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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

PDN

This new 'catch-all' thread will operate similar to the Creationism and Protestant/Catholic Debate threads.

Too many threads are spoilt and dragged off topic when a non-Christian poster demands, "What evidence do you have for God?" While some may enjoy such discussion, it is frequently off-topic and derails discussion of other subjects (the very discussion that is the reason for this Forum's existence).

So, in order to protect the Forum and facilitate on topic discussions, all that stuff now belongs here. Anyone who keeps trying to derail other discussions by demanding evidence for God's existence will be warned, and if those warnings are ignored then swift infractions and bans will ensue.

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Fanny Cradock

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Correct I stand by that. You will find some that are just like you will find some scientists that are creationists but as I keep saying to you look at the pattern. Intelligence and educational level goes up, chances of being religious go down.
Intelligence and educational level go down, chances of being religious go way up.

It doesn't mean one side is right or one side is wrong. It just means what it means.

Well you obviously put a great deal of weigh behind it because you keep mentioning it to us. The thing is, saying "It just means what it means" in actuality means very little.

Their might be a correlation between atheism and education. There might also be a correlation between atheism and wealth, atheism and being a white middle-class European male or atheism and any number of things.

philologos

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Correct I stand by that. You will find some that are just like you will find some scientists that are creationists but as I keep saying to you look at the pattern. Intelligence and educational level goes up, chances of being religious go down.
Intelligence and educational level go down, chances of being religious go way up.

It doesn't mean one side is right or one side is wrong. It just means what it means.

Well you obviously put a great deal of weigh behind it because you keep mentioning it to us. The thing is, saying "It just means what it means" in actuality means very little.

Their might be a correlation between atheism and education. There might also be a correlation between atheism and wealth, atheism and being a white middle-class European male or atheism and any number of things.

There's a correlation between wealth and atheism.

There's a correlation between IQ and wealth.

This is for the most part what explains it. There are more believers in poorer countries.

Guess what, that even backs up Deuteronomy 32 where it speaks of what prospering in the promised land will do to the Israelites.

marienbad

more like a correlation between education and atheism , ireland being a perfect example.

lmaopml

marienbad wrote: »

more like a correlation between education and atheism , ireland being a perfect example.

More like a correlation between those who think that they are brainy by association and lack of thought at all - Ireland being a victim. Which is even worse than any kind of actual correlation that may be considered truly Irish Marien.

marienbad

lmaopml wrote: »

More like a correlation between those who think that they are brainy by association and lack of thought at all - Ireland being a victim. Which is even worse than any kind of actual correlation that may be considered truly Irish Marien.

I don't understand what you are saying here lmaopml.

pauldla

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well you obviously put a great deal of weigh behind it because you keep mentioning it to us. The thing is, saying "It just means what it means" in actuality means very little.

Their might be a correlation between atheism and education. There might also be a correlation between atheism and wealth, atheism and being a white middle-class European male or atheism and any number of things.

That's interesting. Is it useful to compare wealth, atheism and education levels in developed countries with wealth, atheism and education levels in developing countries?

Are you less likey to believe in god if you are wealthy, or are you less likely to believe in god if you are well-educated?

philologos

marienbad wrote: »

more like a correlation between education and atheism , ireland being a perfect example.

On this forum you have educated people. Most Christians in Ireland are well educated. It sounds like you're making a hollow claim with no basis.

pauldla

philologos wrote: »

On this forum you have educated people. Most Christians in Ireland are well educated. It sounds like you're making a hollow claim with no basis.

As have you

philologos

pauldla wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

On this forum you have educated people. Most Christians in Ireland are well educated. It sounds like you're making a hollow claim with no basis.

As have you

???

pauldla

"Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated"

Hollow claim, with two very debatable terms.

philologos

pauldla wrote: »

"Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated"

Hollow claim, with two very debatable terms.

Not debatable or hollow. Based on a lot of experience and most would consider someone with a third level degree to be well educated.

pauldla

philologos wrote: »

Not debatable or hollow. Based on a lot of experience and most would consider someone with a third level degree to be well educated.

So the basis for your claim is anecdotal? But your claim is not hollow or debatable?

If most people in Ireland are Christian, do you therefore mean that Irish people, in general, are well-educated?

philologos

pauldla wrote: »

So the basis for your claim is anecdotal? But your claim is not hollow or debatable?

If most people in Ireland are Christian, do you therefore mean that Irish people, in general, are well-educated?

