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Casino to sue gamblers for winning...

davet82

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/casino-suing-gamblers-won-1m-thanks-unshuffled-card-152033700.html

They don't have a chance in hell in suing these guys, do they?

Over the course of the 41 consecutive winning hands that followed, they rinsed their hosts to the tune of $1,536,700 (£974,816).

Eventually, however, the culprit was discovered: a batch of cards from the supplier which had supposedly been pre-shuffled, but which had been sent to the casino in standard sequential order.

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Colmustard

I don't think they have a chance, who is to say the cards were shuffled, it is possible that they could be shuffled into sequential order.

Unlikely but still possible.

My name is URL

What sort of idiot was the dealer? That's who they should be suing if anyone

TeddyTedson

Winning!

davet82

they should counter sue the casino for withholding the money and for the tatics they used on restraining the gamblers during their 'investigation'

idk if its common practice in casinos when unusal or large amounts of money are won?

themadchef

LOL 41 hands and almost a million quid before they copped it?

One man refused food and water for 8 hours and physically restrained?

There will be people getting sued all right.

Casinos want to take your money, the risk is entirely yours. This was old fashionled luck and they should play it up to the media instead of making a shít storm. Bad publicity for them wont go down well.

I'd say they will tip up in the end, and do it with a smile with big fancy cheques. The gamblers gambled. Eint nuffin wrong with that

My name is URL

davet82 wrote: »

they should counter sue the casino for withholding the money and for the tatics they used on restraining the gamblers during their 'investigation'

idk if its common practice in casinos when unusal or large amounts of money are won?

It's common enough I reckon. It's not unheard of for casinos to flatly refuse to pay out on winnings even if they just suspect that something is amiss, and afaik there's not a hell of a lot that the punters can do about it either. Those places are a law unto themselves for a large part. I never really understood why people are willing to spend so much money to travel to these places just so they can lose even more of it.

themadchef

My name is URL wrote: »

What sort of idiot was the dealer? That's who they should be suing if anyone

What exactly could the dealer do about it?

Even the 6 security staff couldint figure out why the cards were coming in the order they were coming.

THe dealers are very well trained to deal with most situations that arise, clearly this was a very unusual one. Management would have had issues if it were to call time on the game. To call stop on a table that is a "winning" would have huge fall backs for a casino, especially if they didint know why it was winning in the first place.

My name is URL

themadchef wrote: »

What exactly could the dealer do about it?

Even the 6 security staff couldint figure out why the cards were coming in the order they were coming.

THe dealers are very well trained to deal with most situations that arise, clearly this was a very unusual one. Management would have had issues if it were to call time on the game. To call stop on a table that is a "winning" would have huge fall backs for a casino, especially if they didint know why it was winning in the first place.

If the dealer was that well trained then they should have copped on to the problem before the punters did. The dealer is only one cog in it too.. there would also be a floor person overlooking them, and a pit-boss overlooking the floor persons. They could have easily halted the game had they copped on to what was happening, and it would have caused a lot less problems for all involved than the road they chose to go down instead.. falsely imprisoning people etc.

kincsem

Two possible outcomes imo
1 pay out winnings
2 lose gambling licence

Card shuffling machines should be used before the deck is put in play.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So... will the gamblers be refuded their initial stakes? Seeins as they were gambling legitamately and fairly, when they had no chance of winning?

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

Those places are a law unto themselves for a large part.

I take it you have never heard of a Gaming Commission. Casinos in the US are the exact opposite of a "law unto themselves" and are highly regulated and subject to huge Compliance requirements and regulations. They are also subject to regular and often unannounced inspection.

My name is URL wrote: »

falsely imprisoning people etc.

Casino security and Gaming commission staff have the authority to hold for investigation people suspected of cheating.

Colmustard

I ask myself if I went to the drink link and it start spluttering money out at me, what would I do.

Bank error in your favour collect 10000 euro, the fukcers would know who I was, I suppose I would have to pay it back. OR I could report the card stolen.

Gummy Panda

Gambling... a mugs game

B.A._Baracus

Its the classic thing ... casinos dont want people winning.

The casino lost a million because of THEIR blunder. But the casino isnt also saying how much money they made that week.

weemcd

My name is URL wrote: »

If the dealer was that well trained then they should have copped on to the problem before the punters did. The dealer is only one cog in it too.. there would also be a floor person overlooking them, and a pit-boss overlooking the floor persons. They could have easily halted the game had they copped on to what was happening, and it would have caused a lot less problems for all involved than the road they chose to go down instead.. falsely imprisoning people etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IzVA_Jlxks

that you Mr. DeNiro?

