Happyman42 wrote: » That is NOT the question you were asked.
The British legitimised the action of the IRA by doing a deal with them and enshrining the right to align yourself with them and to remember them, in the GFA, that everybody signed up to.
alastair wrote: » Ah well - if you think your 'logic' there makes any more sense than it does with regard to: then you'd be mistaken (again).
Noreen1 wrote: » Of course you can be proud to be Irish and Protestant without being a member of the OO. I'm not a member, or supporter, of the OO, by the way. But plenty of Protestants, who are not members of the OO, go to these marches, and, whether I like it or not, some Protestants see King Billy as the defender of their Religion, and the defender of Religious freedom, but without seeing any need for triumphalism, or having any dislike against either the Irish, or Catholics. If we prevent an orderly, peaceful march in Dublin - and again, I stress the need to respect Nationalist sentiments - then we are discriminating against them, in the same way that Catholics in Northern Ireland were discriminated against for years - and the extremists among the OO get to bleat about how we're intolerant. I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of the "victim complex" that some Northern OO members like to portray. I just don't believe in either giving them fuel for that particular fire - or allowing them any triumphalist nonsense. Therefore, if the Irish lodges are allowed march, avoiding sensitive areas - and assuming that they are going to behave in a civilised manner - then, fair enough, let them march. If they choose not to behave in a civilised manner - then future marches can be banned. (And the bill for damages should be forwarded to any lodge that causes trouble.) If any of the yobs from Northern Ireland show up, and decide to start trouble, then they should be flung in Mountjoy, and subjected to every charge the Gardaí can throw at them. I'm tempted to suggest that they should be escorted back across the border, preferably by the Irish army, and at gunpoint, but a: I doubt if that's possible, and b: The idea of them spending a while locked up, and subjected to justice, appeals to me.:D
Dubhlinner wrote: » The band had the brass neck to say they didn't know they were outside the church. They also claim they were just playing a beach boys song not the famine song. (the famine song is sung to the tune of said beach boys song) Guess what though. McCausland and DUP will be elected again and again. What does that say about the people who vote for them? I know some will say "the other side" are as bad they vote for ex-terrorists. Its a bit different though. I doubt you'd get anyone in sdlp SF or alliance defending an act of naked sectarianism like that. whereas uup tuv and dup seem to get more votes the more they steep themselves in bigotry
billybudd wrote: » Indeed, but there is such a thing as a catholic loyalist/unionist (just as there is protestant nationlists) and they are not welcome to march with the OO and feel as one to celebrate the 12th of july so why should we tolerate and facilitate a orgnaisation who exclude based on religious principles?Dont think the BOTB was about religious freedom, more to do with james reclaiming his throne in his homeland and the Irish supporting him to try and reclaim our country.
Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: » Dubhlinner, Sinn Fein are in no position to lecture anyone. They have a very nasty and dirty past which involved executions, bomb making and cold blooded murder of innocent civilians and even a Garda police officer. Only a Sinn Fein apologist would try and cover these war crimes up.
Noreen1 wrote: » I don't think BOTB was about religious freedom, either, but, the truth is, history tells you and I one story - and it's not the story that many Protestants believe. Look up the sermon given at the Donegal parade, by Reverend Gamble (I think!). I found it quite amazing - because it's not at all the way Irish, Catholic Nationalists see it. Now, before you take my head off - I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't. But, both he, and his audience, clearly do believe it. It's like some Unionists think flying the Red Hand is some kind of sign of Unionist supremacy. Actually, the Red Hand was originally the flag of the O'Neill clan. I suppose what I'm saying is that much of the truth of history is not always known, and each "side" tends not to tell any truths that don't make their own case look good. The question is: Will the truth be known and accepted by each side respecting the others rights - or will it be known if we keep up a tit for tat running battle? I think if we keep up the tit for tat, it will only add to the "victim":rolleyes: mentality of some Northern Unionists. If we don't - but insist on a respectful parade - then we both prove ourselves to be mature, reasonable people - and we give the lie to the rubbish that is spouted about discrimination against Protestants in Ireland.
Our man in Havana wrote: » It is actually quite a catchy tune.
Jimmy Garlic wrote: » So is Horst Wessel Lied.
Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: » billybudd, that is not a reason for people to try and cover up and even forget about the crimes which was committed by Republicans and even members of Sinn Fein. Everyone who has studied the history knows what happens. Young Loyalists aren't going to sit and take lectures from people in Sinn Fein who tried to annihilate their parents and grandparents 30+ years ago. Slamming the DUP for defending this band scene near the church is one thing but trying to use Sinn Fein as a shining example when it comes to sectarianism is another.
billybudd wrote: » Sorry maybe i haventh made myself clear becauce this thread is about the OO, i believe each person/s has the right to celebrate and believe in whatever they want and to respect that right once it does not cause hurt to those around, my problem is with the OO and notably their discrimination against catholics from joining their organisation and for the bigotry some hold dear and carry out without punishment.
Happyman42 wrote: » Keith's back! :rolleyes:
Noreen1 wrote: » I couldn't care less whether or not they allow Catholics to join their organisation. I doubt many Catholics would want to, anyway. What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches. That debacle outside the Church was disgusting - and even more disgusting was the blatant lies by the OO spokesman in an effort to cover it up/justify it. At the first hint of any behaviour like that in marches in the Republic, I'd be the first to call for them to be banned. But I will not get upset about them commemorating the 12th, because A: It's a historical fact, whether I like the fact that it happened, or not. and B: We did gain Independence, and Religious freedom. Finally, do you not think that banning the OO from marching here will affect the way some people may vote in the future about a United Ireland? I know if I was undecided, and someone told me that an organisation that I was a member of was restricted, I'd be more inclined to vote against the thing. In other words - we can't force bigotry out of the ranks of the OO by restricting them. But allowing them to march in Donegal has been a positive thing - and I think it could be in Dublin, too. We'll never know, if we don't try - and if they decide to make a mess of it - then we do have the option of banning the march from happening again, and bringing a criminal prosecution.
Chuck Stone wrote: » And already reported. Much like that band he's not happy unless he's trolling phantom enemies.
billybudd wrote: » I have no problem with the 12th being celebrated within the south of Ireland, i do have a problem with the OO celebrating it here because of their bigotry towards catholics. If they cant be inclusive not only should we shun them but people in the north should too, before WOO both religions lived tolerating each other.
Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: » billybudd, I don't see what exact point you are trying to make. Northern Ireland is a very peaceful place now. The problem is you still have intolerance of both traditions in Ireland. Green and Orange. It doesn't mean there isn't peace, it is just passive intolerance in many ways. This thread is a good example of this. The band video for example is wrong but the way people are trying to label this as what goes on during the 12th is simply nonsense and propaganda of the worst king. The vast majority of parades are perfectly peaceful and a good day out. It isn't the fault of the Protestant community that some elements within the Unionist tradition live in very backward areas in Belfast. And it is the same with Ardoyne and other Republican "areas". Seeing the footage of Ardoyne and the fighting amongst themselves tells you all you need to know. Young people coming out to be offended, would not be able to tell you who created the Tri Colour or what it means and just wanted a riot and a punch up amongst themselves. It is a poverty issue as much as anything sectarian. Trying to be shocked about Sectarianism when the actual government and political set up is institutionalised Sectarianism. Trying to think you can just get rid of it over 15 years is very naive and rather deluded. The Good Friday Agreement is a Sectarian agreement. It was a Sectarian carve up. The only thing it did was to bring peace to Northern Ireland for the vast majority of the year and stop people from being murdered and getting blown apart by bombs.
Noreen1 wrote: » There's more than one way to skin a cat. If protestants don't feel they need they OO to defend their religion, they're less likely to join it. This is just one way of achieving that.
Noreen1 wrote: » What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches. Members of the OO bend the rules to suit themselves, they do marry Catholics, attend catholic funerals etc. I would imagine it depends on what lodge you belong to.
Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: » Trying to be shocked about Sectarianism when the actual government and political set up is institutionalised Sectarianism. Trying to think you can just get rid of it over 15 years is very naive and rather deluded. The Good Friday Agreement is a Sectarian agreement. It was a Sectarian carve up. The only thing it did was to bring peace to Northern Ireland for the vast majority of the year and stop people from being murdered and getting blown apart by bombs.
Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: » No one said Sinn Fein haven't done a lot for peace in recent years Billybudd. You are complaining about Sectarianism in a country which its political set up is enshrined in Sectarianism. Why you call a fact bullsh*t is beyond me. Sinn Fein and the DUP just recently came under fire for carving up a Sectarian headcount when it came to housing. Perhaps you want to deny Sectarianism doesn't exist in Stormont but it does and most people know it does.
