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What is rape?

ViveLaVie

I'm posting this here because I want the widest range of possible opinions.

Okay, here goes. I recently came across a thread on Reddit asking posters had they ever raped someone. Some of the responses made me re-evaluate my understanding of what rape is.

A few people seemed to think they had raped someone if they didn't have explicit verbal permission to continue but had done so anyway. The general consensus amongst female posters was that a man should always ask and never assume a woman wishes to progress things sexually even if she seems to respond/initiates. One man said that he is so concerned about accidentally raping a girl that he makes sure to pause before progressing to each sexual act and gain her express verbal consent to continue.

I am female myself and I found reading this quite
problematic. How can you have healthy sexual experiences if they are stunted/interrupted by this worry? I would be annoyed if a man kept stopping and saying ''do you wish to continue?''. It's a step away from drawing up a contract and getting the girl to sign it! I feel like people shouldn't have to worry about things like this. Maybe I am naive?

If a woman is responding favourably in a physical manner to sexual advances then it indicates consent to me and I think things get very problematic if a woman can say after that she didn't actually give verbal consent and so was effectively raped.

If I were in a situation where I didn't wish to continue I would say no and react unfavourably with my physical person. I find it surprising that some women don't say no if they don't want to have sex and that some men may feel like they are forcing women if they don't get verbal consent. Is that rape?

I am not for one second victim blaming. I think anyone that pins any blame on a rape victim is morally wrong to do so - but doesn't a victim have to actually indicate they don't want to have sex if things are heading that way? If she does then of course it is rape if this refusal is ignored. But can it be considered rape if the man doesn't receive any signal to indicate his attentions are unwanted and the woman has engaged in sexual behaviour with him?

Another thread on boards had me thinking about drunken sex and rape too. A significant number of people believed that when a man and a woman have drunken sex, the man has raped the woman because she was unable to consent. I found this line of thinking appalling.

I'm also wondering where the boundaries lie between assault and rape.

TL;DR Is it rape if a woman doesn't expressly say yes? Can a woman claim rape if she doesn't give a verbal/physical refusal?

Thoughts?

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Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes but is consent not implied?

Not in my opinion, I actually have had several relationships where the first time we had sex the guy asked if I was comfortable to go ahead.

Rather than killing the moment, it gave me reassurance.

ViveLaVie

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes but is consent not implied?

Not in my opinion, I actually have had several relationships where the first time we had sex the guy asked if I was comfortable to go ahead.

Rather than killing the moment, it gave me reassurance.

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Lingua Franca

ViveLaVie wrote: »

THIS. I agree and I assumed this was a general viewpoint but the Reddit thread convinced me otherwise. A lot of women on that thread disagreed. It really shocked me.

The problem is that, that's just my opinion about one imaginary scenario. There's so many shades and depths and different circumstances that no one answer fits all.

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Consenting once doesn't mean permanent consent.

Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Why wouldn't you ask if it's ok, do you just go barging in there for no reason?

Phrased nicely it can actually add to the act?

Lingua Franca

Stheno wrote: »

Phrased nicely it can actually add to the act?

This, very much.,

After many happy years with my partner he will still snuggle up ask in a cheeky manner "Hey, d'ya wanna have sex?!" I find it totally adorable and sexy, and also easy to turn down if I'm not up for it.

Stheno

Lingua Franca wrote: »

This, very much.,

After many happy years with my partner he will still snuggle up ask in a cheeky manner "Hey, d'ya wanna have sex?!" I find it totally adorable and sexy, and also easy to turn down if I'm not up for it.

Exactly this

Love it, makes the anticipation so much more fun

Millicent

policarp wrote: »

There should be no such thing as rape.
A woman with her skirt up can run faster than a man with his trousers down. . .

Hope it's warm under that bridge you're posting from. :rolleyes:

ViveLaVie

I suppose I just mean in a scenario where sexual behaviour has been consented to and initiated by both parties and sex is on the cards and the woman is responding in a favourable way physically. In this situation is consent implied?

Like obviously not just randomly whipping off the clothes and doing it immediately.

mackg

up for anything wrote: »

How is a court supposed to assess levels of drunkenness?

Perhaps the fact that he has to hold a knife at her throat?

