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Client Sitting in...

CyberDave

I am a Graphic Designer and despite what people think, it's not part of our job description to have a client(s) sit with us as we design. The client supplies a brief and we revert a few days later with a design.

I my current job, Client sit-ins have been happening more and more. I have to basically be a Mac Puppet for the day, a full 8 hours in some cases. It is extremely frustrating, uncomfortable and nerve wracking for me, not to mention a complete waste of time, as far more could be achieved in the same time scale working from a brief. Lots of time spent googling for images, which the client could easily do himself and chopping and changing.

I really can't handle this and it hasn't been a part of any other Graphic Design jobs I have worked in. I would pull as sicky, but it's only prolonging the agony. As far as I can see, these clients have been told this is OK in the past and think it's perfectly acceptable to work like this. It's probably costing them a bomb.

My question is, am I going above my station by complaining about this to my boss. I really don't think it's fair, as the boss is probably charging him more to sit in, at the expense of my sanity.

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Gloomtastic!

Do you know the client is paying more? Why would the client pay more to sit beside you?

CyberDave

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Do you know the client is paying more? Why would the client pay more to sit beside you?

I don't know for sure. If not, he should be, as it takes three times longer to design anything when you have the client sitting looking at you doing it. :mad:

Mrs OBumble

CyberDave wrote: »

I am a Graphic Designer and despite what people think, it's not part of our job description to have a client(s) sit with us as we design. The client supplies a brief and we revert a few days later with a design.

That may be the way you've worked in the past, but it's not necessarily the way it should be - or the way that gets results that the client is actually happy with.

Scenario: the client supplies a brief, you do a design and come up with something that meets the brief - but somehow it pushes some hot button with the client that wasn't explicitly covered in the brief. They hate it, but have to pay anyway 'cos it meets the spec. So they end up giving the brief to another company and paying twice.

CyberDave

JustMary wrote: »

That may be the way you've worked in the past, but it's not necessarily the way it should be - or the way that gets results that the client is actually happy with.

Scenario: the client supplies a brief, you do a design and come up with something that meets the brief - but somehow it pushes some hot button with the client that wasn't explicitly covered in the brief. They hate it, but have to pay anyway 'cos it meets the spec. So they end up giving the brief to another company and paying twice.

This is how it should be. I have worked in 5 different jobs, and in 4 out of the 5, it was policy to keep client sit-ins to a minimum. Briefs were preferred. It is by far, the most efficient way.

If the client is unhappy with the initial option, a second version is produced, maybe even another, until the client is happy. If they don't communicate properly in their brief what they need, it's their fault. However, if the designer goes off on a tangent and produces a design without taking into account what they have been told, then he/she is a bad designer or a heedless one.

biko

Is a problem with having them sitting in is that they change their mind suddenly or alter the brief?
Or do you just don't like like having them there (which I can totally understand)?

CyberDave

biko wrote: »

Is a problem with having them sitting in is that they change their mind suddenly or alter the brief?
Or do you just don't like like having them there (which I can totally understand)?

Both of the above, along with numerous others, among them.

You cannot relax into your regular work patterns.
They question you about stuff on screen like measurements, guides and grids, if they'll print (they don't)
Small decisions, like choosing whether a font is regular or bold, can take up to 15 minutes.
Searching for images on Google.
Typing text, then retyping text, when it doesn't say what they need it to say.

I could go on and on...

but43r

Change a job if you don't like it?

CyberDave

but43r wrote: »

Change a job if you don't like it?

Yea. Great response... I have been looking for a new jOb for the last 6 months. They're not that easy come by...

growler

I've never heard of a client sitting in on a designer on any kind of project, sounds like a recipe for a long drawn out disaster and I can't imagine what kind of client can afford to spend days not doing their real job while doing so.

Just speak to the boss and explain that you could probably speed the whole process up, making more profit in less time, by coming up with some concepts in advance. I always took the view that the client was paying for expertise, if they knew **** about design they'd be designers.

CyberDave

growler wrote: »

I've never heard of a client sitting in on a designer on any kind of project, sounds like a recipe for a long drawn out disaster and I can't imagine what kind of client can afford to spend days not doing their real job while doing so.

Just speak to the boss and explain that you could probably speed the whole process up, making more profit in less time, by coming up with some concepts in advance. I always took the view that the client was paying for expertise, if they knew **** about design they'd be designers.

Me neither. I know if I paid someone to do a job, there wouldn't be much point in me sitting looking at them do it. Kind of defeats the purpose. I have had the word with boss, but the client insists, as he has been doing it with other designers for the last 5 years. This decision was originally allowed to happen by a non-designer. If the boss had any idea of how torturous it is, he wouldn't agree to it.

biko

Sounds like a nightmare alright.

