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Child Item

Abortion

tomtherobot

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

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eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you let it happen again? Just out curiosity? if it wasn't a medical emergency etc?

Its hard to say. If I was pregnant with a baby that was a result of rape then probably yes, if the baby was destined to die after birth then probably yes.

My life is on an even keel now so an unplanned pregnancy wouldn't be a disaster. But if it changed and we were back were we were a few years ago then yeah I might. I don't know. I was very depressed and suicidal after it. I think that would be what would be the thing that would stop me. I don't want to go back to those dark days again.

Sponge25

Mickeroo wrote: »

Pardon?

Maybe they can get pregnant once responsibly by accident but not 3-4-5 times! That's negligence:)

OldNotWIse

GROUP HUG EVERYONE!!! IT'S NEARLY PAYDAY!!!

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Its hard to say. If I was pregnant with a baby that was a result of rape then probably yes, if the baby was destined to die after birth then probably yes.

My life is on an even keel now so an unplanned pregnancy wouldn't be a disaster. But if it changed and we were back were we were a few years ago then yeah I might. I don't know. I was very depressed and suicidal after it. I think that would be what would be the thing that would stop me. I don't want to go back to those dark days again.

If you were raped or the baby was gonna be sick or make you very sick I would understand (I hope that never happens)

I hope ya don't ever feel suicidal again, if ya ever do and need someone to talk too PM. I felt like that before too!:)

Out of curiosity? How old are you? Aprox!

charlietheminxx

Sponge25 wrote: »

No they should be responsible. People who have multiple pregnancies who don't want a baby are an excuse for a human being. Me and my ex were together for 6 years, we didn't want a baby and she never got pregnant once, been with my gf now for a year and she hasn't got pregnant. I'm the most fertile man in Ireland (haha) so why can't everyone else be resposible like me?

Because nothing is foolproof. Nothing. If you have never gotten anyone pregnant, what makes you think you're that fertile?

As well as anything else, since again, you have never gotten anyone pregnant - you seem very sure of how they would react. Until you're in that situation, you cannot be 100% sure.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you let it happen again? Just out curiosity? if it wasn't a medical emergency etc?

Do you not think you're being a bit personal by continuously pushing EvilTwin? "Let it happen" implies carelessness. From what she has said so far, she's not coming across as feckless.

LeeHoffmann

In the bulletpoints midway down the page.

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

Zulu

Millicent wrote: »

There's a poster on Boards who was adopted who has said a few times ..

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

If you were raped or the baby was gonna be sick or make you very sick I would understand (I hope that never happens)

I hope ya don't ever feel suicidal again, if ya ever do and need someone to talk too PM. I felt like that before too!:)

Out of curiosity? How old are you? Aprox!

Why does my age matter?

I'm 35, I was 31 when I had the abortion. My husband was 36.

Sponge25

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Because nothing is foolproof. Nothing. If you have never gotten anyone pregnant, what makes you think you're that fertile?

As well as anything else, since again, you have never gotten anyone pregnant - you seem very sure of how they would react. Until you're in that situation, you cannot be 100% sure.

Do you not think you're being a bit personal by continuously pushing EvilTwin? "Let it happen" implies carelessness. From what she has said so far, she's not coming across as feckless.

I'm not pushing Eviltwin, she's a grown woman if she doesn't want to talk to me, one comment and we won't talk. We're just talking i'm curious about why people have abortions and I assume she has some curiosity about people who consider it disgraceful!

Millicent

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

I'm on my phone so sorry. Will later if no one else has.

Mickeroo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

But seriously, what % of abortions are carried out because of failed contraception?? Does the term "scapegoat" mean anything here??

Buggered if i know

I just thought Sponge's post seemed to suggest they thought there was no way people could become pregnant if they are using contraception. I would imagine most unplanned pregnancies are a result of not using or mis-using contraception of course.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Maybe they can get pregnant once responsibly by accident but not 3-4-5 times! That's negligence:)

Ah right, now i get you. But my question was who are these people that have 3,4 or 5 unplanned pregnancies? I would think the overwhelming majority of people who have had an abortion have only had one. Seems a bit silly to go around suggesting there's loads of people out there having multiple abortions.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Why does my age matter?

I'm 35, I was 31 when I had the abortion. My husband was 36.

