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Seen & Found

Here's a place to post and discuss pictures of sites or artifacts of general archaeological interest.
If you are not sure where to post up material you have seen or found, post here.

Please note that all archaeological objects must be reported to the National Museum of Ireland. See the stickies on the landing page.

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slowburner wrote: »

Presumably, the small enclosures are booley sites?

Regarding the Booley idea, how did these folk winter their herds? Would they have transported all their harvested winter fodder onto this hilltop?
It's a very tightly packed settlement whatever it is... Where did they keep their cattle/livestock? In the hillfort itself?

Would love to know more about it..

http://binged.it/TDMQWi
Here's a image from a photogrammetric model made of the site (i.e. the technique described in the "Poor Man's Lidar Thread) from this paper http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/INSTAR_Database/Burren_Landscape_and_Settlement_Final_Report_08.pdf

A Depiction of one of the Gateways of the Hillfort:
11.8a.jpg

11.8a.jpg

Plan Drawing of the Hillfort:
11.8b.jpg

11.8b.jpg

More info here: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/archaeology/arch_burren/part4_eastern_border_turlough_hill.htm

From the paper above, the multiple small enclosures are hut sites, and not booley sites.

Even though circular hut sites are a common feature in Irish archaeology, the extraordinary number of hut sites on the exposed and
inaccessible karst limestone of Mullaghfarna represents something beyond the ordinary...

...The majority of the hut sites consist of circular wall foundations with a width of c.1m and a height less than 0.5m.
A few of the hut sites have, however, been dug into the bedrock, and feature as circular depressions rather than
upstanding circular walls.

pp.24 - 27

Further on in that collection is an interesting note, which reflects on the relative abundance of prehistoric monuments in the Burren:

Amongst the most numerous of the field monuments preserved on the Burren are several hundred ringfort enclosures of the first millennium AD, many with associated field systems.
The relative lack of modern intensive agricultural activities has facilitated the fossilization of many of these field systems in today’s landscape.
Whilst settlement of the first millennium AD has been studied elsewhere in Ireland, nowhere does such a concentration of settlement occur in conjunction with such large expanses of preserved fields and farms.

Michelle Comber, p.90

This enclosure
http://binged.it/TFmQKc
seems to share an odd relationship with an unclassified cairn, thought by Michael Herity, (1974) to be a passage tomb
SMR W102-044
ITM 695306, 689860

slowburner wrote: »

This curious enclosure seems to share an odd relationship with an unclassified cairn, thought by Michael Herity, (1974) to be a passage tomb
SMR W102-044
ITM 695306, 689860
Not shown on the first or second edition OSI maps, although the cairn was used as a trigonometric point.

I wonder if there's any solar alignment with that cairn and the long narrow enclosure, i.e. the enclosure may frame the shadow cast by a soltice sunrise or something like that... Could be associated with the large enclosure down below maybe.. http://binged.it/TFB2Tf

Simon.d wrote: »

Do you know anything about the "settlement like" earthworks I originally posted about?

Have not seen any records of a settlement with a name similar to Ballywilliamroe / Ballymoon prior to mid 16th century. Up to that time the area was controlled by the Gaelic Kavanagh clan who expelled the Normans in the mid 1300s, so records would be scant. I have some history info on the Kavanaghs and will post anything pf interest I come across. There is also "The Medieval Moated Sites of South-EasternIreland" by Terry Barry to which I hope to have access shortly.

redtelephone wrote: »

Have not seen any records of a settlement with a name similar to Ballywilliamroe / Ballymoon prior to mid 16th century. Up to that time the area was controlled by the Gaelic Kavanagh clan who expelled the Normans in the mid 1300s, so records would be scant. I have some history info on the Kavanaghs and will post anything pf interest I come across. There is also "The Medieval Moated Sites of South-EasternIreland" by Terry Barry to which I hope to have access shortly.

