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Child Item

The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

PDN

Certain individuals seem to be somewhat obsessed with the subject of homosexuality. To avoid the Forum being over-run with numerous threads on this subject, I am launching a MegaThread similar to the ones we already have on other subjects.

Please note that the Forum Charter still applies to megathreads - so try to treat each other with respect and courtesy, even if the subject is one that makes you hot and bothered.

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28064212

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suspect the answer is the homosexual couple could never be better then this so called ideal heterosexual couple. How can one possibly be better than the ideal?

Only after they've met the minimum qualifying criteria of course, it's not possible to compare bad heterosexual parents to good homosexual parents for some reason

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

For whatever reason, you had a child with a man, but did not wish to be with this man or he with you or whatever.

It begs the question, did the father know what was on the way in terms of your lesbianism? Also, was any consideration given to the child in terms of him/her having a father? No problem if its too personal, its just you brought up the specifics of your scenario, and I'd need to know the details before I can give an opinion.

.

BTW - much lolz at your attempt to paint me as a man using lezbeen who stole some poor innocent guy's sperm and then wouldn't let him hold the baby.

Suffice to say you are sooooo off base you ain't even in the same universe.

NuMarvel

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to clarify, nobody is suggesting that bad parents don't exist, or that just because your mum and dad are there for your rearing you'll be grand etc. Its not a case of, 'On the left, we have an alcoholic, abusive, drug addicted nuclear family, and on the right we have 2 professional clean living homosexuals. Who gets the kids??' This is about the reality of an adoption situation, where we have a qualifying nuclear family and a homosexual couple. In THAT scenario, for the sake of looking for the ideal for a child, the nuclear family is a shoe in. If a situation arises, like your own, it should be taken on its merits. For whatever reason, you had a child with a man, but did not wish to be with this man or he with you or whatever. This is not ideal for society, nor a child, but it happens. My nephew was fatherless unfortunately due to his fathers death when he was 2 weeks old. What the state should not do, is encourage it. For the cases that arise, it should deal with it fairly and compassionately. I'm assuming your case was dealt with, and you achieved your desired outcome?

It's worth pointing out that the State supports, and even embraces, non-traditional families.

For example, the social welfare system offers a One Parent Family Allowance, and PAYE workers can avail of a One Parent Family tax credit.

Through the HSE, the State has placed foster children with many gay couples and regularly advertises in gay magazines for prospective foster parent. Think about that for a second: children already in a vulnerable state are placed with what you would view as being less than ideal parents. The former Minister for Children and Youth stood up in the Seanad and said:

Gay men and lesbians make very good parents. It must be made clear they always have and always will. We must also acknowledge that many same-sex couples foster children. They are entrusted to them by the State through the Health Service Executive proving the State does not have any set view on this matter. The argument that same-sex couples cannot be good parents is contrary to the case.

And when the Ombudsman for Children was giving her advice to the Government on both the Adoption Bill and the Civil Partnership Bill, she highlighted on both occasions how the Bills were penalising families with same sex parents. This is the woman tasked with promoting the rights and welfare of all children in Ireland. If she had an issue with same sex couples fostering or adopting, she would say it. Instead, she went in the other direction and says more needs to be done.

So with all due respect, what makes you more qualified to judge what's best for children than the Ombudsman for Children?

JimiTime

doctoremma wrote: »

Jimi, there are people better equipped to answer your question. Having been raised by a mother and father, I simply cannot imagine or compare how I or life might have turned out had I been raised by a mother and mother or father and father.

TBH, you don't need to put your hand in a fire to know its going to burn.

Before I even begin to speculate, I'd have to have an answer to the following (from a much earlier post): what types of characteristics and interplay you are thinking of when you speak about gender-specific dynamics? Can you sketch a rough example of a parental interaction between female and male that you don't think would work between male and male or female and female?

Fathers play differently to mothers, they respond differently, they teach in different ways and that's only the beginning of the explicit things. The implicit differences between men and women, mothers and fathers will also be experienced by the child.

[Deleted User]

JimiTime wrote: »

TBH, you don't need to put your hand in a fire to know its going to burn.

Fathers play differently to mothers, they respond differently, they teach in different ways and that's only the beginning of the explicit things. The implicit differences between men and women, mothers and fathers will also be experienced by the child.

We've been through this, jimi.
"There are differences"
"what are they?"
"there are differences. they're different"

We want to know what they are, not that you think there are any - we know that much

Penn

JimiTime wrote: »

TBH, you don't need to put your hand in a fire to know its going to burn.

Fathers play differently to mothers, they respond differently, they teach in different ways and that's only the beginning of the explicit things. The implicit differences between men and women, mothers and fathers will also be experienced by the child.

Sin City

NuMarvel wrote: »

It's worth pointing out that the State supports, and even embraces, non-traditional families.

