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Hypocrites and "Animal lovers"

Scioch

I know a guy who's a vegetarian and self proclaimed animal lover. Always banging on about the poor old animals and watching those animal cop shows. Doesn't eat meat because he reckons its promoting unnecessary animal cruelty.

No problem with that even if I wouldnt agree. But, he owns a dog which spends 99% of its time in a tiny back garden. Brought for walks once or twice a week and left at home all day alone while himself is at work. He has it trained to beg, wait, sit and whatever else so he's put a lot of effort into forcing this dog to do what he wants it to do.

Here's a guy who cant stand animal cruelty, quite often gives out about people getting animals and not looking after them, wont eat meat so animals wont suffer. Yet it doesnt cross his mind for one second that owning, controlling and basically imprisoning a dog because he gets a kick out of it is wrong.

Why is it fine to own another animal, lock them up, force them to obey commands and use them whenever we are in the mood ? Whether its dog in a back garden who only gets a run when the owner is in the mood or a budgie circling a cage for years on end looking for an escape its wrong to imprison animals like this.

So can anyone who claims to love animals really care about animals when they own pets ? Or are they just hypocrites who put their own wants ahead of the welfare of an animal ? I'm sure owners wouldnt like to see anything bad happen to their pets but really you have just taken its life away and made it a slave to you for its entire existence. Do ya really care all that much ?

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GarIT

mattjack wrote: »

Ordinarily I would argue with Christmas, just out of boredom etc... but how in the name of Jayzus would a dog know its to be put down ?

I have no idea, the dog could fear loosing its food source because it know it can't feed itself, being put down was possibly a bad example but maybe dogs can communicate with each other and they know.

mattjack

GarIT wrote: »

I have no idea, the dog could fear loosing its food source because it know it can't feed itself, being put down was possibly a bad example but maybe dogs can communicate with each other and they know.

Okaaaaaay........

Jen Pigs Fly

Shenshen wrote: »

*lol The people at our local pet shop know us by name, we're the ones buying 2 60kg bags of Royal Canin for cats every month

60Kg bags? Sure it's not 15kg? :P

mattjack

Shenshen wrote: »

*lol The people at our local pet shop know us by name, we're the ones buying 2 60kg bags of Royal Canin for cats every month

A 60kg bag ? I buy 15 kg bags and can just carry them.

Scioch

war_child wrote: »

I just had to comment on the original comment ...Firstly having an animal is not holding the animal against its will especially dogs ..as dogs are reliant animals unlike cats who can hunt for their food dogs rely on us (as responsible pet owners) to supply them with their food.

How is it not holding them against their will ? Part of owning a dog is keeping it locked up. Of course its against their will, dogs have evolved to hunt and run not sit in back gardens.

Secondly FORCING (as you so ignorantly put it) an animal to sit, lie down fetch and whatever other commands he can make the dog do in my book something to be praised for, as hes obviously taken a lot of time out to teach his dog those commands.better to have a dog that can be controlled when around strange people indicates qualities of a good and responsible owner...

It is forcing them to obey, they dont want to sit or stand or beg they want food and that basic want is exploited in an effort to better control them. I'm sure its great to be able to control them but if its wrong to have them in the first place as I think it is then training them shouldnt come into it.

Thirdly any animal that has any kind of freedom be it a back garden one or 2 walks a week is still a hell of alot better than most rescue dogs which are either tied up or forced to live in wrecks of cars or even worse cramped cage conditions without food or water.

Same argument as "shur I dont kick my dog half as hard as that guy".

I say all this as i am a dog owner and every point you made about your friend run along the lines of my situation. My dog is in the field everyday from10 am till 2 pm and let back out at 6 till 10 ....he is only brought in for food ...i also spent many hours training my dog to sit, lie down , roll over and beg ..as he is a boxer he is a working dog and loves showing off infront of people what he can do ...he knows if he does it he gets a treat ...he was also a rescue dog and wen he was found was tied to a caravan and left for dead ...the dog he was wen brought to the shelter is a far cry from the dog he is now. Altho i am not a vegetarian i do watch the animal programmes on tele and i am disgusted by the way most of the people on those shows treat there animals ...and for you to even consider comparing those people who genuinly go out of their way to harm their pets to your friends situation is both ignorant and disrespectful ..I wonder what he would do if he ever found out what you were saying Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Why do you own a pet ? Because you want to own a pet. Thats it, its the only reason. I's selfish and ignorant to think it should be fine to own a pet knowing the majority of them are mistreated. Thats whats ignorant.