This is an interesting referfence to events at "Bealach Mughna" in 908:
anecclesiastica00lanigoog_0359.tif&scale=8&rotate=0

anecclesiastica00lanigoog_0359.tif&scale=8&rotate=0

anecclesiastica00lanigoog_0360.tif&scale=8&rotate=0

Different Book:
cu31924028070708_0031.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

cu31924028070708_0031.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

Reference in a Verse of a poem from a similar period (though could be in reference to Ballaghmoon, Kildare):

" Lorcan, descendant of Bresal of the cows,
We carried off with us; - I speak no falsehood, -
A rought bright fetter was fastened
Upon that Arch-king of populous Leinster.

A night we passed at Beallach Mughna;
We did not wet our fine hair;
The snow was on the ground before us
In the noisy Bealach Gabhran.

We were a night at the clear Fliodais;
We received food and ale,
And hogs were sent to our camp,
By the hospitable chiefs of Ossory."

Thanks for that. The location of the battle has generated a lot of comment over the years. Liam Price, author of Placenames of Wicklow, and authority on older placenames, mentions the battle of Ballaghmoon (908 AD) in his article “Place-Name Study as Applied to History” (Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland 1949). Ballaghmoon was thought for many years by writers such as Lanigan (Ecclesiastical History of Ireland) , Sylvester O’Halloran, and John O’Donovan to have been Ballymoon in Co Carlow. However, Price makes a convincing case that the place referred to in early documents is actually Ballaghmoon, Co. Kildare, just north of Carlow on the Castledermot road, and not Ballymoon Co. Carlow, to which he says there is no reference “… in any ancient document, nor does the name occur, so far as I know, in any Anglo-Norman document. It appears first, on a late 16th century map (the so-called Mercator map, my comment), as B:moone, (in the State Papers in 1587 as Balemowan, and in 1612, 1640, etc., as Ballymone. These forms do not suggest that the original name contained the word bealach but rather that the first part of it was baile. The form of the name therefore does not support the identification of this place with Belach Mugna. Furthermore , the position of Ballymoon, which is 4 miles south-east of Leighlinbridge is quite inconsistent with the accounts of the battle.” He describes how Cormac mac Cuilenain who was killed in the battle was buried at Castledermot, Co. Kildare, 4 miles from Ballaghmoon, but 20 miles from Ballymoon. After much more evidence, he concludes “it is ..reasonably certain that Ballymoon is not the same place as Belach Mugna where the battle was fought, and where the men from Aileach encamped 40 years later.” [The men of Aileach feature in the verse you quote.]
I wonder if Ballymoon was called something entirely different in medieval times, and if it is found to be so, will it shed light on the story of its castle and ringfort.

redtelephone wrote: »

I wonder if Ballymoon was called something entirely different in medieval times, and if it is found to be so, will it shed light on the story of its castle and ringfort.

I would assume that the "moon" portion of Ballymoon, shares the same etymology as "Muine" portion of nearby Muine-beag... William Petty seems to pronounce both placenames as "money" which ties in this association, with his spellings "monibeg" & "ballimony" in c1650. The implication is therefore in my mind that the Muine portion at least is an old placename.. The bally bit may have come later, and it seems to be associated with the present day settlement & church which lies good bit to the West of the castle & earthworks.
rRxoR.jpg?5966

rRxoR.jpg?5966

Do you know much about the history of Ballywilliamroe? That mercator map features a settlement called "Wil.Roeys'town", and The castle seems to have been listed within that townland in the Downs Survey and other references.... Was there a person called William Roey?
frzic.jpg?8448

frzic.jpg?8448

Maybe Wil. Roeys' town could explain the earthworks around the castle?

http://binged.it/PsTzBv - Any thoughts on this one? Not listed on the NMS, and seems to have been part of landscaped gardens associated with nearby Waterstown House. It looks to have been heavily wooded in the two osi surveys, so the apparent earthworks may have been missed...

Simon.d wrote: »

I would assume that the "moon" portion of Ballymoon, shares the same etymology as "Muine" portion of nearby Muine-beag... William Petty seems to pronounce both placenames as "money" which ties in this association, with his spellings "monibeg" & "ballimony" in c1650. The implication is therefore in my mind that the Muine portion at least is an old placename.. The bally bit may have come later, and it seems to be associated with the present day settlement & church which lies good bit to the West of the castle & earthworks.

The earliest versions of the Ballymoon name are Balimoan (1280) and Ballemone (1549). There are many other instances up to
the Down Survey 1655, all of which have the single syllable -moan -moane -moon ending. The DS has the first instance of the two syllable -monny,
which can signify muine, like Ballymoney in Wicklow which is given as Baile Muine, and many other Ballymoneys. However the earlier versions of a placename
is normally taken to be the more accurate, since the spellings were more likely to be phonetic.

Simon.d wrote: »

Do you know much about the history of Ballywilliamroe? That mercator map features a settlement called "Wil.Roeys'town", and The castle seems to have been listed within that townland in the Downs Survey and other references.... Was there a person called William Roey?

Maybe Wil. Roeys' town could explain the earthworks around the castle?

There is a possible identification in the O'Nolan clan, who were close allies of the Kavanaghs and held the barony of Forth in central Carlow for many hundreds of years.

Grant no 125 in the Calendar of Ormond Deeds Vol 5, p.137 has:

"William Roo O'Nolan of Garrygroghan. county Carlow, gentleman, grants to Sir Edmund Butler of Cloughgrenan, all his possessions in Ballyteample in
said county, to him and his heirs and assigns for ever.
Redmund Purcell of Tullaghfelem and Nicholas Tywe of the same, yeomen. to deliver seisin.
February 20, 1564."

It just might be that William Roo O'Nolan was William Roe of Ballywilliamroe. It might seem also that Ballyteample was "Town of the Temple", i.e. Ballymoon castle. That would have made a neat solution to all of this.
However, another document, the Will of James Earl of Ormond in 1546, shows that Ballytemple was just another name for Chapelstown,
east of Carlow town, which goes to show that all is not what it first appears to be. William Roo O'Nolan is the only person I have found so far who could be a possible candidate for our William Roe/y. The search is ongoing.

Simon.d wrote: »

http://binged.it/PsTzBv - Any thoughts on this one? Not listed on the NMS, and seems to have been part of landscaped gardens associated with nearby Waterstown House. It looks to have been heavily wooded in the two osi surveys, so the apparent earthworks may have been missed...

http://binged.it/OoTnyX - Something Similar Looking.. Listed on the NMS with a rather vague description: A hilltop enclosure. Any thoughts?

Simon.d wrote: »

http://binged.it/OoTnyX - Something Similar Looking.. Listed on the NMS with a rather vague description: A hilltop enclosure. Any thoughts?

It looks very much like a classic motte and bailey, in the Bing and OSI imagery.
The fact that it is not mentioned in the SMR could indicate that it is thought (rightly or wrongly) to be a feature of C.18th landscaping - a folly perhaps.
Pathways certainly paid respect to the feature in the first edition map.

Whatever the feature is, it could be the locus described by existing roads, which in turn, might follow the remnants of earlier features.
This becomes quite evident if you pan out (see image below).
If the 'motte and bailey' is a C.18th folly - it's of historical, rather than archaeological interest.

My gut tells me that the mound is the real feature, rather than the obvious earthworks, and that the roads describe the earlier structure.
It's an interesting find!
It would be very interesting to know more.

slowburner wrote: »

It looks very much like a classic motte and bailey, in the Bing and OSI imagery.

The following could explain the rational for building a "motte and bailey" folly on the Waterstown estate:

"Following the Cromwellian land confiscations, Robert Temple purchased much of the lands of the area in 1684 and established the Temples as the local gentry. His daughter, Elizabeth Temple famously rode her horse up the Norman motte and by doing so, the village became known as “Mount Temple”. Many locals continued to call the area Caulry despite its new name and it was long time before it was universally accepted. Elizabeth Temple married Gustavus Handcock of Waterstown Estate, Glasson in 1725. Both are buried at St Mary’s Church, Athlone. Their descendants became the Lords and Ladies of Castlemaine, residing at Moydrum Castle, Baylin. The IRA militia burnt down their magnificent stately home in 1921. This was a reprisal attack for the burning of a number of farmhouses in Coosan by British Crown forces earlier that day."