My name is URL

MadsL wrote: »

I take it you have never heard of a Gaming Commission. Casinos in the US are the exact opposite of a "law unto themselves" and are highly regulated and subject to huge Compliance requirements and regulations. They are also subject to regular and often unannounced inspection.

Casino security and Gaming commission staff have the authority to hold for investigation people suspected of cheating.

I wonder if they would have physically restrained a member of the public in their hotel room against their will, and without food or water for 8 hours during such an inspection.. considering that the people were not responsible for the casino failing to realise that a blunder had been made somewhere along the line.

There's a big difference between cheating and taking advantage of the lack of oversight by another party. Casinos take advantage of people all the time.. they have no right to punish or otherwise intimidate people for failing to properly exercise their own safeguards.

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

I wonder if they would have physically restrained a member of the public in their hotel room against their will, and without food or water for 8 hours during such an inspection.

It is the Gaming Commission staff who are often tipped off about cheats and do the detaining.

I would be careful about reading too much into the "against their will" part, most likely this would have been phrased as we need to you co-operate with our investigation, we could get the police involved, but how about we ask you to stay in this hotel room whilst we complete our investigation.

. considering that the people were not responsible for the casino failing to realise that a blunder had been made somewhere along the line.

The casino were not to know that until they investigated. What is more likely? Cheating or a bizarre screw up?

There's a big difference between cheating and taking advantage of the lack of oversight by another party.

You do realise the ethical slippery slope you just climbed to the top of there?

Casinos take advantage of people all the time..

Err, no they don't. They provide regulated games of chance for people to gamble on and no-one is coercing people to gamble. Last time I looked casinos were not scam artists.

they have no right to punish or otherwise intimidate people for failing to properly exercise their own safeguards.

An ATM gives you double cash because of a screw-up. Does that mean you have a right to keep the cash and the bank has no right to debit your account for the extra?

davet82

It is the Gaming Commission staff who are often tipped off about cheats and do the detaining.

I would be careful about reading too much into the "against their will" part, most likely this would have been phrased as we need to you co-operate with our investigation, we could get the police involved, but how about we ask you to stay in this hotel room whilst we complete our investigation.

Stay in your hotel room with no food or water though sounds 'against their will', i'd rather the police turn up especially when i've done nothing legally wrong.

The casino were not to know that until they investigated. What is more likely? Cheating or a bizarre screw up?

IDK what is more likely but point taken.

You do realise the ethical slippery slope you just climbed to the top of there?

Thats a fine line alright :pac:

Err, no they don't. They provide regulated games of chance for people to gamble on and no-one is coercing people to gamble. Last time I looked casinos were not scam artists.

Thats a fine line too. Casinos are well known for coercing people to gamble, my experince in vegas was the more i lost the more free drink i got.

An ATM gives you double cash because of a screw-up. Does that mean you have a right to keep the cash and the bank has no right to debit your account for the extra?

yes but the bank wouldnt try sue me!

I think it stinks, the house always wins and for once the little guy walks away with some cash because of their mistake and to take legal action is wrong imo. Not exactly the same thing but if i slipped on a wet supermarket floor and damaged it, should the supermarket sue me for their negligence?

Dude111

davet82 wrote:

They don't have a chance in hell in suing these guys, do they?

Well i suppose if they can PROVE THEY WERE CHEATING they might be able to yes....

racso1975

i dont think it's about cheating it's under this law that they plan on suing

they are relying on a law designed to protect gamblers from unscrupulous casinos. New Jersey law insists that odds for all games be fair, but the rule applies to the casinos as much as it does the punters. Given that the odds were stacked in favour of the punters, the casino is hoping to escape their huge bill.

CreepingDeath

FromLinkAbove wrote:

Security staff then turned to figuring out what they thought was "a sophisticated swindling and cheating scheme", a task they went about in a highly disturbing manner. One man from Brooklyn was woken in the middle of the night, physically restrained and kept in his room (without food or water) for eight hours while his belongings were searched.

Jaysus... the casino committed criminal offenses, illegal detention & assault.
I think there's definite counter-claims possible there!

Dravokivich

Ah Dave, too much sensationalism pal, don't forget this bit of the article:

The casino is suing the card supplier, as you might expect - but they are also suing the gamblers, claiming that they have no right to be paid.

I don't think it's right to punish the punters on this though.

Why is a casino ordering pre-shuffled cards? Any card game I played all decks in use get shuffled on the table before play.

davet82

Dravokivich wrote: »

Ah Dave, too much sensationalism pal

sensational is my middle name :cool:

MadsL

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Jaysus... the casino committed criminal offenses, illegal detention & assault.
I think there's definite counter-claims possible there!

