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Question about service

pug_

I took my car in for service last week, and a few days later it had it's NCT. The car failed the NCT because of an imbalance in the rear brakes (imbalance was 38%, a fail is 30%).

My question is should the garage have picked up on this as part of a full service? I guess I'm trying to figure out if they should do the repair without charging me for labour, or is it something that wouldn't normally be picked up on as part of a service?

The car is a Nissan Almera, and the garage in question is a certified Nissan Gold standard garage.

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Seth Brundle

Check your owners manual for what is covered under a "full" service. However, given the poor way people in this country follow maintenance schedules, I would guess that it isn't covered unless you specifically requested it.

Avns1s

I wouldn't have thought that inspecting rear brakes would be part of a normal service to the extent of taking off the wheels and brake drums unless something specific was noted or advised to the garage.

The cause of your problem is likely to be worn shoes, seized hydraulic cylinders or leaking hydraulic cylinders. Either way it's not likely to be a massive deal.

djimi

Not a chance a garage would have picked this up during a routine service. I had a similar problem with my car and the mechanic had to bring it to another garage with DOE testing equipment in order to see if the repairs he had done resolved the problem.

Unless it is something very obvious (such as a very worn brake pad that they could/should have picked up on), then I dont think you have much of a case. Even then it depends on the service and what you were sold; if it was only oil, plugs and filters then of course they wont check things like the brake balance.

[Deleted User]

brake check and adjustment as required or alerting customer should be done in A full service, that's no guarantee it will pass the test though.

pug_

The brakes were checked at least to the extent that the front break pads were replaced, and I was told the rear ones were okay and they just gave them a clean.

To be honest I just want to be sure they did a proper job in the first place because I'm not really a car person so don't know what should be covered and what shouldn't.

[Deleted User]

If they said the brakes were fine and failed the NCT, I would be pretty pis*ed!

I would go back to the garage and have them double check. Then see what they say.

JoseJones

I had the same problem on my Almera. When I took the calipers off, the dust boot was worn and torn and the piston was covered in dust and spots of rust. Cleaning the rust off with scotch brite and replacing the seals sorted it but I know I will probably have to replace the pistons at some point soon. If you're wondering!

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

If they said the brakes were fine and failed the NCT, I would be pretty pis*ed!

I would go back to the garage and have them double check. Then see what they say.

Garage said brakes were fine.
NCT says they are not.

Someone was lying, but why do you assume it was the garage, not NCT?

[Deleted User]

CiniO wrote: »

Garage said brakes were fine.
NCT says they are not.

Someone was lying, but why do you assume it was the garage, not NCT?

No particular reason, just easier for a garage to check them, and since they failed the NCT, it would make sense to have them checked, and if needed, repaired.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

No particular reason, just easier for a garage to check them, and since they failed the NCT, it would make sense to have them checked, and if needed, repaired.

What I meant was that maybe garage really checked brakes and they were fine, and only reason for fail was inadequately calibrated NCT equipment.

wonski

CiniO wrote: »

What I meant was that maybe garage really checked brakes and they were fine, and only reason for fail was inadequately calibrated NCT equipment.

I changed discs and pads, and failed on the same(parking brake imbalance actually). Quick look on the brakes won't tell you everything, test lane at NCT is pretty accurate. After changing rears the reading on both sides was exactly the same for service brake, as i expected.
I don't defend NCT at any stage, as sometimes they fail on things out of nowhere, but brakes testing is pretty straightforward, and gives you some view on your brake condition. Wouldn't blame the garage, too. Unless something is really obvious, it is hard to say if it will fail, or pass.

Nissan doctor

The brakes may have been checked, i.e, disks, pads or drums, shoes, cylinders, depending on which you have.

A service would be a visual inspection and measurement of all of these but the balance is not something which can be visually inspected/measured precisely.

During a normal service I would gently apply the brakes to see if each wheel is braking with roughly the same force but it is just that, roughly. An exact measurement cannot be gauged unless you put the car on rollers like the NCT use and very very few garages have this equipment and even if they did, it wouldn't be part of a standard service.

CiniO

wonski wrote: »

I changed discs and pads, and failed on the same(parking brake imbalance actually). Quick look on the brakes won't tell you everything, test lane at NCT is pretty accurate. After changing rears the reading on both sides was exactly the same for service brake, as i expected.
I don't defend NCT at any stage, as sometimes they fail on things out of nowhere, but brakes testing is pretty straightforward, and gives you some view on your brake condition. Wouldn't blame the garage, too. Unless something is really obvious, it is hard to say if it will fail, or pass.

Surely you can't tell just by looking at disc and pads.
However few months ago I wrote a thread here about the issue I had.
In short I had my brakes checked on professional equipment, and while front were perfect, rear were very much imbalanced (100% difference) - I knew about it before as it's something you can feel while driving.
Anyway - I got brakes fixed - new discs and pads in back, and got car retested on professional equipment and result was nearly perfect.
Then I had car for my NCT 2 weeks later, and while it passed, brake imbalance was nearly 30%, as what result I was shocked. Especially that it was near the same result for front and rear service brakes, as well as hand brake - in all cases one side nearly 30% stronger than the other.
This is a difference I would definitely fell while driving, and in fact I didn't.
I'm nearly 100% sure my brakes were perfect during NCT test, and reason for such big imbalance was just faulty NCT equipment.

djimi

Deleted User wrote: »

If they said the brakes were fine and failed the NCT, I would be pretty pis*ed!