So is it a confirmed folly, or a genuine motte?

slowburner wrote: »

So is it a confirmed folly, or a genuine motte?

No confirmation either way..

That passage regards a different motte and bailey site in Mount Temple, a few miles away.. However it signifies an importance of this type of site in the post Cromwell owners of the Waterstown estate, so they may have sculpted such a feature in their garden...

Also of note is a castle site on the banks of the small lake closeby to the south..

http://binged.it/PhNjLo - An interesting Ringfort to the north..

http://binged.it/O74LFi - Impressive multivallate earthwork fortifications in Meath

http://binged.it/V05szp - Very busy landscape around it.. Associated Settlement?

http://binged.it/V0blwA , http://binged.it/O774Z2 - Loughcrew Passage Tombs very close by..

http://binged.it/O7kqo9 , http://binged.it/V0GvUw - Neighbouring fortresses in Sligo
http://binged.it/V0GSP5 - Passage Tomb just to the Southeast

http://binged.it/O7lV5I - Potential semi-circular enclosure by a riverbank near Colooney, Sligo.. Not listed by NMS.. Shape reminds me of a Viking Longphort, beside what looks like and old bridge site... Close to the coast too...
http://binged.it/O7mmwY - Lots of well preserved archaeology around the immediate area..

Fries-With-That

Does anyone else find this area interesting, its south east 1km approx of Gortymadden in Co Galway.

I tried to capture the image here http://binged.it/Ry1kme it appears to be a cluster of ring forts within 400metres of each other forming a square.

Three of them appear to be approx the same size and one of them in the south east corner is tiny.

As you can see from the map one of them is little more than a formation under the ploughed earth.

There are a few other ring forts in the area and several of what appear to be markings below the surface indicating roads or earthworks.

Apologies if incorrect terminology is used.

Fries-With-That wrote: »

Does anyone else find this area interesting, its south east 1km approx of Gortymadden in Co Galway.

I tried to capture the image here http://binged.it/Ry1kme it appears to be a cluster of ring forts within 400metres of each other forming a square.

Three of them appear to be approx the same size and one of them in the south east corner is tiny.

As you can see from the map one of them is little more than a formation under the ploughed earth.

There are a few other ring forts in the area and several of what appear to be markings below the surface indicating roads or earthworks.

Apologies if incorrect terminology is used.

The southeasterly circle is interesting ( http://binged.it/Qn6aX7 ).... It's not a ring fort, not big enough with a diameter of 12m, and the thickness of the cropmark is too thin, i.e. not a fortified structure methinks.. It's so crisp and circular I'm thinking it could be modern, however it could very well be the remnants of some ancient round house.. Not listed on the NMS either way... Can anyone think of a modern explanation?

http://binged.it/PSLzYO - Listed ring barrow visible as crop marks near Castledermot, Carlow...

Simon.d wrote: »

http://binged.it/O74LFi - Impressive multivallate earthwork fortifications in Meath

http://binged.it/V05szp - Very busy landscape around it.. Associated Settlement?

http://binged.it/V0blwA , http://binged.it/O774Z2 - Loughcrew Passage Tombs very close by..

The area around Loughcrew has a vast number of sites dotted around it, must have been quite a significant monument in its day, right up there with Newgranege/Knowth/Dowth in importance. Its obvious why after a trip to the top of Slieve na Callaigh, you can see all the way to Tara, down to Croghan hill to the south on a clear day, over as far as Uisneach and north well up into Cavan. Read a very interesting book about the Acoustics of the passage tombs there by Paul Devereaux a few years back, Makes me think perhaps there may have been some ceremonies that involved steam and sunlight on the solstice using the interference patterns to produce some spectacular visuals to ring in the new Season. It is a fascinating monument.