I think you are reading a lot of quotes from these peoples lawyers who are looking for compensation.

What criminal offence did the casino commit? A casino has the right to detain you if they suspect cheating. Their house, their rules.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2010/Bills/S0500/12_R4.PDF

121. Authority of Gaming Licensee and Agents to Detain or Question
Persons; Immunity from Liability; Posted Notice Required.
a. Any licensee or its officers, employees or agents may question any
individual in the casino or simulcasting facility or elsewhere in the
establishment who is reasonably suspected of violating any of the
provisions of sections 113 through 116 of P.L.1977, c.110 (C.5:12-113
through 116), section 46 of P.L.1991, c.182 (C.5:12-113.1), section 118 of
P.L.1977, c.110 (C.5:12-118), section 119 of P.L.1977, c.110 (C.5:12-119)
or R.S.33:1-81 pursuant to subsection d. of section 103 of P.L.1977, c.110
(C.5:12-103). No licensee or its officers, employees or agents shall be
criminally or civilly liable by reason of any such questioning.

As to assault, I think you need to read a definition of assault. Reasonable force in detaining someone is not assault.

davet82 wrote: »

Stay in your hotel room with no food or water though sounds 'against their will', i'd rather the police turn up especially when i've done nothing legally wrong.

These guys would have been free to call the police at any time, the police would have upheld the casino's right to detain.

Thats a fine line too. Casinos are well known for coercing people to gamble, my experince in vegas was the more i lost the more free drink i got.

I think you need to look up the definition of "coerce" and "hospitality" - one means a gun to your head, the other a drink in your hand. There's a reason I don't drink and gamble, but I don't blame the casino for offering.

yes but the bank wouldnt try sue me!

They would if you failed to return the cash.

I think it stinks, the house always wins and for once the little guy walks away with some cash because of their mistake and to take legal action is wrong imo.

The house doesn't always win, otherwise there would be no point in gambling. However Gaming Commissions were set up to ensure that the house was fair for gamblers and to protect the house from cheats. I'm suprised that the pitboss didn't shut this game down when it was clear the cards were unshuffled; but the players knowingly raised their bets to the maximum.

Not exactly the same thing but if i slipped on a wet supermarket floor and damaged it, should the supermarket sue me for their negligence?

Strange analogy - Lets say you slipped and noticed there was a crack and the tiles were loose. You started picking at it, pulling the tiles off one by one until you cleared all the loose tiles. I think this is closer to what they did.

B.A._Baracus

I wonder how many casinos are still run my mobsters these days?
We all know back in the day vegas and atlantic city were mafia towns. But alot of the mafia went down in the 70s and 80s....

But then again, mafia is still around. :pac:

MadsL

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I wonder how many casinos are still run my mobsters these days?
We all know back in the day vegas and atlantic city were mafia towns. But alot of the mafia went down in the 70s and 80s....

But then again, mafia is still around. :pac:

Been watching Casino recently?? Mobsters, do you call women 'broads'?

The Casino business in America is run by three groups.
1. Media moguls like MGM,
2. Native Americans
3. Wealthy net worth individuals like Trump or Wynn

It's not as easy as you think making a profit, casinos are hugely labour intensive and gamblers are fickle.

Last time I was in Reno, three major casinos had closed. Tropicana recently posted sizeable losses. - $4.8 million on net revenues of $155.2 million for the quarter ended March 31. That’s compared with a loss of $1.4 million on net revenue of $156.8 million in the first quarter of 2011.

Casinos in Dublin have regularly gone out of business.

B.A._Baracus

MadsL wrote: »

Been watching Casino recently?? Mobsters, do you call women 'broads'?

The Casino business in America is run by three groups.
1. Media moguls like MGM,
2. Native Americans
3. Wealthy net worth individuals like Trump or Wynn

It's not as easy as you think making a profit, casinos are hugely labour intensive and gamblers are fickle.

Last time I was in Reno, three major casinos had closed. Tropicana recently posted sizeable losses. - $4.8 million on net revenues of $155.2 million for the quarter ended March 31. That’s compared with a loss of $1.4 million on net revenue of $156.8 million in the first quarter of 2011.

Casinos in Dublin have regularly gone out of business.

Be honest, your entire post was just to drop that in there wasnt it ...

MadsL

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Be honest, your entire post was just to drop that in there wasnt it ...

If I was really boasting I'd mention that I'll be in Vegas in two weeks (#*excited*#)

:D:D

dj jarvis

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Be honest, your entire post was just to drop that in there wasnt it ...

no one boasts about going to reno

MadsL

dj jarvis wrote: »

no one boasts about going to reno

Never hear of Johnny Cash?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDktBZzQIiU