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What's your favourite "non-standard" English phrase or word?

Janey_Mac

Sick of the snobbery about people saying "I seen" and "I done"?

Time to ooh and aah over the varied and interesting ways people speak English instead!

To add to "I seen" and "I done" I offer "I clen" as the past tense of to clean.

Example: "I clen me room, mam! Can I go out?"

I first heard this in the 1990s in North County Dublin, but only ever in one family. Anyone else heard it?

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[Deleted User]

Every single word is non standard to varying degrees. English is not French.

newmug

Yizzer. Plural of "your", as in plural of you plural. Eg. "Patrick, Bridie, yizzer dinners's is ready"

Janey_Mac

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Every single word is non standard to varying degrees. English is not French.

I know, but at the same time there is a broadly identifiable "standard" dialect in most English-speaking countries. One dialect that due to accidents of history is privileged above the others as "correct". Not saying it's better, just saying it's the one you're most likely to hear from newsreaders in the course of their duties.

Janey_Mac

I also really like the sign in Dublin Airport (Terminal 1) near baggage reclaim, which says,
"Have you the right bags?"

I get a giggle at the thought of how wrong that must seem to people coming in from places like the US or England.

[Deleted User]

Janey_Mac wrote: »

I know, but at the same time there is a broadly identifiable "standard" dialect in most English-speaking countries. One dialect that due to accidents of history is privileged above the others as "correct". Not saying it's better, just saying it's the one you're most likely to hear from newsreaders in the course of their duties.

Yes but the media is wholly different to most normal regular peoples speech. There are more widely used dialects and these tend to become used in TV/Radio and/or Academia.

Janey_Mac

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Yes but the media is wholly different to most normal regular peoples speech. There are more widely used dialects and these tend to become used in TV/Radio and/or Academia.

This doesn't negate my point that this (not too widely used) dialect is perceived as being the standard.

Huh.

I think we basically agree with each other but are arguing largely over mis-matched wording... I think it's acceptable to label the privileged dialect "standard" since it's perceived as such by many people, even people who speak other dialects. I don't think it should be the only one spoken, or that it is a standard to which all speakers should aspire; I just think "standard" describes its position and function well.

[Deleted User]

"standard" perhaps but not a Standard in the most common usage of the word.

It is not taught across the board in Irish schools and it is not used across the board on TV or Radio for example. It is not codified anywhere and there is no meetings to discuss the standard.

It is a semi-natural not to widely used (is key here as you said) dialect used in academia and news dialect but not a standard imo.

I think the fact we have to go around calling it "standard" with quotes sums it up quite well. Try telling anyone they do not speak standard English even in broadcasts or academia and you will not be kindly regarded.

Janey_Mac

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

"standard" perhaps but not a Standard in the most common usage of the word.

It is not taught across the board in Irish schools and it is not used across the board on TV or Radio for example. It is not codified anywhere and there is no meetings to discuss the standard.

It is a semi-natural not to widely used (is key here as you said) dialect used in academia and news dialect but not a standard imo.

I think the fact we have to go around calling it "standard" with quotes sums it up quite well. Try telling anyone they do not speak standard English even in broadcasts or academia and you will not be kindly regarded.

Ha! I've tried that on occasion and been et out of it!

I see your point about the difference between Standard (as in Caighdeán Oifigiúl) and "standard" or even standard.

I would be inclined to say that insofar as any type of English is taught in Irish schools, "standard" Irish English is. Schoolbooks aren't written in any regional dialect, though (dim and distant memories of things like Ann and Barry and "Sonas" magazine in primary school here) I seem to recall that some of them had some distinctively Irish features in the language used, if only in quoted dialogue. Maybe it's different now, but I'd have been told "I done" was wrong if I wrote it in my homework, and- depending on the teacher- probably corrected if I uttered it in the classroom. But that kind of teaching is haphazard and as you say, there isn't any official codification, thank heavens. It's linguistic anarchy!

What would you consider a reasonable name for the dialect under discussion? Most dialects in Ireland can be named after the region they're prevalent in, but this dialect is supra-regional.

[Deleted User]

English has nothing like Irish which in turn has nothing like French, that is my main point.

This "standard" can be called whatever you want as it is sparsely used and not tied to any area or time. I am not even sure it exists as you describe it in Ireland anyway.

There is a very vague something I could possibly point to as this "standard" but nothing like in America or the mid atlantic for example.

Supermensch

I'm quite partial to 'do be', as in 'you do be in the shower only five minutes before the water goes cold'.

Janey_Mac

Supermensch wrote: »

I'm quite partial to 'do be', as in 'you do be in the shower only five minutes before the water goes cold'.

Or if you really want to go to town on it: "You do be only after getting into the shower and it goes cold on you!"

Supermensch

Janey_Mac wrote: »

Or if you really want to go to town on it: "You do be only after getting into the shower and it goes cold on you!"

"...So it does!"

[Deleted User]

Look at ye two, havin a laugh.

newmug

Whats wrong with "do be"? Or does be?