Did you even read mariens post? I'm not saying Christians are better educated than atheists. That would be a silly argument.

pauldla

That would be a silly argument, I agree. I didn't say you were making it.

What you did claim was

Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated

and you went on to state that this claim was

Not debatable or hollow

but then you said that your claim was

Based on a lot of experience

which to me seems like its anecdotal i.e. based on a small or unreliable sample, and that thus your original claim

Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated

may indeed be

debatable or hollow

JimiTime

I can't help but think, 'Why the hell care'. Even if it was true that there were more educated atheists than Christians, why the hell would I care? I remember watching a programme on autism where it was said that many geniuses were autistic and or OCD. They referenced silicon valley etc. It was said that it likely took this obsessive and socially challenged behaviour to make these people come up with what they did. So maybe more atheists are obsessive and autistic, but I doubt they'll be looking for that particular correlation.

All in all, I can understand if it were true that there are more atheists scientists etc. Christians are called to serve God, to seek first the kingdom. To live by the law of Love. IF there are more atheist geniuses than Christian ones, I can see a few reasons why this could be the case, and none of them would bother me in the slightest. As for certain atheists being obsessed with the topic, well I think its just that certain people place IQ etc as of great great worth, and if they are looking for things to diss religion, then the implication that religious people are less intelligent etc probably just satisfies a desire for it to be the case. Maybe they are on average less intelligent, who knows. Maybe they simply have things they deem more important, so don't spend as much time obsessing on their particular field. Who knows, and why would anyone really care

philologos

All mariens argument needs is anecdotal evidence to refute

Tim Robbins

philologos wrote: »

On this forum you have educated people. Most Christians in Ireland are well educated. It sounds like you're making a hollow claim with no basis.

I only dip in and out but I don't think there is one regular Christian poster here who has a deep understanding of Science, Maths or Software Engineering. At least I have never seen it.

Sorry.

A few of you are very good at scripture and make people like me look ignorant in that regard - no problem admitting that.

pauldla

philologos wrote: »

All mariens argument needs is anecdotal evidence to refute

So, your point is, the Irish people I know are generally Christian and well-educated, so therefore...?

I'm interested to see the conclusions you can draw from this.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

I can't help but think, 'Why the hell care'. Even if it was true that there were more educated atheists than Christians, why the hell would I care?

The usual human reaction would be that it dents your confidence that you are right.

I remember watching a programme on autism where it was said that many geniuses were autistic and or OCD. They referenced silicon valley etc. It was said that it likely took this obsessive and socially challenged behaviour to make these people come up with what they did. So maybe more atheists are obsessive and autistic, but I doubt they'll be looking for that particular correlation.

Yeah - I would definetly agree the more logically you are the more likely you hit the beginning of the autistic spectrum. OCD on the other hand I'd say is more likely to be corrrelated with religious people. The constant irrational repititive behaviour is more likely to suck in religious people.

Who knows, and why would anyone really care

I think it is interesting to understand why some people are religious and some are not. You Christians generally think the reason why we are not religious is because we have not made enough of an effort to get to know Jesus, read the scripture, read C. S. Lewis whatever...

I think it is more likely a matter of intelligence, education, emotional insecurity, cultural background why one person is religious and another person is not.

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I only dip in and out but I don't think there is one regular Christian poster here who has a deep understanding of Science, Maths or Software Engineering. At least I have never seen it.

Sorry.

A few of you are very good at scripture and make people like me look ignorant in that regard - no problem admitting that.

Firstly, why do you think you'd see such a thing on a Christian forum anyway. Even so though, so what? Lets say the thing you are alluding to is actually correct, what really is the point?

philologos

I'm with you Jimi. You can show people as much as you like that their claims are alien to reality or in the case of Tim that they are entirely prejudiced and bigoted in respect to Christians. Its not worth the time and energy I could be doing more productive things here.

philologos

pauldla wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

All mariens argument needs is anecdotal evidence to refute

So, your point is, the Irish people I know are generally Christian and well-educated, so therefore...?

I'm interested to see the conclusions you can draw from this.

Therefore mariens argument was wrong.

Did you read the posts to get the context of the discussion or did you reply without doing that?

The Irish people I actually know are mostly agnostic / atheist. Most adult Christians in Ireland at any church I attended during the 22 years I lived there were educated to university level.

As I said before I'm done dealing with such prejudices that certain posters have against Christians.

tommy2bad

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think it is interesting to understand why some people are religious and some are not. You Christians generally think the reason why we are not religious is because we have not made enough of an effort to get to know Jesus, read the scripture, read C. S. Lewis whatever...