Jen Pigs Fly

mattjack wrote: »

A 60kg bag ? I buy 15 kg bags and can just carry them.

No such thing as a 60kg bag, Royal Canin's limit it 15kgs in retails outlets.

mattjack

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

No such thing as a 60kg bag, Royal Canin's limit it 15kgs in retails outlets.

I know, a 60kg bag is huge.15kg is the size of a large bag of potatoes..

Scioch

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

The shop I work in has no animals. We do not sell them on principal.
I went through an intensive 40 hour training course just to work in a retail shop, and am going for my pet nutrition status soon enough. We never sell anything to someone who does not know how to use it/how it works/etc.

I do have the moral high ground

Apologies.

wonderfulname

Hmm... Agreeing with the concept of raising animals for food when meat is not necessary in the human diet and uses considerably more resources than the alternative yet disagreeing with keeping a domesticated, dependant animal as a companion, what shining logic.

I have no issues with either by the way, because the animals are happy as a Larry in a normal domesticated environment and whilst there's a global food shortage, there ain't an Irish one, and we won't see that particular inequality sorted any time soon.

Also; Mmm... Bacon...

Shenshen

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

60Kg bags? Sure it's not 15kg? :P

Which ones are the really large ones they always keep on the bottom shelf?
Could be 40kg, I can't remember now (and can't be bothered to get down to the kitchen to check;)), usually it takes two of us to lift one.

Jen Pigs Fly

mattjack wrote: »

I know, a 60kg bag is huge.15kg is the size of a large bag of potatoes..

was shifting those around today, the 15kg royal canin and red mills bags ... I've the arms of a body builder

Jen Pigs Fly

Shenshen wrote: »

Which ones are the really large ones they always keep on the bottom shelf?
Could be 40kg, I can't remember now (and can't be bothered to get down to the kitchen to check;)), usually it takes two of us to lift one.

defo 15kg

Shenshen

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

defo 15kg

Apologies for exaggerating, then. I honestly haven't checked in ages, we usually just dive for the huge bags on the bottom shelf.

GarIT

wonderfulname wrote: »

Hmm... Agreeing with the concept of raising animals for food when meat is not necessary in the human diet and uses considerably more resources than the alternative yet disagreeing with keeping a domesticated, dependant animal as a companion, what shining logic.

I doubt that we would have enough food in Ireland if we had no meat, no milk and nothing that is made from milk.

shopaholic01

Well looked after pets cannot be compered to slaves. A dog should not be left alone all day - they're social animals. A second dog would provide companionship for the dog in your example.

The main problem is people keeping big dogs when they only have a small garden, especially if they are not exercised a couple of times a day. Dogs need attention and stimulation - that cute puppy will quickly grow into a high maintenance adult dog.

The Celtic tiger has left us with a legacy of rare and expensive breeds being kept as pets. I know people who chose a breed because no one else had one.

Mongrels make better pets, and as they're not inbred they have fewer genetic defects and health problem. They are usually more intelligent too, so I can't understand someone who pays for a dog, when pounds are full of these adorable mutts.

Dogs and cats are carnivores so I can understand a vegetarian feeding his pet meat. I would have a bigger issue if he wore leather or ate food containing animal derived ingredients.

Most people do not understand how to care for pets properly and a lot of animals are mistreated due to ignorance as opposed to lack of love for the animal.

Pets are often better company than people, and enjoy human contact and affection.

Jen Pigs Fly

Shenshen wrote: »

Apologies for exaggerating, then. I honestly haven't checked in ages, we usually just dive for the huge bags on the bottom shelf.

Nah you're grand haha, they start to feel like 60kgs after a few days moving them from place to place - new offers coming in and the likes so a lot of moving, have to go in on my day off just to put out prices :rolleyes:

Shenshen

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Nah you're grand haha, they start to feel like 60kgs after a few days moving them from place to place - new offers coming in and the likes so a lot of moving, have to go in on my day off just to put out prices :rolleyes:

Any offers on cat food?

grey_so_what

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Nah you're grand haha, they start to feel like 60kgs after a few days moving them from place to place - new offers coming in and the likes so a lot of moving, have to go in on my day off just to put out prices :rolleyes:

Get a hugh amount of help and respect from the lovely people who work in pet shops, fair play to them....:)

El Guapo!

LordSmeg wrote: »

]

.....dogs have evolved to hunt and run not sit in back gardens.......

