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Child Item

The Gardai - Accomplishments to date

Musiconomist

I had a small argument with a co-worker recently over the guards.

I accused them of being morally corrupt, she strongly disagreed. I asked her to tell me one thing that they had done recently that you could say fair play to. I kind of feel like there is a culture of apathy in the guards that negatively impacts all other parts of society.

My argument went something like this:

They havent arrested most of the bankers/politicians who have acted improperly or corruptly
They dont overly mind baton-charging protesters
They took a long time to respond to a call when our house was broken in, and then didnt take prints. (The "There's very little chance of catching him." attitude)
A girl was attacked recently at my local train station (the 3rd in 4 years), yet they havent notified the community or made requests for information. This one really annoyed me, as I thought it would be common sense to do that, and could be preventative.
That guard who got a slap on the wrist for making the rape joke. I hate that "closed ranks" mentality
The whole Catholic church thing

I also suggested that if they were not satisfied with the judicial system, it would make sense (and be a bold statement) if the guards were to march for judicial reform.

Her argument was:

They dont get adequate support from successive weak governments (fair enough, I suppose)
They dont get the respect of the people
They do a dangerous job
Why should they put up posters when someone has been attacked? They dont do that in other countries.
Her dad is a guard
They work irregular hours and bank holidays

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[Deleted User]

A Garda bashing thread?
On Boards?
WTF?

Musiconomist

cursai wrote: »

The most pathetic thing about this thread is my comment and the fact that I was so annoyed I felt I had to post something.

This might seem pathetic or funny to you, but it's quite serious to me.

The girl who was attacked was 14/15, so I've been told, near my train station at about 10-11pm, at the bottom of my girlfriends road. I know where because I walked past the police tape the next morning.

That is why it angers me to think that the guards could be doing more. It is ordinary people who pay the price, in the end.

Musiconomist

Dean0088 wrote: »

Get assaulted. Verbally abused. Deal with complete scumbags. See the justice system piss all over their work. Enter the homes of dead people on the request of family/friends. See bodies twisted up in a crash. Break news to families. Conduct boring stops and deal with stupid calls wasting their time. Arrest the same little scumbag over and over. Be spat on.

This is around 1% of the stuff the gardái deal with in a single shift at times. While you're enjoying your shift in a cosy office.

I notice the people who bash the gardaí are normally softies. If you just came from a call where bodies were torn up in a crash could you grit your teeth and deal with a little nuisance scumbag or go around 'aiming to please' 100% of the time? Especially on that pathetic wage they get? No I imagine you'd go whimper and hand in your notice the next day.

Show some more respect to the people who genuinely put themselves into serious danger with little more than a metal stick.

I agree with the majority of the points you've raised. It is a hard and mostly thankless job. And to clarify, I am 100% a softie, with an office job. And I would never be a guard. But that's why I never applied to be a guard, passed the entry exams or went through the training. Every guard chose to be a guard, and knew what the job would entail. If any dont like it, they are free to change their minds.

In agreeing with most of your points, I cant say that they do a great job though. I've said already what I find wrong with their attitude and methods.

kevmy85

When was the last time the Gardaí baton charged protesters? The May Day things about 8 yrs ago IIRC. And the Garda who was the main culprit there was brought to court.

How many Gardaí were killed/seriously injured on duty since? At least two killed (possibly more) and many more stabbed/shot at/assualted.

And yet people remember/give out to Gardaí for baton charging people and forget how much they put themselves on the line for the ordinary people. Sure there are bad ones, sure there are excellent ones and most of them are probably average like most professions.

Valetta

The Gardai acomplish hundres and thousands of things every month/year.

You just don't get to hear about them. Doesn't mean they dont happen.

You have given two examples of your personal experiences that were negative.

How can you possibly draw any conclusions from those?

Fukuyama

Musiconomist wrote: »

I agree with the majority of the points you've raised. It is a hard and mostly thankless job. And to clarify, I am 100% a softie, with an office job. And I would never be a guard. But that's why I never applied to be a guard, passed the entry exams or went through the training. Every guard chose to be a guard, and knew what the job would entail. If any dont like it, they are free to change their minds.

In agreeing with most of your points, I cant say that they do a great job though. I've said already what I find wrong with their attitude and methods.

My main point is that gardaí do the toughest work in Ireland. Statistics say they'll die almost 10 years before their time due to mental issues related to their work.

You don't get into the gardaí if you're a big robot who feels nothing. Part of the criteria is being able to deal with people. **** they enter homes to take children away from **** parents and inform people their son is wrapped around a tree. They're people.