I think it is more likely a matter of intelligence, education, emotional insecurity, cultural background why one person is religious and another person is not.

It is interesting but no more so than why some people don't like reading or sports or heavy metal music and some do.

I don't think religion is correlated with intelligence or wealth, education has a role to play but mostly it cultural. Actual belief in God rather than cultural religiosity is another thing all together. Why do some people believe in God and some cant see the point of believing or cant find beliefs within themselves? I think it's a matter of psychological make up. Some people are born that way.
Just to be fair I'm not saying that this orientation towards belief is a flaw or a superior trait, it's just how people are.
What is annoying is an atheist assuming that atheists are more intelligent, better looking and wealthier than theists based on no more than their own bias to atheism.

marienbad

The point I am making is that the more educated a society becomes the less religious it becomes , and Ireland is a great example.

Have I proof of this ? not really no but I am sure it is out there.

I don't think though that anyone would deny that the Ireland of the 50's was more religious than the Ireland of the 70's and this trend was obvious long before the sex abuse issues etc.

To me the difference was education and not intelligence .

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The usual human reaction would be that it dents your confidence that you are right.

Why would it do that?

You'll have to talk slowly remember as I'm a Christian:p:pac:

Yeah - I would definetly agree the more logically you are the more likely you hit the beginning of the autistic spectrum.
OCD on the other hand I'd say is more likely to be corrrelated with religious people. The constant irrational repititive behaviour is more likely to suck in religious people.

Interesting assessment. You believe people get sucked into OCD? Haven't quite seen such an opinion before. Did you mean to say people with OCD are sucked into religion rather than the other way round?

Anyway, from my limited information on the subject, a lot of autistic folk are obsessive which in the programme I seen suggested that it meant they could spend so much time on formulae etc. I'd say there are many religious/OCD religious people too though. As for the constant Irrational repetitive behaviour, well I would consider you an expert in that field so I wont argue.
'CS Lewis sucks!' 'Atheists are smarter than Religious people!' seems to be a rather obsessive ball you chew:)

I think it is interesting to understand why some people are religious and some are not. You Christians generally think the reason why we are not religious is because we have not made enough of an effort to get to know Jesus, read the scripture, read C. S. Lewis whatever...

I certainly don't think that, but you've obviously had that experience a lot so I wont argue with it. I don't think reasoning scripture etc will convert a non believer. Not in the slightest.

I think it is more likely a matter of intelligence, education, emotional insecurity, cultural background why one person is religious and another person is not.

They probably all play a part to some degree in many religious and non-religious people, I still don't see much worth in the info though.

pauldla

philologos wrote: »

Therefore mariens argument was wrong.

Did you read the posts to get the context of the discussion or did you reply without doing that?

The Irish people I actually know are mostly agnostic / atheist. Most adult Christians in Ireland at any church I attended during the 22 years I lived there were educated to university level.

As I said before I'm done dealing with such prejudices that certain posters have against Christians.

I am taking issue with your claim that 'Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated'.

You have maintained that this claim is not debatable, which in itself is nonsense, but you have not given any firm evidence to support your claim.

I also asked you if, given that 'Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated', and given that most people in Ireland profess to be Christian, does this mean that most Irish people are well-educated, as would logically seem to follow from your premise?

In response you have given strawman arguments ('I'm not saying Christians are better educated than atheists.') claims that I am 'prejudiced against Christians' (asking you to explain or stand by a claim you make is an example of prejudice?), and evasions.

Rather than standing by your (rather self-serving, it has to be said) claims, you're now spitting the dummy and refusing to engage in discourse, claiming prejudice against Christians. Such a pity to see, in one so bright.

philologos

pauldla wrote: »

I am taking issue with your claim that 'Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated'.

You have maintained that this claim is not debatable, which in itself is nonsense, but you have not given any firm evidence to support your claim.

I also asked you if, given that 'Most Christians in Ireland are well-educated', and given that most people in Ireland profess to be Christian, does this mean that most Irish people are well-educated, as would logically seem to follow from your premise?

In response you have given strawman arguments ('I'm not saying Christians are better educated than atheists.') claims that I am 'prejudiced against Christians' (asking you to explain or stand by a claim you make is an example of prejudice?), and evasions.

Rather than standing by your (rather self-serving, it has to be said) claims, you're now spitting the dummy and refusing to engage in discourse, claiming prejudice against Christians. Such a pity to see, in one so bright.

