The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's not go bastardising the English language here

As I said - I had a child with a woman.

But you didn't. You RAISED a child with a woman. You HAD a child with a man. A man was required for you to have a child. That man is the father of your child. I'm not trying to be a knob here (though you may think that untrue:) ) I just don't like this kind of language that denies whats actually happened, or aims to divert from what has actually happened. You are a lesbian, which in turn means that you are biologically incompatible with your chosen partner. I didn't make the rules. When you want a child, you must go to a biologically compatible person, i.e. a man. Now, you may choose to use language to divert from the reality of this, but I don't. The reality, is that you had a child with a man, but raised it with another woman.

I find this concern for the 'sperm donor' interesting in light of the hundreds of years when men were free to 'donate sperm' and walk away...some are still doing that.
But let a woman decide to shoulder the responsibilities alone or with her female partner then its all 'oooh that poor man had his sperm robbed' ...:rolleyes:

I'm not concerned for the donor at all. If he willingly donates his sperm in such an arrangement, well, thats a decision he makes. My concern lies with the child who was denied a father. Here's a question if you can answer honestly. Did you and the father of your child, before having a child, give due consideration to the denial of a father in your childs life, and if it would possibly have any negative consequences? If so, may I ask what you did in terms of consideration? Again, this may be too personal a question, so no worries if you'd prefer not to get into it.

bluewolf wrote: »

I was hoping to have a proper two way discussion on this where we could hear your side of things and tease out the issues so we could all learn a little.
But since you're going to call us all liars, I'm out of here. No point.

No problem. Though again, I'd ask you to think about the question. Maybe even think of the question when observing mothers and fathers with their children in the future, and see if you can see common differences cropping up. You'll even see a lot in the playground. Be aware of your desire NOT to see differences too, as it'll cloud your judgement.

28064212 wrote: »

In other words "I know my argument is weak and won't stand up to any kind of scrutiny"

Again, you are posting like I care what you think I'm doing or thinking? You can decide to take it whatever way you like. I've said what I've said, now its up to you to do and think as you will.

By the way, I have absolute proof that God doesn't exist. I'm not going to tell you about it though, you already have the answers. Obviously you don't want to accept it on a public forum, but you know the truth

Good on ye.

JimiTime wrote: »

But you didn't. You RAISED a child with a woman. You HAD a child with a man. A man was required for you to have a child. That man is the father of your child. I'm not trying to be a knob here (though you may think that untrue:) ) I just don't like this kind of language that denies whats actually happened, or aims to divert from what has actually happened. You are a lesbian, which in turn means that you are biologically incompatible with your chosen partner. I didn't make the rules. When you want a child, you must go to a biologically compatible person, i.e. a man. Now, you may choose to use language to divert from the reality of this, but I don't. The reality, is that you had a child with a man, but raised it with another woman.

I'm not concerned for the donor at all. If he willingly donates his sperm in such an arrangement, well, thats a decision he makes. My concern lies with the child who was denied a father. Here's a question if you can answer honestly. Did you and the father of your child, before having a child, give due consideration to the denial of a father in your childs life, and if it would possibly have any negative consequences? If so, may I ask what you did in terms of consideration? Again, this may be too personal a question, so no worries if you'd prefer not to get into it.

Sonics and bluewolf have already answered this question re: being raised without a father many, many, many, manymanymany, times already but you don't want to hear what they have to say.

Koth has written of being raised without a mother. You are ignoring him too.

Do you object to single parents too since you are concerned about children not having a father/mother figure?

We have collectively dealt with every single point you have made already when those exact same points were raised by other posters - yet you ignore this.

You write about 'differences' but when asked to clarify what exactly you think these differences are you ignore this too.

One would suspect that you are not interested in a discussion but are intent on repeating the same old tosh over and over in hope that we will all go away. Hate to be the bringer of ill tidings, but Jimi - we ain't going away.

Penn wrote: »

I'm honestly trying to think of something and drawing a blank. Every time I try to think of something either of my parents did, I realise that it could be done by a member of the opposite sex, so it doesn't count.

While I'm having a think, why not post some of the differences you've thought of?

So tell us the things that WERE done by your dad, but not mum in their dealings with you that you say COULD have been done by either of them.