As in "It does be raining on Saturdays". I would have thought that was standard / Standard / "standard", or indeed (standard):P

Janey_Mac

newmug wrote: »

Whats wrong with "do be"? Or does be? As in "It does be raining on Saturdays". I would have thought that was standard / Standard / "standard", or indeed (standard):P

It's fairly unexceptional in Ireland alright, but it isn't used in other countries at all.

franc 91

I have a slight suspicion that this is the influence of Gaeilge on Irish English (I nearly put my foot in my mouth by saying interference)
I wouldn't mind somebody helping me out trying to understand some of the 'Dublinois' dialogue in Behan's plays - it must be somebody's standard anyway.

slowburner

franc 91 wrote: »

I have a slight suspicion that this is the influence of Gaeilge on Irish English (I nearly put my foot in my mouth by saying interference)
I wouldn't mind somebody helping me out trying to understand some of the 'Dublinois' dialogue in Behan's plays - it must be somebody's standard anyway.

Ah here, have ya the quotes for us to be helping ya out?

_blank_

Janey_Mac wrote: »

What would you consider a reasonable name for the dialect under discussion? Most dialects in Ireland can be named after the region they're prevalent in, but this dialect is supra-regional.

Hiberno-English?

Janey_Mac

Des wrote: »

Hiberno-English?

But that covers all the dialects in the country.

P. Breathnach

Janey_Mac wrote: »

But that covers all the dialects in the country.

Just as "English" describes all versions of English, but in certain contexts is understood to refer to Standard English (and no, I'm not interested in getting into a mud-wrestling contest with conor.hogan.2; I'll use words as I want to use them, and I think my meaning is sufficiently clear).

You might go for Standard Hiberno-English, even though it might annoy some pedants (or maybe because it might annoy them).

Janey_Mac

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just as "English" describes all versions of English, but in certain contexts is understood to refer to Standard English (and no, I'm not interested in getting into a mud-wrestling contest with conor.hogan.2; I'll use words as I want to use them, and I think my meaning is sufficiently clear).

You might go for Standard Hiberno-English, even though it might annoy some pedants (or maybe because it might annoy them).

I'll go with Standard Hiberno-English if conor.hogan.2 agrees to start a new thread for us to debate it!

I'm enjoying it thoroughly but it should have its own home.

Janey_Mac

franc 91 wrote: »

I have a slight suspicion that this is the influence of Gaeilge on Irish English (I nearly put my foot in my mouth by saying interference)
I wouldn't mind somebody helping me out trying to understand some of the 'Dublinois' dialogue in Behan's plays - it must be somebody's standard anyway.

]

It could well be; Irish has a form of the present tense similar to "does be VERBing" (though it's more like "bes VERBing".)

Give us Behan's Dublinese, I'm sure you'll get translators here!

[Deleted User]

People can use whatever words they want, but calling it a Standard is pretty odd considering there is none.

"standard" in quotes is closer to reality. The "standard" is not used across the board in Ireland on TV, Radio or Academia but it can and is used often.

Mostly semantics and mostly just annoyed when people use this "standard" so they can say "that's not standard English, you are speaking English incorrectly" which should never be done.

P. Breathnach

"Standard English" is a standard term. As is "Non-standard English", which supplanted "Substandard English" many years ago.

tac foley

My dad, a Cork man, never lost either his accent or his way of speaking English. He would have said '...raining OF a saturday' and '...he does be......', but my favourite was his description of any decrepit article - 'hanging to pieces'.

My Welsh wife could not understand a single word he spoke to her - a great pity, as he had a lot of useful things to say.

tac

tac foley

Janey_Mac wrote: »

It's fairly unexceptional in Ireland alright, but it isn't used in other countries at all, at all.

Fixed it.

tac

slowburner

tac foley wrote: »

My dad, a Cork man, never lost either his accent or his way of speaking English. He would have said '...raining OF a saturday' and '...he does be......', but my favourite was his description of any decrepit article - 'hanging to pieces'.

My Welsh wife could not understand a single word he spoke to her - a great pity, as he had a lot of useful things to say.

tac

A pity in more ways than one.
Hiberno-English has always petulantly dragged its feet, and stubbornly refused to let go of its unique idiom, it's also the reason this little island has produced such original writers.
Well, that...combined with the fact that our neighbours had a fairly strong linguistic influence.

'I hear Páideen died.'
- 'What did he die of?'
'He died of a Saturday.'

spacetweek

Janey_Mac wrote: »

I also really like the sign in Dublin Airport (Terminal 1) near baggage reclaim, which says,
"Have you the right bags?"

I get a giggle at the thought of how wrong that must seem to people coming in from places like the US or England.

I am definitely missing something here! Is that non-standard? In what way?

I've had times where I've had to explain to Irish people that a certain phrase or word is only used here. They often don't know, sometimes I don't either.

spacetweek

newmug wrote: »

Whats wrong with "do be"? Or does be? As in "It does be raining on Saturdays". I would have thought that was standard / Standard / "standard", or indeed (standard):P

Because there is no present habitual tense in English, Irish people innovated one, most likely due to Irish influence as has been pointed out.
I love it when a language has a way of saying something that English doesn't have.
In French there are two words for 'yes', 'oui' and 'si', depending on whether you are answering yes to an affirmative question or contradicting a negative one.
Also in English we used to have formal and informal versions of 'you' ('thou' and 'you') but all 3 (formal, informal singular, plural) are merged now and people tie themselves in knots trying to invent them again:
You all
You guys
Yous
Yiz
All of you
etc.

newmug

^^^^^ If "thou" was the formal singular, what was the formal plural?