Mrs OBumble

A quick google tells me that there are at least some people apply Agile principles to graphic design - eg http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/7215/which-are-the-most-prominent-creative-thinking-techniques-methodologies

One of the principles of Agile is that you have continuous client involvement - and yes, ideally that means they sit in your office (or you in theirs).

CyberDave

JustMary wrote: »

A quick google tells me that there are at least some people apply Agile principles to graphic design - eg http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/7215/which-are-the-most-prominent-creative-thinking-techniques-methodologies

One of the principles of Agile is that you have continuous client involvement - and yes, ideally that means they sit in your office (or you in theirs).

I know for sure that there are studios that would never allow this to happen. If the client asked for it to happen they would be politely refused or offered to sit for an hour... From my experience there seems to be a huge difference between a Design Agency and a Print Company. The Agencies are less likely to allow this to happen, whereas Print Companies see it as the norm. It just isn't productive. Yes the client gets what they want design wise, but after 10 hours. Even with 2 redesigns you would probably get the same amount of work done in half the time.

[Deleted User]

CyberDave wrote: »

I know for sure that there are studios that would never allow this to happen. If the client asked for it to happen they would be politely refused or offered to sit for an hour... From my experience there seems to be a huge difference between a Design Agency and a Print Company. The Agencies are less likely to allow this to happen, whereas Print Companies see it as the norm. It just isn't productive. Yes the client gets what they want design wise, but after 10 hours. Even with 2 redesigns you would probably get the same amount of work done in half the time.

I think then, you should go work for them as your studio is obviously not one of them. Different places work in different ways, at least you'll know now to ask in the interview how they operate.

Colonel Panic

JustMary wrote: »

A quick google tells me that there are at least some people apply Agile principles to graphic design - eg http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/7215/which-are-the-most-prominent-creative-thinking-techniques-methodologies

One of the principles of Agile is that you have continuous client involvement - and yes, ideally that means they sit in your office (or you in theirs).

Continuous client involvement does not mean having the client sitting in while you do your work have them looking over your shoulder directing proceedings.

CyberDave

Pappa Dolla wrote: »

I think then, you should go work for them as your studio is obviously not one of them. Different places work in different ways, at least you'll know now to ask in the interview how they operate.

If only it was that easy.

strandroad

JustMary wrote: »

That may be the way you've worked in the past, but it's not necessarily the way it should be - or the way that gets results that the client is actually happy with.

Scenario: the client supplies a brief, you do a design and come up with something that meets the brief - but somehow it pushes some hot button with the client that wasn't explicitly covered in the brief. They hate it, but have to pay anyway 'cos it meets the spec. So they end up giving the brief to another company and paying twice.

JustMary, it is definitely not a standard or even acceptable procedure to have clients sitting in during work. Even with Agile, meetings are set up outside the design process and you're working on wireframes/mockups. I've never seen or heard about a situation similar to what the OP describes, his productivity must be down a lot and his stress levels through the roof (judging from what clients can be like in meetings even, not to mention breathing down his neck).
Clearly OP's management prioritises pleasing clients over the quality of the work/productive working environment.

whippet

mhge wrote: »

Clearly OP's management prioritises pleasing clients over the quality of the work/productive working environment.

Am I missing something or is it not the client who is paying for job to be done?

The client should be the priority, and in a market climate where every penny counts pleasing clients is priority.

It seems that you don't see the frustration from the client perspective, giving a brief, work comes back .. look at making changes, wait an other couple of days .. second draft comes back, another couple of changes, third draft .. and on and on ..

Client sits in and vast majority of work is done on the first draft !!

You are probably paid for your daily work regardless of how many hours it takes .. might not be the nicest working environment, but then again needs must.

Colonel Panic

You guys just aren't getting how creative jobs work. It's not just about having the client sitting there telling you what you want and the designer just banging things out in photoshop ad hoc.

I understand you're all playing devil's advocate here but I don't get why it's even up for debate when really the only advice the OP should be getting is to talk (not complain) to his employer about the impact of the issue and if it's not sorted, looking for a new job sucking it up in the mean time.

strandroad

whippet wrote: »

Am I missing something or is it not the client who is paying for job to be done?

Yes they do, and they provide briefs and get intermediary stages to sign off on or adjust. If the client could do the work equally well as the designer, all they need would be a quick technology course and they could do it themselves. If the feel they need more frequent check-ins, this is what Agile is for, but they don't get to attempt to do the work.
It doesn't do anyone any favours if you have a client who is breathing down your neck, asking what does this icon mean, whether the rulers will print. The work will be of worse quality, it will actually take longer (try doing something creative, implementing it and explaining/justifying at the same time, or going back and forth with corrections) and the employee will be worn out. The employer may win short term by charging more, but they will become known for poor quality and the designer will jump ship at the first opportunity, this one and the next one, and the next.

seamus

I don't work in design, but I do build web applications on occassion so have fiddled with page layouts and the like, and I know full well what it's like to have someone sitting beside you while you try to come up with ideas to satisfy their requirements.