Recently an article came out (was on AH - not arsed to find a link) about a garda who quit the force. He mentioned he'd often arrive for duty without so much as a patrol car available to use. Or not being allowed to pursue a case as there wasn't the overtime available.

Police in no country turn up with the superman cape flying from their backs.

You've said you couldn't be a guard. Fair enough. But critisising them in the way you do is reminiscent of a fat fúcker sitting on a bar stool critisising Rooney.

I'm thinking of applying when I'm finished my degree. And honestly the biggest factor that puts me off is the level of garda bashing I'd have to hear while dragging myself out of bed to go to work and deal with horrible, horrible incidents.

seamus

Musiconomist wrote: »

I cant say that they do a great job though.

Considering that you don't really understand what it is the Gardai do, I'm not really surprised that they don't live up to your unrealistic expectations.

Musiconomist

Valetta wrote: »

The Gardai acomplish hundres and thousands of things every month/year.

You just don't get to hear about them. Doesn't mean they dont happen.

You have given two examples of your personal experiences that were negative.

How can you possibly draw any conclusions from those?

Actually, those were just the most obvious two that came to mind. There are others. I do know that the guards do a lot, but in my opinion, there are things that could be improved.

As for drawing conclusions from my own experiences, how could I draw conclusions from anything else?

Fukuyama

kevmy85 wrote: »

When was the last time the Gardaí baton charged protesters? The May Day things about 8 yrs ago IIRC. And the Garda who was the main culprit there was brought to court.

How many Gardaí were killed/seriously injured on duty since? At least two killed (possibly more) and many more stabbed/shot at/assualted.

And yet people remember/give out to Gardaí for baton charging people and forget how much they put themselves on the line for the ordinary people. Sure there are bad ones, sure there are excellent ones and most of them are probably average like most professions.

The last baton charge I recall (ha - compared to the London Met or any other riot squad, the gardaí are softies) was outside the department of Finance against students and Eirigi two years ago. They were occupying a government department and blocking the street in an unauthorized 'split' protest from the main student march.

The gardaí allowed it to continue for around 40 minutes. They then dragged people from the department. Made numerous announcements for the crowed to move. This was while unprotected gardái in normal uniform were being pelted with bottles and stones from Eirigi at the rear of the crowed.

The riot squad then battoned sitting protesters when they failed to move. Looked harsh but meh... over an hour is more than enough time to comply with reasonable orders from the gardaí as it was now a public order situation where gardaí were being assaulted.

People whinge over anything.

mattjack

a fat guy wrote: »

Why did she imply that they deserve respect?

I want respect because I've got a degree, but that just isn't happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0

Hows that ?

TheVoodoo

Tarring every single guard with the same brush is a bit much. Sure there are jobs-worths, same as every single profession. It's not the random guard on the beats fault the "corrupt politicians" haven't been arrested. Those things take time, months maybe years to compile evidence books. No point in saying 'sure look at the economy, thats the evidence you need'. It simply doesn't work like that. Also it's not csi. The chances of finding a usable print amongst thousands of others are slim. I hate Garda bashing threads, especially when the actual basing is awfully poorly constructed without actual plausible basis.

seamus

Musiconomist wrote: »

As for drawing conclusions from my own experiences, how could I draw conclusions from anything else?

Typically when people want to draw conclusions from outside of their own experience, they go and do some research. Simple things like facts and figures are a good place to start.

humbert

I wonder how many of the people defending the gardai have been the victim of a crime and needed them.

I had a reasonably positive attitude to them until I needed them and since that time I find it difficult not to regard them with contempt.

I have to accept it's bad to judge a whole organisation based on one personal experience but it's consistent with reports from other people.

I think things are improving as there seems to be at least a growing accountability for misconduct.

MagicSean

Musiconomist wrote: »

I had a small argument with a co-worker recently over the guards.

I accused them of being morally corrupt, she strongly disagreed. I asked her to tell me one thing that they had done recently that you could say fair play to. I kind of feel like there is a culture of apathy in the guards that negatively impacts all other parts of society.

My argument went something like this:
They havent arrested most of the bankers/politicians who have acted improperly or corruptly

They dont overly mind baton-charging protesters

They took a long time to respond to a call when our house was broken in, and then didnt take prints. (The "There's very little chance of catching him." attitude)

A girl was attacked recently at my local train station (the 3rd in 4 years), yet they havent notified the community or made requests for information. This one really annoyed me, as I thought it would be common sense to do that, and could be preventative.