Another one close by, Several standing stones, a few ringforts, one of them has a raised ditch walkway running from the existing road all the way down to the ringfort, along the south-west edge of the forestry. Stone arrow-heads were discovered in the adjacent fields.

http://binged.it/QBCT8o - Could this be a Crannóg? It's very low lying in the water, and totally submerged on some of the osi aerial surveys. It has a diameter of 25m or so...

There seems to be a strong underwater linear feature protuding in an south-westerly direction on this image (1995 osi aerial survey)..
AhvM2.png?3127

AhvM2.png?3127

Simon.d wrote: »

http://binged.it/QBCT8o - Could this be a Crannóg? It's very low lying in the water, and totally submerged on some of the osi aerial surveys. It has a diameter of 25m or so...

There seems to be a strong underwater linear feature protuding in an south-westerly direction on this image (1995 osi aerial survey)..

Such an interesting find Simon.d. Don't know the Area personally bar lots of bing imaging and google earth... I did visit loughcrew for a day a few months ago and was impressed by how big a vantage you get from Cairn T... here's a link to a blog that has some nice photos from there this Autumn Equinox just passed - one of the two alignment times for this particular cairn.

The concentric feature you show here looks manmade alright (my opinion is all!) very like a crannóg. It's right at the mouth of the 'upper inny river' according to the bingmap link attached... you'd have a lot of silt and sediment that would easily cover up any features tehere with time!!

Although, if you look at the bingmap, the silted water itself near the mouth of the river gives impression of a straight line feature where it meets the clearer lake water.

Its a tricky one, many of those reed-beds tend to develop in a circular fashion, which makes them very deceptive like this one:

?v=2&cp=53.797617~-7.288349&lvl=18&dir=0&sty=h&eo=0&form=LMLTCC

?v=2&cp=53.797617~-7.288349&lvl=18&dir=0&sty=h&eo=0&form=LMLTCC

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.457636~-7.424422&lvl=15&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC

The small island visible in the image is a definite confirmed Crannog, I've snorkelled around it a number of times and stakes are still visible in the lake bed, whereas the reed beds nearby, although circular in shape, have no visible evidence of any Stakes or construction.

The best way to confirm it would be a quick inspection. some of the local sub-aqua clubs might have a look for you on a Sunday outing or training dive. Some do visit Sheelin as a training for the unfortunate call-outs we get every few years.

AngryHippie wrote: »

Its a tricky one, many of those reed-beds tend to develop in a circular fashion, which makes them very deceptive like this one:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.457636~-7.424422&lvl=15&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC

The small island visible in the image is a definite confirmed Crannog, I've snorkelled around it a number of times and stakes are still visible in the lake bed, whereas the reed beds nearby, although circular in shape, have no visible evidence of any Stakes or construction.

The best way to confirm it would be a quick inspection. some of the local sub-aqua clubs might have a look for you on a Sunday outing or training dive. Some do visit Sheelin as a training for the unfortunate call-outs we get every few years.

Agree completely... Would love if someone in the area could have a look.. !

However what makes me think it's unlikely to be a reed bed (or some other vegetation based feature) is it's geometric stability, as in the aerial imagery covering a near 20 year period (1995 - present), the feature has maintained it's shape, diameter and location.. One would expect vegetation to be a little more dynamic..

That does change things ! those reed beds will develop and grow over the course of a few years, definitely worth getting someone in for a look-see.
I'd be giving Mullingar SAC a call, just checking with them if they'd be interested in doing a quick scout over as a training dive or a drill for Lough Sheelin. They might be helpful, if not Longford may be of help

http://binged.it/WkS09T - Unlisted rectangular enclosure alongside Lough Derg..

Perhaps something to do with the adjacent church ?

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,573392,681435,7,9

Or the marked Castle (site of) to the east