For example, the social welfare system offers a One Parent Family Allowance, and PAYE workers can avail of a One Parent Family tax credit.

Through the HSE, the State has placed foster children with many gay couples and regularly advertises in gay magazines for prospective foster parent. Think about that for a second: children already in a vulnerable state are placed with what you would view as being less than ideal parents. The former Minister for Children and Youth stood up in the Seanad and said:

And when the Ombudsman for Children was giving her advice to the Government on both the Adoption Bill and the Civil Partnership Bill, she highlighted on both occasions how the Bills were penalising families with same sex parents. This is the woman tasked with promoting the rights and welfare of all children in Ireland. If she had an issue with same sex couples fostering or adopting, she would say it. Instead, she went in the other direction and says more needs to be done.

So with all due respect, what makes you more qualified to judge what's best for children than the Ombudsman for Children?

well holy god

thats pretty solid evidence that the state doesn't views homosexual couples as inferior[HTML][/HTML]

JimiTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

BTW - much lolz at your attempt to paint me as a man using lezbeen who stole some poor innocent guy's sperm and then wouldn't let him hold the baby.

Suffice to say you are sooooo off base you ain't even in the same universe.

I asked questions, I didn't paint any picture. I was asking you, if it wasn't to personal, to paint the picture. I knew a father was needed, and that you were a lesbian, so asked for your circumstance.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No I had a child with a woman

Really? and how does that work? C'mon, lets not go bastardising reality here. You had a child with a man, but the father of your child was just used as a sperm donor. that does NOT equate to, 'I had a child with a woman'.

whose biological father was a Gay man so I doubt very much if my lesbianism was much of an issue for him.

Such arrangements happen and people are free to make their decisions. However, just because people decide that fathers are inconsequential in their children's lives doesn't mean the state should. Once a child is born, the welfare of the child then becomes an issue for the state, whatever arrangements their parents have made. So in terms of supporting single parents etc, its about the child. However, the state should not actively encourage fatherless or motherless children.

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

We've been through this, jimi.
"There are differences"
"what are they?"
"there are differences. they're different"

We want to know what they are, not that you think there are any - we know that much

I'd rather encourage those on your side of the argument, who have experience of a good mum and dad explain the differences I pointed out.

[Deleted User]

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd rather encourage those on your side of the argument, who have experience of a good mum and dad explain the differences I pointed out.

As I said yesterday, you made the claim, you back it up. We don't see an issue, you do. You're the one who claims there are differences which would have a detrimental impact on the child's upbringing if they were not present.

I'm also struck by your specifying "have experience of a good mum and dad".
Yesterday when we couldn't see the issue with it, you were appealing to our experience of parental upbringing to see if there was an issue. Now that a few of us have replied with that experience you asked for, namely having gay parents, you've moved on again to something else.

Why don't you try actually backing up your position instead of repeatedly stating the same thing - "there are differences" - or changing your goalposts when the experience and studies asked for have been provided and do not agree with you?

JimiTime

Penn wrote: »

Were you raised by your mum and dad? If so, are you telling me that YOU cannot point to the differences? Have you friends with children? Are you telling me that YOU cannot see the differences?

You can keep pestering, and using gifs all you want, but I'm not going to feed you, when the answers are already in you.

28064212

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd rather encourage those on your side of the argument, who have experience of a good mum and dad explain the differences I pointed out.

While ignoring the experience of those who had a good mum and mum or dad and dad?

But since you asked, no, I don't think that my mother was incapable of providing parental attributes that my father provided. Nor do I think my father was incapable of providing parental attributes that my mother provided. Nor would I claim that my single experience was some sort of proof of anything.

So, now that we've got that out of the way:
"There are differences"
"what are they?"

MrPudding

NuMarvel wrote: »

So with all due respect, what makes you more qualified to judge what's best for children than the Ombudsman for Children?

Sin City wrote: »

well holy god

thats pretty solid evidence that the state doesn't views homosexual couples as inferior

Potential issue here. It is possible that the Ombudsman, and anyone that speaks in favour of same sex anything is part of the Gay Agenda (TM) and therefore their word, and any studies are biassed and worthless.

This means that only people who have not been taken in by the lies, people like Jimi for example, know the truth. Of course he can't offer any proof for his belief, he knows a man and a woman are best. I mean, it is sooo obvious, how can you not see it. If you can't see it then you have been taken in by the conspiracy.

People, we need to throw off the shackles of evidence based knowledge and go back to the place where we decide on the value and rightness or wrongness of things based on gut instinct, how iccky we think they are and our own experiences. Stop being sheeple people!

MrP

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd rather encourage those on your side of the argument, who have experience of a good mum and dad explain the differences I pointed out.

You want people who disagree with you, who have been raised by a mother and father, to explain the differences that you're claiming exist? If they don't agree with you, how are they to know what the differences are? They'd be guessing what you're thinking. Why not just give your list of differences to avoid this turning into the "guess what Jimi is thinking" game?