I would go back to the garage and have them double check. Then see what they say.

They said the brake pads were fine. Doesnt mean that there isnt a problem with the brake system itself which might lead to a fail. Without sticking the car on equipment to test this there would be no way of knowing for sure (unless its very obvious by looking at it), and a normal service would not include such a test.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Surely you can't tell just by looking at disc and pads.
However few months ago I wrote a thread here about the issue I had.
In short I had my brakes checked on professional equipment, and while front were perfect, rear were very much imbalanced (100% difference) - I knew about it before as it's something you can feel while driving.
Anyway - I got brakes fixed - new discs and pads in back, and got car retested on professional equipment and result was nearly perfect.
Then I had car for my NCT 2 weeks later, and while it passed, brake imbalance was nearly 30%, as what result I was shocked. Especially that it was near the same result for front and rear service brakes, as well as hand brake - in all cases one side nearly 30% stronger than the other.
This is a difference I would definitely fell while driving, and in fact I didn't.
I'm nearly 100% sure my brakes were perfect during NCT test, and reason for such big imbalance was just faulty NCT equipment.

Im no expert but I do know that a lot can change with brakes when you start to drive on them, and just because the readings were 100% when after you got the work carried out doesnt mean that something hadnt changed after a fortnight of driving the car.

In the case of my car there was a problem with an imbalance in the pressure; one side of the rear brakes was fine when you pressed the brake pedal initially, but basically stopped increasing in pressure as more pressure was applied to the brake pedal so eventually there was something like 35% imbalance). I didnt feel this at all when driving the car, but it failed the NCT a couple of times (changed the pads after the first fail to see what would happen).

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Im no expert but I do know that a lot can change with brakes when you start to drive on them, and just because the readings were 100% when after you got the work carried out doesnt mean that something hadnt changed after a fortnight of driving the car.

In the case of my car there was a problem with an imbalance in the pressure; one side of the rear brakes was fine when you pressed the brake pedal initially, but basically stopped increasing in pressure as more pressure was applied to the brake pedal so eventually there was something like 35% imbalance). I didnt feel this at all when driving the car, but it failed the NCT a couple of times (changed the pads after the first fail to see what would happen).

I'm not saying I have 100% confidence my brakes were fine during NCT.
But:
1. They were checked two weeks before, and even though I traveled big distance over that 2 weeks, I can't see them deteriorating that quickly and evenly (front and back nearly the same as well as handbrake).
2. I remember from my previous cars, that imbalance of over 20% on front axle, was always easy to spot by simple test - on straight road release steering wheel and apply brakes firmly - if car pulls to the side, there is a chance there is brakes imbalance. Even though according to NCT my brakes were out nearly 30%, there wasn't and still isn't such effect.
3. I have pretty precise way to check handbrake. Find gravel road at at moderate speed (f.e. 40km/h) start applying handbrake by pulling it steadily and slowly up to the moment both rear wheels will lock.
Then get out of car and look at traces. It's easy to spot at what point wheel locked. If there is imbalance one wheel would lock further than the other.
I tried this test after NCT few times, and always both rear wheels blocked at nearly exact the same spot, which gives me nearly 100% confidence my hand brake imbalance was almost 0, even though on NCT it showed exactly the same as with service brake front and rear nearly 30% imbalance.

Considering that 3 points, I'm strongly convinced that it was my car which was grant, and NCT equipment was faulty.

coylemj

'I had my car serviced by a main/reputable dealer and then it failed it's NCT' threads should be banned, same as threads on people driving around on clear days with their foglights on.

The message is the same out of all these threads - before the NCT, fix the obvious stuff like bald tyres and broken bulbs yourself, put it in for the NCT and then give it to a dealer to fix faults that you can't sort out yourself if you do fail.

MugMugs

coylemj wrote: »

'I had my car serviced by a main/reputable dealer and then it failed it's NCT' threads should be banned, same as threads on people driving around on clear days with their foglights on.

The message is the same out of all these threads - before the NCT, fix the obvious stuff like bald tyres and broken bulbs yourself, put it in for the NCT and then give it to a dealer to fix faults that you can't sort out yourself if you do fail.

With respects, you could probably stereotype 90% of the discussion on this forum with that kind of statement. If you don't like it then don't read it.

Nissan doctor

coylemj wrote: »

'I had my car serviced by a main/reputable dealer and then it failed it's NCT' threads should be banned, same as threads on people driving around on clear days with their foglights on.

The message is the same out of all these threads - before the NCT, fix the obvious stuff like bald tyres and broken bulbs yourself, put it in for the NCT and then give it to a dealer to fix faults that you can't sort out yourself if you do fail.

