darkhorse wrote: » I think it really would be a big disincentive to buying a house though,
darkhorse wrote: » thereby putting a lot of pressure on local authorities, also on dept. of social protection, as they would be paying out rent supplement to people who would be on the approved waiting list for a house from the local authority.
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » There's a Finance Act every year. It puts measures announced in the budget into law.
Ghandee wrote: » Hasn't 2012's already been announced for this year though?
Vladimir Kurtains wrote: » Yeshttp://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2012/en.act.2012.0009.pdf
Ghandee wrote: » Exactly, so my point stands.
Ghandee wrote: » So, if I understand you correctly. You agree with me thus far in that nobody can lawfully deduct the hhc/property charge, or any fine connected to it from your income. (without the various court appearances, and actually being singled out in the first place) You've confirmed what I've said, is that right?
Ghandee wrote: » Incidentally, how sure are you that the current govt will still be running the show by the time the next finance act gets Introduced?
Ghandee wrote: » A lot of keyboard warriors cribbin' and moanin' post-budget.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » FYP.
Ghandee wrote: » Thanks Brendan!
DoesNotCompute wrote: » So? Irish people have an unhealthy obsession with property ownership.
darkhorse wrote: » What in the name of God is unhealthy about wanting to own your own home?
Hijpo wrote: » Address the over spending then, its spending that increased and not taxes and charges that decreased.
Hijpo wrote: » lmao at the "all of us" bit, instead of "all of us" why isnt it "everybody"??
Hijpo wrote: » Can you point out any meaningful contribution people in government have made in these times of austerity?
Ghandee wrote: » Sorry, you're correct. I meant to include menders of the PS in that sentence.
doesnotcompute wrote: » So? Irish people have an unhealthy obsession with property ownership... even to the extent of loading themselves down with a lifetime of unsustainable debt just to be able to say they are homeowners. Nothing wrong with not buying a house and renting.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » Nothing wrong with not buying a house and renting.
darkhorse wrote: » But if you're going to be shelling out money anyway, why not buy it. Because, if you are planning on settling and putting down roots, ya may as well own it some day, rather than someone else own it..
lugha wrote: » It was both. Granted, there was a lot more of the former but taxation levels were decreased in the boom years.
lugha wrote: » I would say all of us IS everybody, wouldn’t you?
lugha wrote: » No, because as has been pointed out many times before, it is not possible for them to make a meaningful contribution because there are simply too few of them. They certainly could make an adjustment to their pay and conditions, which might serve to set a good example or boast morale or generally convey the notion that they are in the same sorry boat as the rest of us. But can they personally do anything that will have a meaningful effect on our deficit? Nope.
lugha wrote: » It is more than an unhealthy obsession. If people were prepared to invest the same money in job creation initiatives as they are in purchasing their home we would be far better off.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » If you rent, you won't be struggling to meet mortgage repayments and property tax. You'll have a better quality of life and you'll be able to move to a cheaper area of the landlord jacks up your rent. You'll have a better quality of life.
lugha wrote: » More stable means that it is not as vulnerable to unfavourable economic dynamics.
lugha wrote: » For example, stamp duty was as we can now clearly see, seriously unstable. Once the building boom ended, there was a sudden and catastrophic collapse in a revenue stream for the exchequer. Our problems now are considerably intensified because of this.
lugha wrote: » Some of us are off the view that it might not be a bad idea to have a rethink about the structure of our tax system.
lugha wrote: » Even if there are extensive exemptions (I doubt if there will be) that will only impact on the total take from property tax, not on how stable it is.
lugha wrote: » According to a total misunderstanding of my argument, then yes, I suppose.
lugha wrote: » Perhaps, but the argument being half-pushed is that income tax is somehow fair, or fairer than property tax because the latter takes no account of your circumstances. But that is no less true of income tax.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » As explained above, and conveniently snipped out the quote you lifted from my post, proudly being able to say "I am a homeowner" is something of a phyrric victory when you loaded yourself with a lifetime of unsustainable debt in the process.
Hijpo wrote: » So the majority of the problem is a spending problem. How many charges have been introduced since those taxes were lowerd?
Hijpo wrote: » So what your saying is that because there are a small number of them they shouldnt have to do without any of there expenses, salaries and whatever else makes them capable of living the high life will others have to submit to austerity??