Dogs have not evolved to hunt. Quite the opposite.
If you look at the history of the domestic dog, about 80% of the breeds that are around today didn't exist 100 years ago. Dogs have been basically engineered by humans, for humans. Dogs are reliant on us and most wouldn't survive in the wild without us.
Just wanted to clear that up.

Shint0

When you look at those countries which have large populations of street dogs roaming free, those countries generally have poorer records of civil, social and political rights with some of the poorest of their population living in poverty and uninhabitable conditions.

wonderfulname

GarIT wrote: »

wonderfulname wrote: »

Hmm... Agreeing with the concept of raising animals for food when meat is not necessary in the human diet and uses considerably more resources than the alternative yet disagreeing with keeping a domesticated, dependant animal as a companion, what shining logic.

I doubt that we would have enough food in Ireland if we had no meat, no milk and nothing that is made from milk.

Hint: you put the land to alternate uses, meat and dairy require more land and water than tillage, we'd have more food, not less, if everybody went veggie, although given that we already export the vast majority of what we produce that's not an issue.

Stop digging, your position is completely nonsensical.

Scioch

Dean09 wrote: »

Dogs have not evolved to hunt. Quite the opposite.
If you look at the history of the domestic dog, about 80% of the breeds that are around today didn't exist 100 years ago. Dogs have been basically engineered by humans, for humans. Dogs are reliant on us and most wouldn't survive in the wild without us.
Just wanted to clear that up.

They have been bred for different purposes but they havent evolved to do that. They evolved as pack animals which survived by hunting. You can still see that if a several domesticated dogs get together, its a regular problem in rural areas. They hook up and go hunt, sometimes remaining feral and sometimes going back to their homes in the morning.

Millions of years of evolution isnt outdone with a few generations of breeding.

Jen Pigs Fly

Shenshen wrote: »

Any offers on cat food?

Yes believe it or not, ill be in early tomorrow I can let you know what our cat offers are through PM - think it's only Hills however, Royal Canin offer finished this month

We could be shifting a few royal canin though!

Jen Pigs Fly

grey_so_what wrote: »

Get a hugh amount of help and respect from the lovely people who work in pet shops, fair play to them....:)

At our place, employees are picked because of our love of animals and our knowledge of them, we want to make sure that we provide a good service to the community and their pets, we're not just out to make a quick buck which some people seem to think.

I have often discouraged people from buying something expensive because I know it would not suit their animal, even though it would have effected the store's average/etc we prefer that people do right by their animals.

Scioch

wonderfulname wrote: »

Hint: you put the land to alternate uses, meat and dairy require more land and water than tillage, we'd have more food, not less, if everybody went veggie, although given that we already export the vast majority of what we produce that's not an issue.

Stop digging, your position is completely nonsensical.

Easy as that is it ? Stop farming animals and start growing something ? I'd like to hear a more informed view of it as I'm not clued in enough to know the full scale of what it would take or if it would be possible. Clearly neither are you. The role that livestock plays in farming isnt limited to meat going into the market. And it wouldnt be possible to simply replace it by growing something else.

Gummy Panda

wonderfulname wrote: »

Hint: you put the land to alternate uses, meat and dairy require more land and water than tillage, we'd have more food, not less, if everybody went veggie, although given that we already export the vast majority of what we produce that's not an issue.

Stop digging, your position is completely nonsensical.

But I want protein with a decent amino acid profile

Shenshen

LordSmeg wrote: »

Easy as that is it ? Stop farming animals and start growing something ? I'd like to hear a more informed view of it as I'm not clued in enough to know the full scale of what it would take or if it would be possible. Clearly neither are you. The role that livestock plays in farming isnt limited to meat going into the market. And it wouldnt be possible to simply replace it by growing something else.

Well, you couln't switch over overnight... You need different kind of machinery, different storage facilities, and a lot of crops take more that a year before bearing any fruit. And you would of course you would need to train farmers.
That said, the climate in Ireland woul be well suited for most crops, as would the soil I think.

Darkginger

Many areas of Ireland wouldn't be suitable for arable farming - try growing wheat halfway up a mountain where sheep happily roam....

shopaholic01

This is probably true:

It is a sobering thought that animals could do without man,
yet man would find it almost impossible to do without animals.
[SIZE=-1]Animals, Men and Morals[/SIZE]

Shenshen

Darkginger wrote: »

Many areas of Ireland wouldn't be suitable for arable farming - try growing wheat halfway up a mountain where sheep happily roam....

Wheat isn't the only crop, though.
Many areas in Ireland that are now used for grazing sheep would in the past have been used for growing crops, sheep weren't always this prevalent.