Sin City

MrPudding wrote: »

Potential issue here. It is possible that the Ombudsman, and anyone that speaks in favour of same sex anything is part of the Gay Agenda (TM) and therefore their word, and any studies are biassed and worthless.

This means that only people who have not been taken in by the lies, people like Jimi for example, know the truth. Of course he can't offer any proof for his belief, he knows a man and a woman are best. I mean, it is sooo obvious, how can you not see it. If you can't see it then you have been taken in by the conspiracy.

People, we need to throw off the shackles of evidence based knowledge and go back to the place where we decide on the value and rightness or wrongness of things based on gut instinct, how iccky we think they are and our own experiences. Stop being sheeple people!

MrP

I'm going to assume that post was all tongue in cheek (gay agenda pmsl and those who do not agree with me have been taken in by their lies )

sounds almost like a certain book , if it says so it must be true . if its not in the book or the book doesn't like someone then they will burn in hell

CerebralCortex

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd rather encourage those on your side of the argument, who have experience of a good mum and dad explain the differences I pointed out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ

Some experience for ya. They even go to church... ...the mind boggles.

JimiTime

28064212 wrote: »

While ignoring the experience of those who had a good mum and mum or dad and dad?

Nope, thats not what I said.

But since you asked, no, I don't think that my mother was incapable of providing parental attributes that my father provided. Nor do I think my father was incapable of providing parental attributes that my mother provided. Nor would I claim that my single experience was some sort of proof of anything.

You'd be wrong, unless you are one of the exceptions. Also, its not about capabilities, but rather natural inclinations men and women have. I would ask, you think again.

So, now that we've got that out of the way:
"There are differences"
"what are they?"

You already know the answers.

JimiTime

CerebralCortex wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ

Some experience for ya. They even go to church... ...the mind boggles.

Again, thats not what was asked.

[Deleted User]

For god's sake jimi

"i want to hear from people with experiences"
"okay here they are"
"no i want to hear from people with experiences OF A MUM AND DAD"
"okay here they are"
"you're wrong"

You asked for experience, you got it. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean their experience is wrong.

Give your answers and stop telling people "think again"

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

You want people who disagree with you, who have been raised by a mother and father, to explain the differences that you're claiming exist? If they don't agree with you, how are they to know what the differences are? They'd be guessing what you're thinking. Why not just give your list of differences to avoid this turning into the "guess what Jimi is thinking" game?

Forget what I'm thinking, my thoughts can be put away as 'Ahh but that was you'. I'm asking for you to look at what you know. I'm looking for the people in denial of the differences, to come out of the closet and tell us the answers, because they know they're there;)

Penn

JimiTime wrote: »

Were you raised by your mum and dad? If so, are you telling me that YOU cannot point to the differences? Have you friends with children? Are you telling me that YOU cannot see the differences?

Yes, I cannot point to the differences. I honestly cannot think of one important thing that my father did that another mother couldn't have done, or that my mother did that another father couldn't have done. Honestly.

So why don't you explain to us what the differences are as you see them? The reason I posted that gif was because you've been asked that question before, and you keep responding with things like "There are differences" or "Can't you point out how there are no differences?"

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

I asked questions, I didn't paint any picture. I was asking you, if it wasn't to personal, to paint the picture. I knew a father was needed, and that you were a lesbian, so asked for your circumstance.

Really? and how does that work? C'mon, lets not go bastardising reality here. You had a child with a man, but the father of your child was just used as a sperm donor. that does NOT equate to, 'I had a child with a woman'.

Such arrangements happen and people are free to make their decisions. However, just because people decide that fathers are inconsequential in their children's lives doesn't mean the state should. Once a child is born, the welfare of the child then becomes an issue for the state, whatever arrangements their parents have made. So in terms of supporting single parents etc, its about the child. However, the state should not actively encourage fatherless or motherless children.

Let's not go bastardising the English language here

with/wiT͟H/

Preposition:
Accompanied by (another person or thing): "steak with a bottle of red wine".
In the same direction as: "swim with the current".

As I said - I had a child with a woman.

I find this concern for the 'sperm donor' interesting in light of the hundreds of years when men were free to 'donate sperm' and walk away...some are still doing that.
But let a woman decide to shoulder the responsibilities alone or with her female partner then its all 'oooh that poor man had his sperm robbed' ...:rolleyes:

in 2009

Over 32% of births were to single mothers. The average age of single mothers was 27.5 years.

http://www.esri.ie/news_events/latest_press_releases/perinatal_statistics_repo_3/index.xml

What percentage of those have no idea where their 'sperm donor' is as 'daddy' took to the hills?
Were arrangements made or did the 'sperm donor' just abdicate his responsibilities?

As for 'Once a child is born, the welfare of the child then becomes an issue for the state, whatever arrangements their parents have made.' Indeed.

Unmarried 'Daddy' being able to take to the hills is enshrined in Irish legislation in the form of Guardianship of Infants Act, 1964

(4) The mother of an illegitimate infant shall be guardian of the infant.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0007/sec0006.html

Although steps are being made to force men to take responsibility for the results of their 'donations' - and this legislation is deeply unfair to unmarried fathers who do want to participate in their children's lives it has yet to be repealed or changed - all we have is vague promises about a referendum on Children's Rights- the fact remains that as it currently stands Irish law makes a child born outside marriage the sole responsibility of it's mother allowing some men to skip away and forcing women to have to resort to the courts to get them to take responsibility.

Wonder what effect that has on society, children and the family?

Sin City

CerebralCortex wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ

Some experience for ya. They even go to church... ...the mind boggles.

Nobodies perfect

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

For god's sake jimi

"i want to hear from people with experiences"
"okay here they are"
"no i want to hear from people with experiences OF A MUM AND DAD"
"okay here they are"
"you're wrong"

You asked for experience, you got it. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean their experience is wrong.

Give your answers and stop telling people "think again"

Unfortunately bluewolf, people like to win arguments. They also like to have the popular opinion. For many, its not about truth or honesty. It would do you guys no good to be given a set of answers for you to spin, chew, misrepresent etc. The fact that I know, and witness daily, the obvious differences (And btw, I believe you probably know also, as you likely see other fathers and mothers in action), means that most others also know. You guys can fling mud, sarcasm, gifs, insults, backslaps etc all you want, but the answers are within you already. They may not come out here in the public fora, but you know at least some of the explicit the differences I referred to.

JimiTime

Penn wrote: »

Yes, I cannot point to the differences. I honestly cannot think of one important thing that my father did that another mother couldn't have done, or that my mother did that another father couldn't have done. Honestly.

Ok, can you tell me of the unimportant things that were different?

[Deleted User]

I was hoping to have a proper two way discussion on this where we could hear your side of things and tease out the issues so we could all learn a little.
But since you're going to call us all liars, I'm out of here. No point.

28064212

JimiTime wrote: »

Unfortunately bluewolf, people like to win arguments. They also like to have the popular opinion. For many, its not about truth or honesty. It would do you guys no good to be given a set of answers for you to spin, chew, misrepresent etc.

In other words "I know my argument is weak and won't stand up to any kind of scrutiny"

JimiTime wrote: »

The fact that I know, and witness daily, the obvious differences (And btw, I believe you probably know also, as you likely see other fathers and mothers in action), means that most others also know. You guys can fling mud, sarcasm, gifs, insults, backslaps etc all you want, but the answers are within you already. They may not come out here in the public fora, but you know at least some of the explicit the differences I referred to.

So now all of us are lying?

By the way, I have absolute proof that God doesn't exist. I'm not going to tell you about it though, you already have the answers. Obviously you don't want to accept it on a public forum, but you know the truth

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Forget what I'm thinking, my thoughts can be put away as 'Ahh but that was you'. I'm asking for you to look at what you know. I'm looking for the people in denial of the differences, to come out of the closet and tell us the answers, because they know they're there;)

And you're forgetting that I stated that I grew up without my biological mother after she died when I was still quite young. You're asking me to state the differences you keep alluding to while I have no experience of them.

Penn

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, can you tell me of the unimportant things that were different?

I'm honestly trying to think of something and drawing a blank. Every time I try to think of something either of my parents did, I realise that it could be done by a member of the opposite sex, so it doesn't count.

While I'm having a think, why not post some of the differences you've thought of?

nozzferrahhtoo

JimiTime wrote: »

Were you raised by your mum and dad? If so, are you telling me that YOU cannot point to the differences?

Was there differences between my mum and dad? Yes of course. Lots. Were any of those differences linkable to their sex? No.

They were different _people_ so of course there was differences between them. That however has nothing to do with this thread, this topic, or your claims however. IF this is what your whole position is based on... the fact that different people are different.... then you are on even shakier ground than I thought before.

No wonder you are not actually listing any of the differences and are ducking and dodging behind lines like "You already know what they are" or "It would do you no good for me to answer" or calling everyone liars or whatever cop out you are peddling today to avoid the question you know you can not answer.

When it comes down to it.... and a whole stream of posts in the last hours shows I am FAR from alone in seeing this.... you are espousing a position... you are being asked a simple question about that position.... and you are leaping about like a teenage Russian acrobat on hot coals trying to dodge out of answering it.

If YOU think there are differences between males and females in some way that is relevant to the successful and healthy upbringing of a child then YOU tell us what they are rather than engaging in this highly transparent game of dodge. We have already had Philologos/Jakkass doing that for several pages now. No point in you repeating the performance.