That guard who got a slap on the wrist for making the rape joke. I hate that "closed ranks" mentality

The whole Catholic church thing

I also suggested that if they were not satisfied with the judicial system, it would make sense (and be a bold statement) if the guards were to march for judicial reform.

Just go to a district court and you can see what they do. If you want to see the more serious stuff then go to the CCJ or circuit court sitting around the country. That's just crime stuff. There's a lot more involved in the job. For example, have a look at road death figures for the past decade. See that decline? That didn't happen by accident you know. See all those dead peoples names? Who do you think broke that news to their families?

And Gardaí are not able to take industrial action, it's illegal. I suggest if you'd like some change you campaign for it and stop moaning on the internet.

Musiconomist

Dean0088 wrote: »

My main point is that gardaí do the toughest work in Ireland. Statistics say they'll die almost 10 years before their time due to mental issues related to their work.

You don't get into the gardaí if you're a big robot who feels nothing. Part of the criteria is being able to deal with people. **** they enter homes to take children away from **** parents and inform people their son is wrapped around a tree. They're people.

Recently an article came out (was on AH - not arsed to find a link) about a garda who quit the force. He mentioned he'd often arrive for duty without so much as a patrol car available to use. Or not being allowed to pursue a case as there wasn't the overtime available.

Police in no country turn up with the superman cape flying from their backs.

You've said you couldn't be a guard. Fair enough. But critisising them in the way you do is reminiscent of a fat fúcker sitting on a bar stool critisising Rooney.

I'm thinking of applying when I'm finished my degree. And honestly the biggest factor that puts me off is the level of garda bashing I'd have to hear while dragging myself out of bed to go to work and deal with horrible, horrible incidents.

Dont get me started on Rooney.

I do feel for the honest guards. If it was me, I would like to feel like I'm making a difference. From what I can see though, they simply arent doing, or maybe arent being allowed to do, their jobs.

No one can tell me that more priests, bishops, high ranking guards, bankers and politicians shouldnt have been arrested over the last 50 years. The bishop's admittal this week that he knowingly moved an offender from one diocese to another should have meant his immediate arrest. Why is this acceptable?

CreepingDeath

Musiconomist wrote: »

Exactly. Not a politician yet.

A law has to be broken first.
Please tell me which law a politician has broken specifically?
Fianna Fail were incompetent at managing the economy and made a serious judgement call on the bank guarantee but they were legally elected and given the power to make that call.
They didn't break a law.
Maybe the financial regulator could've been punished for rubber stamping false declarations from the banks, but what politician has broken a law?
You don't understand the situation.

Musiconomist wrote: »

I assume that's a joke. Have you seen the picture of the guard batoning a protester holding up his fingers in a piece sign?

Gardai have the right to use force to remove people who are causing an obstruction/disruption to the community if necessary.
If they protestors organized a legal march through the city centre there wouldn't be a problem, it happens all the time without incident.

Musiconomist wrote: »

You dont know all burglars use gloves.

And not all bank robbers wear masks/disguises, but we all know the majority do. It's common sense.

Musiconomist wrote: »

You've missed the point. How would someone know to come forward? Word of mouth, if at all! There's not 3 million people glued to crimeline. Also, gathering evidence and possibly preventing crime isnt the guards job?

How do you know that they didn't request information?
On serious incidents they post notices at the scene of the crime and the Gardai ask people if they were around that location at the time.

Musiconomist wrote: »

How many guards were aware of abuse claims, and didnt act?

You tell me?
The gardai have enough work to do with reported crimes, they're not going to go on speculation unless someone makes a report/complaint.

Musiconomist wrote: »

How many priests/bishops failed to report abuse claims and were never punished? Just this week, one admitted moving an abuser between dioceses.

You need to prove they had knowledge of it.
Also, they could argue that they heard it under the seal of confession and were not able to disclose it.

Musiconomist wrote: »

My point is that they dont even do that part. Get the criminals into the courtrooms. At that point, their job is done.

No... you still don't understand.
Their job is not to get the criminals to the courtrooms.
You need to read up on the Irish justice system.

Their job is to obtain evidence and file charges to the DPP.
The director of public prosecutions makes a decision whether or not the Guards have enough evidence and have followed the proper procedures (warrants etc), to bring the alleged criminal to court.... not the guards.

MagicSean

a fat guy wrote: »

Why did she imply that they deserve respect?