They had the car serviced....having a car serviced has nothing to do with when an NCT is due.

coylemj

Nissan doctor wrote: »

They had the car serviced....having a car serviced has nothing to do with when an NCT is due.

He put his car in for a service a few days before the NCT, I hardly think the timing was a coincidence.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

I'm not saying I have 100% confidence my brakes were fine during NCT.
But:
1. They were checked two weeks before, and even though I traveled big distance over that 2 weeks, I can't see them deteriorating that quickly and evenly (front and back nearly the same as well as handbrake).
2. I remember from my previous cars, that imbalance of over 20% on front axle, was always easy to spot by simple test - on straight road release steering wheel and apply brakes firmly - if car pulls to the side, there is a chance there is brakes imbalance. Even though according to NCT my brakes were out nearly 30%, there wasn't and still isn't such effect.
3. I have pretty precise way to check handbrake. Find gravel road at at moderate speed (f.e. 40km/h) start applying handbrake by pulling it steadily and slowly up to the moment both rear wheels will lock.
Then get out of car and look at traces. It's easy to spot at what point wheel locked. If there is imbalance one wheel would lock further than the other.
I tried this test after NCT few times, and always both rear wheels blocked at nearly exact the same spot, which gives me nearly 100% confidence my hand brake imbalance was almost 0, even though on NCT it showed exactly the same as with service brake front and rear nearly 30% imbalance.

Considering that 3 points, I'm strongly convinced that it was my car which was grant, and NCT equipment was faulty.

Im going to be honest; Id trust the NCT equipment before Id trust a "try it and see how it feels" method! Im not saying the NCT equipment is bang on accurate all the time, but I think theyd notice if it was off by 30% to be fair.

The reading on my brakes changed quite dramatically when I drove them and they bedded in. Its possible the brakes were fine when they were new in the car, but by the time they bedded in the problem started to show itself, so after a fortnight of driving there was an issue again. That was the case with mine anyway.

Jimdagym

coylemj wrote: »

He put his car in for a service a few days before the NCT, I hardly think the timing was a coincidence.

NCT is due on anniversary of registration, why wouldn't it be due a service?

djimi

coylemj wrote: »

He put his car in for a service a few days before the NCT, I hardly think the timing was a coincidence.

Id get my car seviced before an NCT; especially if it was due one around that time anyway. It obviously wont pick up on a lot of the potential faults, but (especially if you know the mechanic) they will probably give it a quick once over and at least advise you of the more obvious problems (bulbs, seat belts, tires etc). Also if they spot something that needs fixing then the test can be cancelled to save wasting the cost of a retest.

Syllabus

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The brakes may have been checked, i.e, disks, pads or drums, shoes, cylinders, depending on which you have.

A service would be a visual inspection and measurement of all of these but the balance is not something which can be visually inspected/measured precisely.

During a normal service I would gently apply the brakes to see if each wheel is braking with roughly the same force but it is just that, roughly. An exact measurement cannot be gauged unless you put the car on rollers like the NCT use and very very few garages have this equipment and even if they did, it wouldn't be part of a standard service.

agreed, however the way i adjust the handbrake for an NCT is to fully tighten each side then back the adjusted off equally both sides. i would apply the handbrake a click at a time to confirm the brakes lock up at the same time

not fool proof as such but ive never hada fail using this method

coylemj

Jimdagym wrote: »

NCT is due on anniversary of registration, why wouldn't it be due a service?

You can do the first NCT six months early, you can do subsequent NCT tests three months early. Add to that the fact that people can do greater than average mileage which means their car will be due a service less than 12 months after the last service. The result is that for a lot of people there will be no link between when they do the NCT and when the car is due a service.

Nissan doctor

Syllabus wrote: »

agreed, however the way i adjust the handbrake for an NCT is to fully tighten each side then back the adjusted off equally both sides. i would apply the handbrake a click at a time to confirm the brakes lock up at the same time

not fool proof as such but ive never hada fail using this method

That's for the handbrake, but the OP failed on the foot brake.;)

Syllabus

Nissan doctor wrote: »

That's for the handbrake, but the OP failed on the foot brake.;)

didnt cop that

ill get me coat

pug_

coylemj wrote: »

He put his car in for a service a few days before the NCT, I hardly think the timing was a coincidence.

You're wrong. It was a coincidence. I service my car religiously and do very low mileage on it, it's an 04 car that I bought second hand in 2008 and it still has under 60,000 miles on it. Granted I deliberately scheduled the service so as to have it serviced a few days before the NCT, but it's always due this time of year.

I know next to nothing about cars. To me they are a tool to get me from A to B which is why I started the thread to seek advice as I don't know what is considered part of a normal service and what isn't (genuinely).

wonski

What i normally do before NCT is up is, well i do nothing, unless there is obvious fault with the car. Readings from testing equipment, in my case, are usually ok, most of the fails i had were picked up during visual inspection. It is up to the tester if he spot something or not, so it is better to just send the car as it is, and then fix what they say is needed. Saves me a hassle, and money, too.