Abortion

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Says you, after asking literally everyone who has had sex, ever.

What? Try to make sense please!

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Ahava wrote: »

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

Well the most premature born baby was 21 weeks and five days and some woman have abortions after that in America!

Napper Hawkins

Sponge25 wrote: »

What? Try to make sense please!

Take your own advice.

eviltwin

cynder wrote: »

Angry that they had to travel, do you want home abortions now? Of course they had to travel. They need counseling because they have to travel. I wonder if they need counseling if they ever go abroad on holiday or to work.

Most don't openly admit to it do they dont get abuse or hateful comments, or reactions that might hurt them.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counseling. As people have said it's only a bunch of cells, well so are tonsils. Same could be Said for a smear test.

Not to many need counseling after a break up. A small few do. Did your friend need in depth counseling? I don't know 1 single person who needed counseling because they broke up with someone. Yes it does happen but again only a small few and the shorter they are going out the easier it is to get over it, 12 weeks is a short time to be going out with someone.

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

eviltwin wrote: »

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

Sponge25 wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

Ah, well done to her. I'd refuse too if I was a girl. (unless the baby was gonna suffer really badly)

Atleast the baby got a hug from its mum but it must have been REALLLLLY hard on the parents!

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

In this study they use heart activity as a detection method at 6 weeks (though I'm sure this is using sensitive equipment).
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/9/1937.full
(sorry if off topic but LyndaMcL looking for a reliable source). Is heart beat a particularly important indicator of anything though?

In relation to the counseling issue, is this argument taking place in a hypothetical context or a real world one, because though I'd fully support the funding of counseling for woman that have had an abortion (in fact I think in an ideal world counseling should be available to basically everybody that wants it), in Ireland today however with the shockingly high levels of suicide in younger men and a climate of reduced funding, to be harsh I don't think resources should be prioritized towards it at the expense of other mental health related funding

EvilTwin: Ya have to understand some people have very strong feelings about it and that's why they said things that hurt ya. Ya don't have to not post your experience:( I kinda understand a bit more but I still don't think it's right so atleast ya made a person like me think about it more!

eviltwin

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

It takes a very strong person to do that. When you are pregnant you almost become public property in a way, people stop you and ask you questions all the time....I don't know how I would cope with all that knowing my baby wouldn't live. And having to go to hospitals for check ups etc and have to see other women with their pregnancies or babies....I hope that she was treated sensitively.

But for a woman who chooses abortion, she too can spend time with her baby...many of the UK hospitals allow couples to keep the baby overnight, they encourage parents to dress and hold the baby, take photos etc

Don't think that a family in that same situation who takes another path doesn't mourn their child or dehumanises them. Its a loss for them regardless of circumstances.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

From my understanding of it, if the pregnancy is not viable its not an abortion as such (previous post of mine addressed this issue of definition), as such these procedures do occur when there is a risk to the mothers health. Now there maybe issues 'on the ground' so to speak in Ireland (I know of an example where the procedure could have taken place in Ireland but it was quicker and easier for it to occur in the UK).
Personally I don;t get how anyone pro-choice or pro-life could oppose an improvement in Irelands Health service in relation to these issues (referring to the clear cut cases of non-viability).

Ahava

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

This information is widely available. Here is a link to a website providing an overview of fetal development and also has links to scientific research.

A standard ultrasound will detect a heartbeat at 6-7 weeks, thus confirming viability of pregnancy. Sometimes the heartbeat isn't clearly visible until the week 8 but the vast majority of heartbeats are clearly seen around 6 weeks (that's 4 weeks after conception).

Dyr

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Ahava wrote: »

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

are you asking people for scientific proof of something they know in their heart of hearts? this is an abortion debate we'll
have no requests for proof here.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

From my understanding of it, if the pregnancy is not viable its not an abortion as such (previous post of mine addressed this issue of definition), as such these procedures do occur when there is a risk to the mothers health. Now there maybe issues 'on the ground' so to speak in Ireland (I know of an example where the procedure could have taken place in Ireland but it was quicker and easier for it to occur in the UK).
Personally I don;t get how anyone pro-choice or pro-life could oppose an improvement in Irelands Health service in relation to these issues (referring to the clear cut cases of non-viability).

I just don't want in my heart for any babies to die, wether trough abortion or otherwise. (Unless ofcourse it was due to rape, in which case the rapist forced the abortion upon the lady. and/or the baby is very sick and gonna die or the mother is gonna die.)

It's abortion wether the baby is viable or not! Not just to me but even if pro-abortion people!

Sponge25 wrote: »

I just don't want in my heart for any babies to die, wether trough abortion or otherwise. (Unless ofcourse it was due to rape, in which case the rapist forced the abortion upon the lady. and/or the baby is very sick and gonna die or the mother is gonna die.)