In many rapes the person being raped doesn't indicate unwillingness or say an outright no because they are in fear of the rapist and think that by staying quiet they have a better chance of living after the rape. Does that mean that they haven't been raped because they didn't say either verbally or physically? I don't think so.

Even if their is no unwillingness or outright no it's still rape if there is an implied threat and I reckon a knife to the throat would count as one.

Stheno wrote: »

In fairness most men in that state of drunkeness wouldn't be able to get it up?

I imagine that theory would make an interesting prosecution.

policarp

Millicent wrote: »

Hope it's warm under that bridge you're posting from. :rolleyes:

This is After Hours not Personal Issues.
Sorry if my type of weird humour offends you.

randylonghorn

policarp wrote: »

This is After Hours not Personal Issues.
Sorry if my type of weird humour offends you.

It's not the back of the bicycle shed either.

SuperInfinity

ViveLaVie wrote: »

One man said that he is so concerned about accidentally raping a girl that he makes sure to pause before progressing to each sexual act and gain her express verbal consent to continue.

I guess the ol' fantasy rape with whips and chains is out of the question then....

Tombi!

OP, I get that you speaking about women being raped by men. That's fine but here's my take on rape (in general):
If the person doesn't actively give a signal for the go ahead, then you need to stop.
Regardless if it's "okay, I want to have sex" or if they're ripping your clothes off, it's safe to go ahead.

If they're drinking, you should make sure you ask if they want to do it before you start actually having sex even if they're the ones that ripped their own clothes and your clothes of and is on the bed waiting.

I'd imagine if you kiss someone and then stop you/say not to do it again and you do it anyway, that isn't equal to rape exactly but it's still assault and while I wouldn't scream for their head, then I wouldn't trust them.

But to put it bluntly, if your clothes or their clothes need to come off and you're not 100% sure they want it, don't do it. Regardless if it's a man and woman, two men or two women, it should still apply.

Don't anyone get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a rapist if grab a girl's boobs in a club, you're still a bad person and should be punished.
Just make sure the other person is willing and you're fine.

Bipolar Joe

I hate these types of threads. You literally can not make an argument against without being branded a rapist.

Tombi!

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I hate these types of threads. You literally can not make an argument against without being branded a rapist.

Of course you can once you're not stupid about it.
For example: I think if two people are drunk, it's either both the fault of both parties or else neither is a rapist.

What exactly did you want to make an argument about though?

Gyalist

Rivard told the Journal-Sentinel that his comments were "taken out of context," saying his father meant to convey that if "you do (have premarital sex), just remember, consensual sex can turn into rape in an awful hurry."

"Because all of a sudden a young lady gets pregnant and the parents are madder than a wet hen and she's not going to say, 'Oh, yeah, I was part of the program.' All that she has to say or the parents have to say is it was rape because she's underage. And he just said, 'Remember, Roger, if you go down that road, some girls,' he said, 'they rape so easy,'" Rivard said.

LINK

jill_valentine

SuperInfinity wrote: »

I guess the ol' fantasy rape with whips and chains is out of the question then....

Safety words and hard limits. Go forth and learn.

Boombastic

minidazzler wrote: »

Oh, one more thing from me on it, if a girl consents to sex saying put a condom on and a guy doesn't strap up, that's at very least sexual assault to me, but more probably rape. She didn't consent to non-protected sex.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Agree, but what about the cases where a woman pretends to be on the pill, or other form of contraceptive, would that be the woman guilty of sexual assault or rape?

Stheno wrote: »

Deception at the very least, and if I understand it correctly and the man then gets an STI, assault

Wow - it's not ok for a man for a man to deceive a woman about contraception but it is ok for a woman to deceive a man about contraception, unless the man gets a sti??

Both are as despicable as each other. What if the woman gets pregnant through her own deceit, is she still the victim? - she must be or else there would be more cases of men bringing assault cases against women who lied and ended up pregnant, instead-we give them a monthly wage and a free house.

The Big Red Button

The scary thing is that, in many cases, the exact definition of rape doesn't really matter, because all it's going to come down to is one person's word against another's. And historically the law seems to side in favour of the woman.

