Andrewf20 wrote: » Hey folks, Just reading Genesis 3. Im interested as to how people make sense of this one? How could she see the apple if her eyes were not opened yet?When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
philologos wrote: » You're ignoring why it is a problem. It isn't unbelief that keeps us from the Kingdom of Heaven in and of itself.
philologos wrote: » You're ignoring why it is a problem. It isn't unbelief that keeps us from the Kingdom of Heaven in and of itself. The Lord God created us, in His image, that we are to reflect His glory in His creation. He in His loving rule gave us commandments that we might follow after Him, these commandments were given for our own good rather than our own detriment. God as Creator has full authority to do this, and indeed He does this because He cares for us and He loves us and wants us to do what is good. Man decided to reject the Lord by sinning against Him, man decided that he wanted to break away from God and do things their own way. As a result of their rejection of God, they did what was clearly wrong, and fell into sin, choosing to follow their own selfish desires above and beyond God. As a result of breaking God's commandments they deserve punishment, they deserve to be condemned. They are guilty under God's commandment. God in His mercy, sent Jesus Christ into the world to live, teach, and ultimately to be crucified in our place, so that we might be forgiven. That we might have a new relationship with God. That we can be forgiven, and live for Him is a grace upon grace. We deserve to be sent to hell. I deserve to go to hell. The good news is that God loves us enough not to send us there if we're willing to truly repent. The good news is by Jesus, we can have eternal life rather than eternal condemnation. If we are still stubbornly unwilling to believe and trust in Jesus, we are condemned. Not because of unbelief - but because our sin will remain unpunished - therefore without Jesus we must bear it ourselves. Hell exists because God is good. It is because God is profoundly angry at wrongdoing, and it is because God cannot tolerate what is evil to enter the Kingdom of God. It is because God is righteous, that He is just. He's just insofar as He desires punishment for wrongdoing. He's merciful insofar as He has already sent Jesus into the world to pay this penalty. One day, Jesus will return to judge the world, Jesus is coming back, and on that day, He will rightfully judge the world. Will He say "Good and faithful servant. Come and share in your masters happiness"? Or will one be thrown into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? marienbad: That is the Gospel, that is what mankind needs to hear. That's why man needs to repent and turn to Jesus. That's what God has said, that's what God has declared. I'm simply saying this - stop being foolish, stop being stubborn, stop running from Jesus, stop avoiding the topic. Stop ignoring the knock on the door. Give Jesus a chance, give His word a chance. I say this for your own sake. It is for your own good that you consider this, and not ignore it. Please do not treat this message flippantly. I post this because I hope that one day God will dwell richly in you, I post this because I believe that one day you might not run any more. I post this because I long for you and others to believe in Jesus and have life in His name as He promises us.
marienbad wrote: » What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?
PDN wrote: » But that is not what was under discussion. We were not discussing what was certain entrance to hell. We were discussing why people would go to hell - ie what people are sent to hell for. Those are two very distinct concepts. I'm happy to discuss either if you make it clear what it is you are wanting to discuss.
marienbad wrote: » lmaopml wrote: » Marien, it seems you can join the ranks of the pitiful who blame everybody around them; afterall, it's your soul, your journey, your choices - don't go 'blaming' others, either you live and learn or live and quite simply give a side nod to something you seem interested in, but afraid of knowing. Don't you realise that there are millions of people who don't 'blame' others for themselves, for laziness... You know what- it's your soul, your journey, your choice etc. but despite what you may see as 'opposition' in fact you have 'good friends' and always will have them here. What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?
lmaopml wrote: » Marien, it seems you can join the ranks of the pitiful who blame everybody around them; afterall, it's your soul, your journey, your choices - don't go 'blaming' others, either you live and learn or live and quite simply give a side nod to something you seem interested in, but afraid of knowing. Don't you realise that there are millions of people who don't 'blame' others for themselves, for laziness... You know what- it's your soul, your journey, your choice etc. but despite what you may see as 'opposition' in fact you have 'good friends' and always will have them here.
PDN wrote: » I pointed out that Christians do not believe that people are punished eternally for simply choosing not to believe in God. Christians, at least those who believe in eternal punishment at all, believe that people are punished eternally for other reasons -original sin, sin committed by Adam and Eve, sins committede by ourselves, or even, as you misunderstood it, failing to be baptised. You said I was inaccurate and wrong in posting that. So you were posting an argument. :rolleyes: Your argument was wrong. You tried to back it up by citing an experience which did not contradict or refute the point I had made. I am not disputing your experience. But I am pointing out that it was irrelevant to the point I had made. To imply or state otherwise was poor logic. When I pointed out that poor logic you embarked on a load of evasionary waffle about my being too theological, not listening, or lecturing too much. This gives the impression that you want to argue with something I said, but then evade any logical rebuttal yourself by saying, "I can argue against you, but my argument is free from being challenged or examined in turn because, in the midst of it, I shared an experience."