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not concerned for the donor at all. If he willingly donates his sperm in such an arrangement, well, thats a decision he makes. My concern lies with the child who was denied a father. Here's a question if you can answer honestly. Did you and the father of your child, before having a child, give due consideration to the denial of a father in your childs life, and if it would possibly have any negative consequences? If so, may I ask what you did in terms of consideration? Again, this may be too personal a question, so no worries if you'd prefer not to get into it.

I was raised by a Lesbian couple. My cousin was raised by a single (straight) mother.
For the most part, we grew up in the same world, same circumstances.
We both did Tae Kwon Do, both played numerous sports. He's now a fully qualified carpenter, and I have a preference for networking and IT systems.
His mother taught him to shave, and my mother taught me to shave.

We're both typical lads, though he's more of a 'bloke' than I, but that's really down to our different personal interests.

We'll both be off to his stag party in a few weeks, and in turn he'll be coming to mine if I marry.

Now tell me Jimi. How are we disadvantaged because there was no father? How am I disadvantaged because my mother was a lesbian?

What -exactly- is wrong with us?

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Was there differences between my mum and dad? Yes of course. Lots.

What would you be thinking of?

Penn

JimiTime wrote: »

No problem. Though again, I'd ask you to think about the question. Maybe even think of the question when observing mothers and fathers with their children in the future, and see if you can see common differences cropping up. You'll even see a lot in the playground. Be aware of your desire NOT to see differences too, as it'll cloud your judgement.

I have two sisters who are married and have children.

Sister A is a lot stricter with her child, while her husband is more passive.
Sister B is more passive, while her husband is more strict.

You can't generalise parents by their gender. It's never a case of "All mothers act one way and all fathers act one way, so child needs mother and father". All parents are different, because people are different. Again, you've provided nothing to demonstrate that a child must have a mother and a father, despite actual proof from people here that it's not necessary.

Sonics2k wrote: »

What -exactly- is wrong with us?

Sonic - you have made an excellent observation there.

Jimi - since Sonic and bluewolf were 'denied' a father (which is not to say they did not have male role models) what exactly is wrong with them?

JimiTime wrote: »

What would you be thinking of?

I like how you quote that one line and ignore the rest of the post.

That's some good ol fashioned dishonesty Jimi.

Penn

JimiTime wrote: »

So tell us the things that WERE done by your dad, but not mum in their dealings with you that you say COULD have been done by either of them.

Okay.

- My father taught me how to drive. My mother could have done that.
- My father taught me how to shave. My mother could have done that.
- My mother cooked and cleaned. My father could have done that.
- My mother sewed clothes. My father could have done that.

Now why don't you give some things that can't be done by the other.

Penn wrote: »

Okay.

- My father taught me how to drive. My mother could have done that.
- My father taught me how to shave. My mother could have done that.
- My mother cooked and cleaned. My father could have done that.
- My mother sewed clothes. My father could have done that.

Now why don't you give some things that can't be done by the other.

While you are doing that don't forget to tell Sonic and bluewolf what is wrong with them.

Sonics2k wrote: »

I was raised by a Lesbian couple. My cousin was raised by a single (straight) mother.
For the most part, we grew up in the same world, same circumstances.
We both did Tae Kwon Do, both played numerous sports. He's now a fully qualified carpenter, and I have a preference for networking and IT systems.
His mother taught him to shave, and my mother taught me to shave.

We're both typical lads, though he's more of a 'bloke' than I, but that's really down to our different personal interests.

We'll both be off to his stag party in a few weeks, and in turn he'll be coming to mine if I marry.

Now tell me Jimi. How are we disadvantaged because there was no father? How am I disadvantaged because my mother was a lesbian?

What -exactly- is wrong with us?

I don't know you, nor do I believe that being raised by homosexuals = you will be a car crash. Nor do I believe that its nuclear family versus homosexual family. A homosexual family can be two women, two men, no biological connection, or the child of one of them etc. For instance, it could be shown that lesbian women raising a child that is biologically attached to one of the women, is better than two homosexual men etc.

Sonics2k wrote: »

I like how you quote that one line and ignore the rest of the post.

That's some good ol fashioned dishonesty Jimi.

No, the rest was just irrelevant to what I was asking.

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't know you, nor do I believe that being raised by homosexuals = you will be a car crash. Nor do I believe that its nuclear family versus homosexual family. A homosexual family can be two women, two men, no biological connection, or the child of one of them etc. For instance, it could be shown that lesbian women raising a child that is biologically attached to one of the women, is better than two homosexual men etc.