It doesn't matter, was just curious about how early girls have abortions!

A girl I know was barely 18!

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Its not irrelevant. I already stated that she did so because she simply did not want it. By her own admission, it would interfere with her party lifestyle.

You keep saying, "oh so she had an abortion and now you dont want to talk to her" as if stating what I have already said over and over is going to achieve something. Yes I do not want to be in her company because she had an abortion. I dont know why you keep asking me this?

I'm just confused. You say she didn't tell you so if you found out how can you know her reasons. I think the reasons why people do things is as important as the act itself. Its your call either way.

Millicent

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

Well I'm very sorry you feel sorry for me. I'm more concerned about people who have been born that those who haven't. I must be a tyrant. :rolleyes:

Mickeroo

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

He's not saying they'd prefer to be dead, he's saying it wouldn't make a difference to them because they'd never have existed as a fully functioning human being in the first place.

Dyr

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

LeeHoffmann

Sponge25

Mickeroo wrote: »

Buggered if i know I just thought Sponge's post seemed to suggest they thought there was no way people could become pregnant if they are using contraception. I would imagine most unplanned pregnancies are a result of not using or mis-using contraception of course.

Ah right, now i get you. But my question was who are these people that have 3,4 or 5 unplanned pregnancies? I would think the overwhelming majority of people who have had an abortion have only had one. Seems a bit silly to go around suggesting there's loads of people out there having multiple abortions.

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

charlietheminxx

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

Here you go:

The law allows the adoption of orphans and children born outside marriage (including, in certain circumstances, children whose natural parents subsequently marry each other). In exceptional cases, the High Court can authorise the adoption of children whose parents have failed in their duty of care towards them (this can include children born within marriage).

Gurgle

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

As others have said, there´s no foolproof method apart from celibacy.

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

Sponge25

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

As others have said, there´s no foolproof method apart from celibacy. So, is somebody who takes that risk an excuse for a human being, in your opinion?

It depends, having unprotected sex with some whore ya met two hours ago in a nightclub is an excuse of a human being.

Having protected sex with a girl you've loved and been with for five years is a 'risk' to some degree but I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

As I said, I don't want a baby yet but if my gf got pregnant we both would be very happy!

OldNotWIse

Bambi wrote: »

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

Hows that crystal ball?

I'd love to have a baby, but society makes it difficult for me (ironic really). So if someone told me I could gestate, give birth to and be parent of an unwanted baby I would jump at the chance.

Sponge25

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Here you go:

This suggest the high court can force adoptions for extremely poor parents (Poor in the sense of having bad parenting skills, not financially) not that an married couple can adopt a child away? or is it defacto illegal!?

Millicent

Gurgle wrote: »

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

Who are these people are how do you know why they have abortions? Most of the staff in abortion clinics have no idea why women are going into them, you don't get asked for a reason.

I did read something from BFPA a few years ago that said their understanding was that most multiple abortions in women over 18 were women in the sex industry or those heavily using drugs. Probably there is an element of some women using it for contraception but in the UK if you were presenting to your GP on a regular basis looking for a referral I'm sure questions would be asked.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm just confused. You say she didn't tell you so if you found out how can you know her reasons. I think the reasons why people do things is as important as the act itself. Its your call either way.

Er...because she told someone else (who happened to be my best (and slightly less judgemental) best friend)

Mickeroo

Sponge25 wrote: »

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

Yes I've no doubt they exist but using the tiny tiny tiny minority to support your argument is a little facetious imo.

Sponge25

Millicent wrote: »

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

Can people with a vesectomy ejaculate? Considering semenily fluid is produced in the abdomen and NOT the testes!?

LeeHoffmann

The law allows the adoption of orphans and children born outside marriage (including, in certain circumstances, children whose natural parents subsequently marry each other). In exceptional cases, the High Court can authorise the adoption of children whose parents have failed in their duty of care towards them (this can include children born within marriage).

Thank you for the quote! That doesn´t say you can´t give the baby up for adoption. It says- in exceptional circumstances. I can´t imagine any court would force a couple to keep a baby they both said they didn´t want. Wouldn´t the option of giving the child up for fostering still be available?

I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

If they wouldn´t keep the baby though? nice language about the ´whore´ btw

Gurgle

Bambi wrote: »

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.