the Irish Army, and most wouldn't feel that they are under any obligation to wear a Poppy.

I'd imagine the sentiment of the White Poppy would be much more attractive.

Irish men laid down their lives for you inWW2 how can you reject them so??? It is actually making me feel physically sick.

I think most people can honour their relatives without having to wear a Poppy which lends itself more to Jingoism and the glorification of War than it does to savouring the memory of a loved one. As I've mentioned in one of my previous posts, my Grandfather does not feel that he has to wear a Poppy to acknowledge his Father's service.

I have nothing further to add to this gross topic OP...your attitude puts Irish nationalism into a context that does not represent me or my values....

I imagine that for most that this is not a matter of Irish Nationalism. People just generally don't feel an obligation to pay money to a Charity that takes care of a foreign Military.

It just seems full of anti-British bigotry. You share the same values as those you criticize in British history...those who choose those who choose to define who is decent along the lines of their ethnicity or nationality.

Where I live, the British Military never made any efforts to warm themselves to the Community. Whatever mark they left on the area will be remembered with revulsion, rather than praise. Even if my Family members served in the British Military, I simply don't feel any need to honour it's existence. I and my Family will remember them for being Men, not just soldiers.

Most British soldiers are as decent and as honorable as Irish soldiers. It is politicians who are F***** UPS.

Is that really for you to decide. Perhaps we should ask the people who lived where they operated.

partyguinness

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I don't regard soldiers (Irish, British or otherwise) as being entitled to unquestioning respect. In fact a healthy scepticism of the actions of the armed forces is to be encouraged in any democracy.

I don't regard the deaths of soldiers, whether they came from Britain, Ireland or Nazi Germany, as being any more honourable than the countless unarmed civilians throughout Europe and the rest of the world.

I don't regard soldiers as being innately courageous. Somehow putting a gun in a young man's hands and tell him to shoot a man who he's never met makes him a hero. Courage?

That's something I find so unsettling about living in the UK. Any attempt at a healthy debate about British military war (present or past) is more or less stiffled because any criticism is automatically turned against the author as a personal attack on the soldiers and HOW DARE YOU...YOU INGRATE THEY DIED FOR YOU!!

Keeps the masses in check.

old hippy

Symbolism can be very potent, don't you think?

Yamanoto

My name is URL wrote: »

Not really. I wasn't overly supportive of the Queen's visit but I wasn't opposed to it either

Wasn't referring to yourself specifically re the Queen. Merely highlighting the silliness contained within is easily inverted.

My name is URL wrote: »

I'll choose not to wear one, but I wouldn't wear an Easter lily either. Wearing any cheap plastic flower on your lapel, for a couple of days per year seems like a pretty shallow way to show remembrance or respect to the dead.. and regardless of what you say it is more of a political gesture.

Whether you find the form of expression shallow or not is utterly subjective. It may be a 'cheap plastic flower' to you, but I wouldn't be one to make a determination as to the value any given symbol may hold for any particular person. The poppy can be worn as a purely personal gesture to remember a loved one, with null political intent. Others may attribute it with whatever significance they so wish, but that's another argument.

Nodin

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As a matter of interest ..how many no voters have served in the Irish army???? How many (.........)to say.

Could you point out where - post 1945 - Irish soldiers were involved by the Irish government in systematic torture and killings in former colonies to supress rebellions against the Irish empire?

Micky Dolenz

I recently went on a WWI tour in the south of Belgium front line, organised by the Irish MoD. Really educational day which try's to put the conflict into prospective. Some many Irish boys died along with millions others.

The poppy represents all those lost.

Sheeps

My grandfather fought in Italy at casino and on the Goliath line with the royal Inniskilling rifles. I would gladly wear a poppy for him and his battalion for the casualties they suffered, regardless of the fact they fought for a foreign army. The cause was noble, that means more to me.