The simple fact is that not only is it uncomfortable to have someone sitting right beside you, watching you work, it also stifles your ability to think creatively and so produces inferior results. As mhge says, you end up spending half your time saying, "Hang on, I'm just trying something. No, that didn't work, wait, let me try this. What? You'll see now in a sec if it works. Why am I doing that? Just trying stuff out. Yeah, that doesn't work". And so on. Many people get the impression that designers just throw stuff together, so when they see you constantly making changes and undoing them, they can get the impression that you don't know what you're doing.

I don't think it can do any harm to raise it with your boss. However, I would be careful not to word it as a "complaint" but rather as a suggestion to increase productivity/efficiency.

Make it clear that having the client constantly present massively slows down the process and suggest introducing a new process whereby you do the major work over a few drafts with back-and-forth emails to the client, and then do the finishing work with the client. Would that help cut down the time wasting?

However ultimately your boss might be well aware that his clients are paying through the nose for this and won't want to change it.
If that's the case, then it may be possible to suggest ways to make the setup more comfortable for both you and the client; My desk is pretty big - probably 1.6m x 1.0m. I'm uncomfortable with someone sitting right beside me, however I could comfortably sit where I am and a client could sit at the end of the desk, and still see my screen. The client could even have a second screen. I would find this a quite amenable setup because I would still have the room to work without feeling smothered for an entire day.
Would something like that work for you?

LegacyUser

whippet wrote: »

It seems that you don't see the frustration from the client perspective, giving a brief, work comes back .. look at making changes, wait an other couple of days .. second draft comes back, another couple of changes, third draft .. and on and on ..

Any half decent designer knows what questions to ask a clients and knows what information they need from a client to get the work done. You very rarely have a situation were there are endless retakes of a project. Contracts will state how many retakes a client gets if they are not happy and it is made clear to them what they get for their money and what they will pay extra for. I've worked in animation and design for years and always found when you give clients a clear contract that states how many retakes they get [standard is 3] they are usually far better at giving all the relevant information up front and getting the project finished very painlessly with few edits and it normally works out cheaper for the client as it will be a set price for the project. If a client wants to sit beside me for the whole process then it will be hourly rate they will be charged and that normally ends up costing them alot more. Clients get caught up in minor issues and make you waste hours on pointless areas of the project and asking irrelevant questions. They want to see it in this font and that font and this colour and that colour and nearly always you end up doing it how you stated at the very start but taking an extra 2 days of pointless clicky work to get the same result.

whippet wrote: »

Client sits in and vast majority of work is done on the first draft !!

I've never had a project go through quickly with the client present. It has the opposite effect of dragging everything down to a crawl and they are always the projects that look the worse and don't end up in the portfolio. It might not sound nice to say but the client does not know what they want, they have things they need for the project to have [wither it be for tv, print, or web or product] but frankly if they knew what they wanted and how to do it they'd do it themselves and some do try that. I've seen enough horrific graphic design projects from people who thought all they needed to do was go get a copy of gimp and they could do it just as well as a professional designer.

You pay a professional because they are that a professional and should be able to go off and do the work. You don't sit on top of a plumber and question everything he is doing do you?

To the OP some companies do work that way, it sucks as a creative having to do it that way but look at it as a pay check for now and keep looking for a new job.

Bandana boy

He who pays the piper calls the tune.
If this is what this client wants and they feel more comfortable giving your firm their business when they get to guide creation then I am not sure I see the harm.
Maybe the customer is poor at writing a spec and does not want work which matches the spec but is not what he actually wants.
After all it is not unreasonable or unlikely for a firm to want your product/service and not be competent in the machinations that create your product or service.
I know i give directions to my barber on what to do with my hair ,but I will be pretty pissed at him if that delivers a bad haircut.

Maybe he is buying not just work that matches a spec but ideas on how to create a final product.
Think of it as a waiter whose primary function is to take and deliver your order but some customers also want to be told what to eat, educated on the menu ,the preparation process and to understand why a dish works particularly well. This is clearly more work and a less efficient process for the waiter but it can keep the customer happier.

While I sympathise that it can be uncomfortable and less productive for you personally being watched so closely ,I would be careful kicking up too much of a fuss.We all have days where our work would be easier if those damn customers would stop ruining things for us but they are after all the life blood of your organisation and you cease to have an employable purpose without them.If you are seen as being difficult and inflexible here it could have future repercussions.
Maybe try engage more with the client ,play this situation right and you could end up with a strong advocate for you and your work that could have a positive impact on your career long term.