I want respect because I've got a degree, but that just isn't happening.

Probably because they put themselves in these situations so you can be a bit safer

http://www.herald.ie/news/five-gardai-in-hospital-after-cars-rammed-by-stolen-vehicles-2921999.html

MagicSean

Musiconomist wrote: »

How many guards were aware of abuse claims, and didnt act? How many priests/bishops failed to report abuse claims and were never punished? Just this week, one admitted moving an abuser between dioceses.

How many parents were aware of the claims and did not act? And even sent the kids back to their abuser. The fact is that the church had such a hold over the country that nobody did anything. It's a little strange to be blaming the Gardaí alone. The whole country should take some of that blame.

Musiconomist wrote: »

My point is that they dont even do that part. Get the criminals into the courtrooms. At that point, their job is done. If the judge makes a bad decision, at least it's not the guards fault.

The Gardaí also have to prosecute the case as well.

granturismo

a fat guy wrote: »

Why did she imply that they deserve respect?

I want respect because I've got a degree, but that just isn't happening.

Having to call to someones door and tell them that their son has died in a car accident is reason enough to deserve respect.

If the scumbags in this country respected the guards there would be a lot less problems.

Valetta

Musiconomist wrote: »

Dont get me started on Rooney.

I do feel for the honest guards. If it was me, I would like to feel like I'm making a difference. From what I can see though, they simply arent doing, or maybe arent being allowed to do, their jobs.

No one can tell me that more priests, bishops, high ranking guards, bankers and politicians shouldnt have been arrested over the last 50 years. The bishop's admittal this week that he knowingly moved an offender from one diocese to another should have meant his immediate arrest. Why is this acceptable?

This is my point.

You can't see all that the guards do, so therefore shouldn't be drawing conclusions.

holystungun9

granturismo wrote: »

Having to call to someones door and tell them that their son has died in a car accident is reason enough to deserve respect.

If the scumbags in this country respected the guards there would be a lost less problems.

Should they respect or fear the guards or maybe both? It will be a long time before they respect them that's for sure. I feel they should fear them but I'm not sure how this can come to be. Or fear the law if not the garda force.

Theta

They havent arrested most of the bankers/politicians who have acted improperly or corruptly

This is a classic one.....lock them all up.
If you can name the crime they have committed and provide hard evidence im sure they would have no problem arresting them as it would look great for the stats.

As much as they are the dregs of society and we all hate them all they did was make money without breaking any laws or regulations that existed at the time.

MagicSean

holystungun9 wrote: »

Should they respect or fear the guards or maybe both? It will be a long time before they respect them that's for sure. I feel they should fear them but I'm not sure how this can come to be. Or fear the law if not the garda force.

They often don't even respect their own mothers.

JRant

TheVoodoo wrote: »

Tarring every single guard with the same brush is a bit much. Sure there are jobs-worths, same as every single profession. It's not the random guard on the beats fault the "corrupt politicians" haven't been arrested. Those things take time, months maybe years to compile evidence books. No point in saying 'sure look at the economy, thats the evidence you need'. It simply doesn't work like that. Also it's not csi. The chances of finding a usable print amongst thousands of others are slim. I hate Garda bashing threads, especially when the actual basing is awfully poorly constructed without actual plausible basis.

IMO ones preception of ná gadaí is completely dependent on where you grew up. Having grown up in a very 'rough' area, I seen firsthand the good and bad of the organisation, unfortunately it's more bad then good.
For example, despite never being in trouble with them I was repeatedly stopped and searched, pulled over on the way home from work and generally being treated like a piece of **** by them because I happened to live in a certain area. The attitude of every single one of them was reprehensible and is the main reason why I feel they are not respected at all in working class areas.
However having moved to a more middleclass area the difference in how garda deal with people is completely at odds with this, most are polite, curtious and generally will be of as much help as is possible.
So I can completely understand both points of view.
What I don't want to keep hearing is "oh, it's a difficult job, pays crap, blah blah". This is a non runner for two good reasons. They are fully aware of what they sign up for and to suggest otherwise does the individual involved a huge disservice. The pay is plenty good, as it is not only the salary that must be taken into account but also the pension recieved plus if there not happy with it they can leave.

Musiconomist

CreepingDeath wrote: »

A law has to be broken first.
Please tell me which law a politician has broken specifically?
Fianna Fail were incompetent at managing the economy and made a serious judgement call on the bank guarantee but they were legally elected and given the power to make that call.
They didn't break a law.
Maybe the financial regulator could've been punished for rubber stamping false declarations from the banks, but what politician has broken a law?
You don't understand the situation. .

