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Abortion

tomtherobot

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

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charlietheminxx

Because there aren't enough abortions threads right now....

inforfun

Maybe they need the counseling for the reason of the abortion?

AnonoBoy

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

Why can't we do both? Do counselling services occupy beds in hospitals? Nope.

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

Tell you what, from now on everyone who presents at A&E will be assessed as to whether it was their own fault or a genuine accident. Heart attack? Tough ****, you're fat, it's your fault, go home.
Overdose? Haha, you're joking right, get out of my hospital.

Always puzzles me how so many people claim to oppose abortion on the basis of life, yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.

mrbango

OP are you against abortions even in the extreme cases we have seen in the national news in the past? And as pointed out the counselling provided by the hse may be for ladies who have had abortions but maybe/probably is for women who have gone through more than the abortion.

davet82

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

not yet anyways...

:rolleyes:

ballsymchugh

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

needs counselling though.

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i (.......)right now.....

Well, one of the reasons they may need counselling is because of your kind of attitude.

AnonoBoy

davet82 wrote: »

not yet anyways...

:rolleyes:

Is he planning a military coup? :eek:

[Deleted User]

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

He couldn't even speak for Zig & Zag.

dodderangler

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

Nodin

dodderangler wrote: »

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

....but only in the first five weeks, otherwise its threadacide.

Alactric

dodderangler wrote: »

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

We have a winner. Move on, nothin' to see here folks.

Dravokivich

tomtherobot wrote: »

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one?

Because there are a lot of factors that can contribute to making it a stressful time for those involved. One of which would be the opinion that it is constantly portrayed through advertisements damning those who have underwent abortions. Your commentary in your OP is also a smack in the face to'em.

Most people who are pro-choice and who may consider using services such as abortion don't consider it as "Discarding an inanimate object" as you've made it out to sound. There are issues such as rape / illness / whatever I'm not in a position to think of right now that would justify terminating a pregnancy. Currently we ship'em off elsewhere to deal with it. The lack of support avail here in itself is down right shameful. Counselling is the least of what's required. The social stigma needs a swift kick in the bollox.

tomtherobot

inforfun wrote: »

Maybe they need the counseling for the reason of the abortion?

seamus wrote: »

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

mrbango wrote: »

maybe/probably is for women who have gone through more than the abortion.

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?

Nodin wrote: »

Well, one of the reasons they may need counselling is because of your kind of attitude.

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

Was going to merge it into a similar thread but I can't find it.

*whistles*

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

........

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

(my bold)

Like I said, your attitude is part of the problem.

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

People who provide living donations of organs such as kidneys often undergo a great deal of counselling and other such assistance to help them with the stress and emotional trauma of the process.
Many women require post-natal counselling to assist them in getting over the child birth process.
Surely this means that we must acknowledge that childbirth and living donations are a "problem".

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?

It wouldn't - for those people. For everyone else, it might.

You seem to be suggesting that everyone who gets an abortion or who supports abortion thinks nothing of it. You're wrong.

Just because a procedure may include mental or emotional trauma, doesn't mean it's inherently wrong or inadvisable.

Professey Chin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands.I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Or heres a better idea. Stay the fuck out of other peoples business and let them to their own choices instead of claiming propaganda when youre full of it yourself.

davet82

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Is he planning a military coup? :eek:

yes he is :pac:

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Post abortion counselling - in fact any kind of counselling - can actually save us money long term. Better to deal with the problem in the short term than have a woman or man who is affected by it end up needing serious care in the future at the states expense

I can only speak for myself - I had counselling after an abortion but in the USA. I felt a mix of things, sadness, guilt, I lost friends over it and that was an issue, I was unsure if I had made the right decision...I was just confused really and it helped me a great deal. I started the counselling about 18 months after the abortion and at that stage I was in a very bad place, I was suicidal and had just had a breakdown. I managed to get the help I needed thanks to a wonderful husband and a good friend and I'm now doing great. If I hadn't got it who knows where I would have ended up.

Fair enough if you are pro life, I have nothing against anyone who is, but don't make things harder for people who are suffering when they need help the most.

tomtherobot

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most people who are pro-choice and who may consider using services such as abortion don't consider it as "Discarding an inanimate object" as you've made it out to sound. There are issues such as rape / illness / whatever I'm not in a position to think of right now that would justify terminating a pregnancy. Currently we ship'em off elsewhere to deal with it. The lack of support avail here in itself is down right shameful. Counselling is the least of what's required. The social stigma needs a swift kick in the bollox.

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

LizT

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

Please don't be so pedantic. Pro choice is widely acknowledged and recognised as the term used for those in favour of a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. It's not about making abortion 'sound ok', it's the term used. Don't make it into an issue when it's not.

humanji

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

And if you don't take it that the unborn child is alive?

tomtherobot

seamus wrote: »

People who provide living donations of organs such as kidneys often undergo a great deal of counselling and other such assistance to help them with the stress and emotional trauma of the process.
Many women require post-natal counselling to assist them in getting over the child birth process.
Surely this means that we must acknowledge that childbirth and living donations are a "problem".

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

LizT

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

I don't think many pro choice people would argue that abortion is a run of the mill procedure.

humanji

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

Who, in the name of Bono's left one, has every said abortion was a run of the mill procedure?

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure

I've no idea where you got that impression.

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

............
I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

You don't know the argument for abortion in the case of rape? Really?

tomtherobot

LizT wrote: »

I don't think many pro choice people would argue that abortion is a run of the mill procedure.

humanji wrote: »

Who, in the name of Bono's left one, has every said abortion was a run of the mill procedure?

seamus wrote: »

I've no idea where you got that impression.

Ok so what is it then? Pro - abortionists say it's not a child? It's not a major organ? Sp what is it? Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?