If I were a man, I think I'd be terrified of having sex with a woman I didn't know well. Because, no matter how much verbal/implied consent was given at the time, there's always the risk that, afterwards, they'll decide that they hadn't wanted it after all, and decide that it was "rape". Obviously, the only physical evidence (if there is any) is that sexual intercourse took place. So it really will be down to the woman's statement versus the man's.

Feeona

The public worry about being accused of rape reminds me of the public worry of being raped. I'm lucky enough to never have had such an horrible incident happen to me, but there are times when the media report on a rape, and I often think 'What would I do if it happened to me?'. My answer is to take precautions, but not in such a way that my enjoyment of life is limited.

midlandsmissus

chatterpillar wrote: »

The scary thing is that, in many cases, the exact definition of rape doesn't really matter, because all it's going to come down to is one person's word against another's. And historically the law seems to side in favour of the woman.

If I were a man, I think I'd be terrified of having sex with a woman I didn't know well. Because, no matter how much verbal/implied consent was given at the time, there's always the risk that, afterwards, they'll decide that they hadn't wanted it after all, and decide that it was "rape". Obviously, the only physical evidence (if there is any) is that sexual intercourse took place. So it really will be down to the woman's statement versus the man's.

I don't think it happens that way that often Chatterpiller...

af_thefragile

Is it still rape if you yell "surprise!"???

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't think it happens that way that often Chatterpiller...

Even an accusation and recanted statement is enough for a man to be tarnished as a rapist in this country, you don't need to be guilty in the eyes of the court to be guilty in the eyes of everyone else.

midlandsmissus

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated.

Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

He should ask her 'Does she want to have sex?'

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

He should ask her 'Does she want to have sex?'

In his scenario, penetration has already occured after seeming welcome, so if she says no now, and he with draws, has rape occured?

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

Even an accusation and recanted statement is enough for a man to be tarnished as a rapist in this country, you don't need to be guilty in the eyes of the court to be guilty in the eyes of everyone else.

Obviously I don't know everyone in the country.

Just from my experience of my circle of female acquaintances who nearly all have spoken about an incident to me that distressed them at some time in their lives.

It was never a case of - that they had sex and then she regretted it,it was a always a case of saying no and that person going ahead anyway, or that person actually using physical force. These were all by acquaintances/ boyfriends or at house parties etc.

I know so many women upset about things that happened years ago. And I,myself am another one.

If there is so much suffering among women,and believe me there is, things are not working the way they are. I think men should ask any woman 'Do you want to have sex' before doing it, it would be a better world.

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

In his scenario, penetration has already occured after seeming welcome, so if she says no now, and he with draws, has rape occured?

No. I would say it's bad practice,and he should learn from it, and always ask in future.

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No. I would say it's bad practice,and he should learn from it, and always ask in future.

When everything points to sex happening, a girl pulling him in, taking some of his clothes off etc. While asking is best practice it's not necessarily needed if the situation "feels" right. The girl needs to take a bit of personal responsibility too and if she is uncomfortable say stop.

I've no need to respond to your last post, I agree with pretty much every point it IS best practice, but if everything points towards sex and nothing was said in the negative, even if a guy doesn't ask specifically it's NOT rape. If he doesn't think what he is doing is against her will then he isn't raping her.

Procrastastudy

There is nothing to stop a woman withdrawing consent in the middle of the act, even if it was there before. If you don't withdraw your penis - it's rape. Pick up any criminal law text book, there's loads of different scenarios discussed. What makes it more complicated it there doesn't just have to be the physical act (Actus reus) there has to be a mental element as well (Mens rea).

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

When everything points to sex happening, a girl pulling him in, taking some of his clothes off etc. While asking is best practice it's not necessarily needed if the situation "feels" right. The girl needs to take a bit of personal responsibility too and if she is uncomfortable say stop.

I've no need to respond to your last post, I agree with pretty much every point it IS best practice, but if everything points towards sex and nothing was said in the negative, even if a guy doesn't ask specifically it's NOT rape. If he doesn't think what he is doing is against her will then he isn't raping her.

Minidazzler, there's a difference, if she's pulling him into her - obviously I would say she wants to have sex.

If the girl is lying there, or has not made moves that explicitly suggest she wants to move to full sex, - ask.

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.

It makes sense - it's all about being respectful for the other person.