Being heterosexual parent's does not mean both parent's (or either) have a biological connection with their children. What's your point?

Edit to say: Sonic and Bluewolf - bet you are both delighted to hear neither of you is a 'car crash'

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't know you, nor do I believe that being raised by homosexuals = you will be a car crash. Nor do I believe that its nuclear family versus homosexual family. A homosexual family can be two women, two men, no biological connection, or the child of one of them etc. For instance, it could be shown that lesbian women raising a child that is biologically attached to one of the women, is better than two homosexual men etc.

Does anyone have that dodge gif?

You claimed that children need both a mother and father.

Neither my cousin or I had a father. So what is wrong with us? How -exactly- did we have a harder time?

Penn wrote: »

Okay.

- My father taught me how to drive. My mother could have done that.
- My father taught me how to shave. My mother could have done that.
- My mother cooked and cleaned. My father could have done that.
- My mother sewed clothes. My father could have done that.

Now why don't you give some things that can't be done by the other.

Awww, disappointed. Mammy does the cookin, kinda stuff. I was expecting better than that Penn

Ok, this is a genuine call for honesty. Now please think about it. HONESTLY, forgetting about arguments, maybe looking silly, or suferring the ire of ones side etc. Can any of you seriously not come up with differences in how a father does, acts and deals with things, in general, to the way a mother does? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't hold back your answer if you've got one.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Does anyone have that dodge gif?

You claimed that children need both a mother and father.

Neither my cousin or I had a father. So what is wrong with us? How -exactly- did we have a harder time?

No, I claimed that the optimum environment was with a mother and a father.

28064212

JimiTime wrote: »

Awww, disappointed. Mammy does the cookin, kinda stuff. I was expecting better than that Penn

Ok, this is a genuine call for honesty. Now please think about it. HONESTLY, forgetting about arguments, maybe looking silly, or suferring the ire of ones side etc. Can any of you seriously not come up with differences in how a father does, acts and deals with things, in general, to the way a mother does? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't hold back your answer if you've got one.

No, can't come up with a single difference that could be applied "in general". Want to claim I'm lying again?

Here's a crazy, insane, totally off-the-wall bananas idea: Why don't you post the differences you perceive? I know it's out-there and totally unfair of me to make such a ridiculous demand of you, but maybe, just maybe, it might actually develop into a discussion instead of this utterly nonsensical merry-go-round that you seem intent on perpetuating

JimiTime wrote: »

No, I claimed that the optimum environment was with a mother and a father.

And that has been disproven.

You are ignoring posts, studies, personal statements and outright facts because you simply do not want to change your mind.

You are openly allowing your personal opinions on homosexuality to influence your decision on whether or not they are suitable to raise children.

Well here's a nice little closing statement. Homosexuals are perfectly suitable to raise a child, as much as any heterosexual child.

I can only hope that I can raise my own two children half as well as my lesbian mother raised me. Because she really did give, provide and teach me everything I needed.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Does anyone have that dodge gif?

You claimed that children need both a mother and father.

Neither my cousin or I had a father. So what is wrong with us? How -exactly- did we have a harder time?

My nieces had a mother and a father (my brother as it happens)- their father worked in a different country their entire lives (all of them are in their 20s now). They saw him briefly on a Friday night, on Saturday he was either working in his home office or glued to some sports channel (not now darling, I'm watching the soccer/rugby/golf/fly racing) until dinner time (around 9 pm as they are very 'continental'), Sunday was 'his' day to play golf and zip around Switzerland in his sportscar for ****s and giggles. By the time the girls got up on Monday morning he was gone again. Their name for him was 'The Man from Milan'

My son had two parents who were always there apart from a brief period when I worked in a different city and returned home every Thurs evening and returned to work early Monday morning. We then spent the weekend doing family stuff together (all 3 of us). I quit my job as it wasn't fair to my son.

Apparently my brother's family life vis a vis his children was better than mine... the mind boggles.

JimiTime wrote: »

Awww, disappointed. Mammy does the cookin, kinda stuff. I was expecting better than that Penn

Ok, this is a genuine call for honesty. Now please think about it. HONESTLY, forgetting about arguments, maybe looking silly, or suferring the ire of ones side etc. Can any of you seriously not come up with differences in how a father does, acts and deals with things, in general, to the way a mother does? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't hold back your answer if you've got one.