Paul - for the last time. I find it frustrating that you've not even listened to what I've said.

marien said the following:

more like a correlation between education and atheism , ireland being a perfect example.

From my experience in the last 22 years in Irish churches (I've been to quite a few). I've noticed that most people in those churches are university educated. Marien's quote flies in the face of my experience. I've told you what it means pauldla, several times. I've told you that it means that most people who attend Irish churches are well educated from experience. To be honest, all I need to say that marien's argument is rubbish is my experience.

For marien's argument to be sound, she would need to show that there are less university educated people in churches than the average. I suspect she'd have a lot of difficulty in presenting that argument.

I think it is prejudiced and bigoted to claim that Christians are inferior to atheists. I never said that you were prejudiced, but I do believe that marien and Tim are certainly for presenting ad-hominem arguments without basis on the Christianity forum about Christians being inferior to non-believers.

It's not a "strawman" to say that I wasn't arguing that. You weren't very clear as to what your objection to my post was. You're still not being all that clear actually.

In other countries it's a mixed bag, see here.

I'm finished on this topic. It's not particularly fruitful in any meaningful way.

pauldla

philologos wrote: »

Paul - for the last time. I find it frustrating that you've not even listened to what I've said.

marien said the following:

From my experience in the last 22 years in Irish churches (I've been to quite a few). I've noticed that most people in those churches are university educated. Marien's quote flies in the face of my experience. I've told you what it means pauldla, several times. I've told you that it means that most people who attend Irish churches are well educated from experience. To be honest, all I need to say that marien's argument is rubbish is my experience.

For marien's argument to be sound, she would need to show that there are less university educated people in churches than the average. I suspect she'd have a lot of difficulty in presenting that argument.

I think it is prejudiced and bigoted to claim that Christians are inferior to atheists. I never said that you were prejudiced, but I do believe that marien and Tim are certainly for presenting ad-hominem arguments without basis on the Christianity forum about Christians being inferior to non-believers.

It's not a "strawman" to say that I wasn't arguing that. You weren't very clear as to what your objection to my post was. You're still not being all that clear actually.

In other countries it's a mixed bag, see here.

I'm finished on this topic. It's not particularly fruitful in any meaningful way.

Yes, you have dismissed mariens argument as rubbish, but I am not satisfied with your grounds for dismissing her argument. To me, it seems like you've looked around you at Mass, decided that the people there are well-educated (on what grounds, I do not know), extrapolated that to the entire population, and viola! another point dealt with.

Now that's all well and good, and you are certainly right to have an opinion on the matter. But to then go on and state that this claim is neither hollow (and it does ring when you knock it) nor debatable is arrogant, if you can forgive my bluntness. On this point, too, I take you to task.

From the link you provide, it seems that there is a relationship between religiosity and education, with religious practice decreasing the higher the level of education. However, these findings have been challenged, as other studies have suggested there may be little or even no correlation, and the topic is (here it comes) much-debated. Who'd a thunk it?

Some further reading on the topic.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=402381

There are other problems with your argument too, but we'll let those pass for the moment.

To test the veracity of your claim, I thought it might be useful ask that, if the claim was right, and if the vast majority of Irish people claim to be Christian (and judging from the last census, they do), would it not then follow that the majority, or a near-majority, of people in Ireland are well-educated? Is this indeed the case, in your opinion, or has my logic slipped again?

Alas, I shall never know. I encourage you to rejoin the fray.

philologos

I'm not going to go around and around in circles. I've answered your question multiple times.

I don't think there's any fruit in this argument. If you have any objections to the Christian gospel itself, I'm more than happy to address them. This is 'willy waving' as PDN described. I honestly don't care what prejudices people have about Christians, what I do care about is that the Gospel is going out, and that more and more people aren't ashamed about it.

It seems that you've ignored multiple sections in the link I provided, but alas as the philosopher said, it's vanity. I'd rather debate something of substance.

marienbad

marienbad wrote: »

The point I am making is that the more educated a society becomes the less religious it becomes , and Ireland is a great example.

Have I proof of this ? not really no but I am sure it is out there.

I don't think though that anyone would deny that the Ireland of the 50's was more religious than the Ireland of the 70's and this trend was obvious long before the sex abuse issues etc.

To me the difference was education and not intelligence .

Philogos - the above is the point I am making, before dismissing it as rubbish at least try and answer it.

Please note I am saying - the more educated a society and not the more intelligent.