Hijpo wrote: » that goes completely against lughas argument that its cheaper to own a home than rent as it generates notional income. Would you like to take it up with lugha? Lugha can you explain to him why hes wrong?
lugha wrote: » There have been some. But true, there will have to be an awful lot more.
lugha wrote: » I am saying you could cut their pay and allowances to nothing if you like. It will have close to zero effect on the deficit. I’m not saying not to do it. I am saying it won’t have a meaningful (to use your own word) effect. Symbolic? Yes. Meaningful? No.
lugha wrote: » Purely in money terms you are probably better off to own (and it has nothing to do with notional income). If you could buy a house for €150 K at a rate of 4.5% it would cost you about €550 in interest payments. You could probably pay the bones of €1,000 to rent the same house. Of course, you probably won’t get an interest only deal from the bank and will have to pony up an extra chunk each month to pay off the capital and this will probably take you beyond the renting cost. And it is this additional commitment that has many people struggling. That you would (normally!) get this money back in the future, in the form of a valuable asset, and unlike the interest payments, which simply go to fatten some banker’s arse somewhere, is little comfort if you are struggling to make a mortgage payment. People took on mortgages that they could just about cope with in the good times and many of those are now struggling. If we didn’t have our obsession with ownership they simply would not have done this. And our property boom would be considerably less boomy (Lads flogging a 2 banana box apartment for the guts of a millions squid would be told what they could do with it!)
Hijpo wrote: » There wouldnt have to be half as much if they cut there spending, unless now you want to factor in bank bailouts as deficit.
Hijpo wrote: » So it goes a lot deeper than being symbolic, it goes right down to proving everyone has to make sacrafices not just the pesants.
Hijpo wrote: » So hes wrong then?
lugha wrote: » There will have to be both extensive new taxes and charges and massive cuts in public spending. We have barely started to deal with the problem yet. Our deficit equates in ball park figures to about €10,000 per worker (a bit more at the start of the crisis, a bit less now). And it is a deficit so this is not a once of payment. We need to find this amount per worker, EVERY year! A property tax will be a picnic compared to what we eventually will have to endure.
lugha wrote: » Proving that everyone has to make sacrifices IS symbolic. You asked me would it make a meaningful difference. In terms of its impact on the deficit, it won’t.
lugha wrote: » No he is not. There is no conflict in what we are saying. It can be cheaper to buy than to rent (as I say) but the consequence of buying (repaying the capital) can have a seriously negative impact on your quality of life (as DoesNotCompute says)
DoesNotCompute wrote: » If you rent, you won't be struggling to meet mortgage repayments and property tax.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » You'll have a better quality of life and you'll be able to move to a cheaper area of the landlord jacks up your rent.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » You'll have a better quality of life.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » Any socialist worth their salt ought to support a property tax. It's bizarre how all the self professed working class heroes on this thread support property ownership yet oppose a property tax.
DoesNotCompute wrote: » Seems to be a distinctly Irish phenomenon.
dvpower wrote: » You need a judge to organise your household budget? Man up.
bgrizzley wrote: » When everyone in this country couldnt do anything else but rent, the landlords threw them out on the side of the road and pulled the roofs of their homes. damn right i own my own house.
lugha wrote: » The logic of your argument would appear to be that you are less likely to be made homeless if you own your home. Unfortunately, while it is true that you own your home from the moment you purchase it, there will be some risk of you losing it until you have fully paid for it. And if you were unfortunate enough to find yourself in circumstances where you were unable to afford a be rental payment, you might find that "owning" your home is not quite the same as owning it, free of liabilities.
bgrizzley wrote: » the majority of homeowners in this country probably own their house outright (or almost). the biggest threat to them losing it, is this property tax...http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/10/real_estate/tax-liens/index.htm yeah i know someone will post and say "its not in the legislation that you can lose your home over this tax" but i trust Robert Mugabe more than i trust a single Gombeen Irish politician (at least you know what hes at). They will change legislation to suit their own agendas. You let them get their foot in the door on this tax and even you Lugha could find yourself in a position of having to go cap in hand to them, looking for a roof to put over your kids head. Dont Register, Dont Pay...