It's abortion wether the baby is viable or not! Not just to me but even if pro-abortion people!

I don't think anybody (well by anybody I exclude a select few crazy "feminist"* commentators and the CCP) is really that happy with the idea of babies,fetus's, bunches of cells etc dying but its a difference of opinion on rights and/or the imposition of values upon other people.

Just because a lot of people misunderstand a definition doesn't change the definition e.g pedophilia vs pederasty

* not tarring feminists or pro-choice people referring to a certain Guardian commentator who would self identify as feminist (she;s been brought up in the thread before somewhere)

e.g. in an ectopic pregnancy will have to be operated on for the mother to survive, the termination of the fetus is not the goal of the operation, this is different to a situation such as the termination of the fetus in relation to rape/incest where the direct goal is the termination of the fetus (I'm not making a value judgement here btw).
Of course it could be argued that all pregnancy/childbirth is a risk to a mothers life/quality of life which is why even though the UK laws appear quite strict 200,000 occur a year in the UK (the UK is interesting because if the letter of the law was applied differently there could be a regime that would not satisfy many pro-choice people as abortion is only an option on the assessment of medical professionals)

RDM_83 again wrote: »

e.g. in an ectopic pregnancy will have to be operated on for the mother to survive, the termination of the fetus is not the goal of the operation, this is different to a situation such as the termination of the fetus in relation to rape/incest where the direct goal is the termination of the fetus (I'm not making a value judgement here btw).
Of course it could be argued that all pregnancy/childbirth is a risk to a mothers life/quality of life which is why even though the UK laws appear quite strict 200,000 occur a year in the UK (the UK is interesting because if the letter of the law was applied differently there could be a regime that would not satisfy many pro-choice people as abortion is only an option on the assessment of medical professionals)

200,000 per year? Damn that's alot! I thought it was something like 4000-5000max!

Chain_reaction

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

What is the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking?

I've a feeling you're throwing that out there to make women who chose to end pregnancies in those circumstances feel guilty.

To add to that are you sure she was offered to end the pregnancy on Irish shores??

Helix

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

those 18 minutes can't have been pleasant for the child

it's a bit selfish making it live through that no?

Esoteric_

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.

Read back some of your posts, and call me brainwashed again.

If I'm brainwashed, I'm sure as hell not the only one.

Oh and as far as brainwashing goes - my family are all adamantly pro-life. I am the only person in my family and my extended family who is pro-choice. I made my own decisions. If I wanted to be brainwashed, I'd still be pro-life as I was as a child.

Esoteric_

Bambi wrote: »

are you asking people for scientific proof of something they know in their heart of hearts? this is an abortion debate we'll
have no requests for proof here.

:pac::pac::pac:

Sponge25 wrote: »

200,000 per year? Damn that's alot! I thought it was something like 4000-5000max!

About that number travel to the UK from Ireland each year maybe thats what your thinking off?

If your shocked by that figure, the fact that 2600 are on the 4th one will probably surprise you even more.*

Yeah to be honest I'm not particularly opposed to abortion as such (at an early term not simply pre 24 weeks) but I don;t like the idea of it being an extremely common place procedure however this is a position I can not rationalize very well (and so tend not to state it in debates such as this) as its ethically and morally very murky, its much easier to justify a more absolute pro-life or extremely pro-choice position morally and ethically.

* yes daily mail link but they don;t tend to directly lie about figures
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1281269/Number-abortions-UK-falls-48-women-SEVEN.html

LyndaMcL wrote: »

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.
.

In fairness both myself and Ahava have posted pretty authoritative links since you asked for facts which show early heart activity.

Esoteric_

RDM_83 again wrote: »

In fairness both myself and Ahava have posted pretty authoritative links since you asked for facts which show early heart activity.

My bad. I think I thanked yours, although can't remember. I posted that post before reading back on the thread.

LyndaMcL wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.

Read back some of your posts, and call me brainwashed again.

If I'm brainwashed, I'm sure as hell not the only one.

Oh and as far as brainwashing goes - my family are all adamantly pro-life. I am the only person in my family and my extended family who is pro-choice. I made my own decisions. If I wanted to be brainwashed, I'd still be pro-life as I was as a child.

Yes I believe I can't remember the week I was when I first heard my babies heart beat but I was around 16 weeks, I know I saw it beating in the scans.

Go to the pregnancy forum and ask them when they first heard their babies heart beat...

Chain_reaction wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

What is the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking?

I've a feeling you're throwing that out there to make women who chose to end pregnancies in those circumstances feel guilty.

To add to that are you sure she was offered to end the pregnancy on Irish shores??

She was offered an abortion in Ireland. That's why I posted it, one person asked if abortions were performed here, if it was offered to her here then yes they must be performed here.