Bertie Ahern
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0323/breaking1.html

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Gardai have the right to use force to remove people who are causing an obstruction/disruption to the community if necessary.

Welcome to 1984

CreepingDeath wrote: »

And not all bank robbers wear masks/disguises, but we all know the majority do. It's common sense..

Common sense? Most burglaries are carried out by drug addicts. Addicts dont fully understand the implications of their actions, as their frontal lobes are impaired due to substance addiction. Would they be more or less likely to think ahead and bring gloves?
There I just plucked some common sense out of thin air too.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

How do you know that they didn't request information?
On serious incidents they post notices at the scene of the crime and the Gardai ask people if they were around that location at the time..

So a rape isnt serious anymore? Because there were no notices around the crime scene or train station. I've looked. If I had seen one, I wouldnt have posted.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

You tell me?
The gardai have enough work to do with reported crimes, they're not going to go on speculation unless someone makes a report/complaint..

Read the Murphy report.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

You need to prove they had knowledge of it.
Also, they could argue that they heard it under the seal of confession and were not able to disclose it..

Read the Murphy report. Even with this excuse, it doesnt justify moving a priest from one diocese to another.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

No... you still don't understand.
Their job is not to get the criminals to the courtrooms.
You need to read up on the Irish justice system..
Their job is to obtain evidence and file charges to the DPP.
The director of public prosecutions makes a decision whether or not the Guards have enough evidence and have followed the proper procedures (warrants etc), to bring the alleged criminal to court.... not the guards.

Ok, so they're either not following procedures or are not getting sufficient evidence for the DPP to bring these people to court.

Musiconomist

MagicSean wrote: »

How many parents were aware of the claims and did not act? And even sent the kids back to their abuser. The fact is that the church had such a hold over the country that nobody did anything. It's a little strange to be blaming the Gardaí alone. The whole country should take some of that blame.

The keepers of our law shouldnt be held accountable for allowing abuse which they were aware of to continue? The gardai are there to make the rightdecisions, not join in with popular opinion. If they were ruled by popular opinion, child abusers would be hung.

I think I've stopped taking you seriously.

flas

out of the 3 guards i know,only one would have my respect as a guard,he has worked his way up through the ranks and is now what you would call an elite guard,the other two,well one just became a guard because in his own words its a job for life with a good pension and early retirement,the other fella is a complete numpty,he even puts up details of interactions he has had with people throughout his shift etc...he is an absolute idiot who thinks a uniform will make people give him respect. on the not well paid aspect,that doesnt add up either,they are all under the age ofc 34 and all have their own houses and cars,far from bangers by the way!two of them have new golfs,while the other one has a new passat,the only guards ij know who are in anyway a bit screwed financially are so because they bought a few houses to rent out during the boom!i would like to see actually how many landlords in this country are guards!

they do a tough job but its what they signed up for!some are good,some not so good,and it will always be the not so good ones people remember!

MagicSean

Musiconomist wrote: »

The keepers of our law shouldnt be held accountable for allowing abuse which they were aware of to continue? The gardai are there to make the rightdecisions, not join in with popular opinion. If they were ruled by popular opinion, child abusers would be hung.

I think I've stopped taking you seriously.

Again you show your ignorance. While the investigation and prosecution of crime falls to the Gardaí, the decision to prosecute falls to the DPPs office, an office influenced by politics.

And don't worry, I stopped taking you seriously on the first page.

JRant

Theta wrote: »

They havent arrested most of the bankers/politicians who have acted improperly or corruptly

This is a classic one.....lock them all up.
If you can name the crime they have committed and provide hard evidence im sure they would have no problem arresting them as it would look great for the stats.

As much as they are the dregs of society and we all hate them all they did was make money without breaking any laws or regulations that existed at the time.

My opinion would be that it's the lack of any type of investigation that irks most people. I mean there's plenty of scope within the legislation for the fraud squad or revenue commissioner to get involved. Falsifying company accounts and fiddling expenses have lead to plenty of joe soap's being brought before the 'man'.
We also have the C.A.B. who as far as I can tell have powers that could be used against some individuals involved.
However Garda HQ are failing to direct these vechiles available to them in a more proactive manner.

cursai

When I was young I had a sick budgie. Its head was falling off. I went to the vet to get it fixed. The vet couldn't fix its loose head. I couldn't understand why not.
All vets are budgie killers.