Jimi - no one can think of anything that one parent did that couldn't have been done by the other parent. Jeeze....

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sonics and bluewolf have already answered this question re: being raised without a father many, many, many, manymanymany, times already but you don't want to hear what they have to say.

Its irrelevant, as the argument is not that children will be monsters if not raised by their mothers and fathers.

Do you object to single parents too since you are concerned about children not having a father/mother figure?

I don't know what you mean by object. Women have babies with men. If they don't stay with the man or whatever, theres not a lot that can be done, but yes, I believe that child has missed out on having the optimal environment for their development. What I don't think should be done, is for the state to support a system that leaves children without mothers or fathers. Now, the welfare system was quated earlier by someone in relation to single parents. Well, unfortunately, its a fact of life and we must be compassionate and consider the child. Could it be better arranged, maybe, but thats a whole different discussion.

You write about 'differences' but when asked to clarify what exactly you think these differences are you ignore this too.

Not ignored, encouraged independent thought on the matter. Much better for you guys to answer it, than me.

One would suspect that you are not interested in a discussion but are intent on repeating the same old tosh over and over in hope that we will all go away. Hate to be the bringer of ill tidings, but Jimi - we ain't going away.

I'm looking for people to think, not to go away. I'm looking for people to see the answers that are already within them, rather than make it easy to argue and pick apart points. Its not about winning an argument. I know, that no matter what I say, it'll be torn apart. Studies will be posted, and then a counter study posted, etc etc. I'd rather people just thought about it. Its obviousto me, and many more, including fatherless people I know. I can only assume the answers have been dulled in the people on your side of the argument due to a desire not to accept it.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My nieces had a mother and a father (my brother as it happens)- their father worked in a different country their entire lives (all of them are in their 20s now). They saw him briefly on a Friday night, on Saturday he was either working in his home office or glued to some sports channel (not now darling, I'm watching the soccer/rugby/golf/fly racing) until dinner time (around 9 pm as they are very 'continental'), Sunday was 'his' day to play golf and zip around Switzerland in his sportscar for ****s and giggles. By the time the girls got up on Monday morning he was gone again. Their name for him was 'The Man from Milan'

My son had two parents who were always there apart from a brief period when I worked in a different city and returned home every Thurs evening and returned to work early Monday morning. We then spent the weekend doing family stuff together (all 3 of us). I quit my job as it wasn't fair to my son.

Apparently my brother's family life vis a vis his children was better than mine... the mind boggles.

Dear oh dear oh dear. And this is why no answer will be spoonfed to you.

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm looking for people to think, not to go away. I'm looking for people to see the answers that are already within them, rather than make it easy to argue and pick apart points. Its not about winning an argument. I know, that no matter what I say, it'll be torn apart. Studies will be posted, and then a counter study posted, etc etc. I'd rather people just thought about it. Its obviousto me, and many more, including fatherless people I know. I can only assume the answers have been dulled in the people on your side of the argument due to a desire not to accept it.

No - you are looking for people to agree with you. But, dear Jimi, they do not agree.

doctoremma

JimiTime wrote: »

Awww, disappointed. Mammy does the cookin, kinda stuff. I was expecting better than that Penn

Ok, this is a genuine call for honesty. Now please think about it. HONESTLY, forgetting about arguments, maybe looking silly, or suferring the ire of ones side etc. Can any of you seriously not come up with differences in how a father does, acts and deals with things, in general, to the way a mother does? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't hold back your answer if you've got one.

Jimi, you're better than this. Surely you're better than this?

Penn indulged you and gave examples of differences between his Mum and his Dad. I once suggested that, potentially, you were imagining a disciplinarian father tempered by a sympathetic mother, that kind of thing. You have rudely dismissed Penn's genuine attempt to address your question (despite the burden of proof being yours), I suspect that my example would be considered similarly facile.

This means we aren't going to be able to match the criteria you have in your head for key gender-specific differences between Mum and Dad. Therefore, I simply cannot understand why you won't enlighten us in our ignorance*. If you're working up to a big one, an irrefutable difference, I suggest now is the time, as this "debate" isn't even worthy of a five year old.

*Not true.