Fanny Cradock wrote: » I'm going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here and say that there are undoubtedly Christians out there that do think such a thing, which seems to be the extent of marienbad's argument. Of course, the question then becomes "so what?". If the Bible speaks a consistent message about the reasons for damnation (and I believe it does) then it stands over against somebody's poorly informed assumptions about what the Bible says about the reasons for damnation. It's like saying that because many people believe that shaving causes your hair to grow back thicker and in larger quantities that this has any significance beyond the fact that they are wrong. Do you have a point beyond this?
PDN wrote: » I pointed out that Christians do not believe that people are punished eternally for simply choosing not to believe in God.
marienbad wrote: » I really suggest you should read my post again , PDN - I did not post an argument - I posted what my experience has been - I can't see how you can dispute or debate that- yours may have been different ,but that is just irrelevant.
marienbad wrote: » I really suggest you should read my post again , PDN - I did not post an argument - I posted what my experience has been - I can't see how you can dispute or debate that- yours may have been different ,but that is just irrelevant. And my experience has been that the level of knowledge that people have of their faith is pitiful. How you deduce what my understanding of faith or belief is from that is beyond me.
PDN wrote: » Your post was contradictory. Accusing me of being 'too full of theology' doesn't change that. I did listen. I heard a contradiction. You were the one who tried to pick an argument with me, not vice versa. And none of that has the faintest relevance to what I was talking about. We were discussing whether Christians believe that people will be punished eternally purely for choosing not to believe in God. In other words, nor for orginal sin, not for all the other sins they have committed in their lives, purely for disbelief and no other reason. You are well out of order in arguing that I am wrong, but then trying to put your posts beyond logical analysis by deflecting with ad hominem attacks accusing me of not listening, of being 'too full of theology', and of not listening. Marien, if you post an argument on an internet discussion board then you must expect people to examine the logic of what you post. If you don't want that, or use ad hominem attacks to avoid such examination, then you cannot really expect anyone to take what you post seriously.
marienbad wrote: » AS I said experiences differ , you are too full of theology to see that we are not discussing logic,
You really should try listening instead of lecturing occassionally.
And again I see your are creating another ''rabbit hole''- I never said it was my personal understanding or misunderstanding ( do you read peoples post or always just look for the argument ?) .
Even today if you had a vox pop , on transubstantion/immaculate conception/ assumption/trinity -I doubt if you would get even 5% correct answers. And with that background a substantial number of people have a simplistic black and white faith.
PDN wrote: » No, that isn't actually true. I believe the flames and fire are probably symbolic, but also that they symbolise something far worse than literal fire. In eternity, I believe, people will see their sins as they really are. They won't make excuses any more, nor will they wink at their sins. They will realise, for the first time, exactly how horrible sin is. The first sentence of the above paragraph could be argued to imply that they are unable to see the reality of sin in this life. The second sentence implies that they can see the actuality of sin - but wilfully ignore it. And the third sentence once again could be said to mean that they were not capable of realising the depth of their errors on earth.
marienbad wrote: » AS I said experiences differ , you are too full of theology to see that we are not discussing logic, to most people in Ireland it dos'nt matter, there have their priests for that ( even still). I am not arguing anything I am just telling you what growing up in a catholic Ireland was like and in some places still is. You really should try listening instead of lecturing occassionally. And again I see your are creating another ''rabbit hole''- I never said it was my personal understanding or misunderstanding ( do you read peoples post or always just look for the argument ?) . Even today if you had a vox pop , on transubstantion/immaculate conception/ assumption/trinity -I doubt if you would get even 5% correct answers. And with that background a substantial number of people have a simplistic black and white faith. The level of ignorance on the fundamental tenets of their faith is something that is quite astonishing.
PDN wrote: » It's not your experience, but your logic that matters. As soon as you typed that word 'and' then you basically self-imploded. You can't argue that people will go to hell for just A and then try to justify that point by arguing that it was really A+B. And, tbh, it's going to be a colossal waste of time discussing your personal misunderstanding of the doctrine of the church in which you grew up.
marienbad wrote: » Not doubting you for a minute PDN, but yours is not the only experience and I would hazard a guess that mine is closer to that of a substantial amount of people in Ireland than yours.
And people were told at a very young age that not believing in God and baptised into the ''one true and apostolic church''
PDN wrote: » I have met tens of thousands of Christians. I have yet to meet one who believes that anyone will be sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in God. Therefore, unless there is someone on this forum who has argued such a position, it is just a big fat strawman - and not for the first time.
marienbad wrote: » But the may be true for you and Fanny, but it is not true for all Christians, as far as I know it is not even true for the greatest number of christians. And so is not unreasonable to other posters to be confused.
PDN wrote: » As has been pointed out on a number of occasions. I feel like I'm in that film 'Groundhog Day'.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » But we aren't saying that.
Canis Lupus wrote: » ...sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in god.
