LH Pathe wrote: » can't believe what my bleary eyes are reading, wading through tis thread. like patrick duffy when the credits roll
Mr. Incognito wrote: » I read that link. What a lot of tripe. "what if, what if" Sounds like some over active boyscouts at a campfire. Bull****
ManFromAtlantis wrote: » no its not. And I'd know
CJC999 wrote: » We should change the name of the country to Atlants immediately and have a fish as our national emblem and change the national flag colours to green white and goldfish. I wonder where they buried the stargate???
Biggins wrote: » * The discovery of a mysterious "anomaly" in Antarctica.
Biggins wrote: » * The VERY ancient Piri Reis' map - which shows an ancient land at the south pole which until recently we (in modern times) couldn't prove was there.
Doc Ruby wrote: » There is some funky stuff going on down at the South Pole alright, and has been for a while, but I doubt it has anything to do with Atlantis. Antarctica has been icebound for millions of years.
Doc Ruby wrote: » The Piri Reis map has been traced as the coast of South America, which would have been accessable to explorers of the time.
The Piri Reis map shows the western coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America, and the northern coast of Antarctica. The northern coastline of Antarctica is perfectly detailed. The most puzzling however is not so much how Piri Reis managed to draw such an accurate map of the Antarctic region 300 years before it was discovered, but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.
The official science has been saying all along that the ice-cap which covers the Antarctic is million years old.The Piri Reis map shows that the northern part of that continent has been mapped before the ice did cover it. That should make think it has been mapped million years ago, but that's impossible since mankind did not exist at that time. Further and more accurate studies have proven that the last period of ice-free condition in the Antarctic ended about 6000 years ago. There are still doubts about the beginning of this ice-free period, which has been put by different researchers everything between year 13000 and 9000 BC. The question is: Who mapped the Queen Maud Land of Antarctic 6000 years ago? Which unknown civilization had the technology or the need to do that? It is well-known that the first civilization, according to the traditional history, developed in the mid-east around year 3000 BC, soon to be followed within a millennium by the Indus valley and the Chinese ones. So, accordingly, none of the known civilizations could have done such a job. Who was here 4000 years BC, being able to do things that NOW are possible with the modern technologies?
After WW II, scientists started to pay close attention to the issue of a supposedly once-existing civilization in Antarctica. The hypothesis is confirmed by some medieval maps and research of paleogeologists and glaciologists. In January of 1820, a Lieutenant of Russian Empire Fleet, Mikhail Lazarev discovered a new continent. In the beginning of 20th century, a Russian encyclopedia, while adducing the approximate square milage of the south pole continent, reported that it was insufficiently explored and there was no flora and fauna. The author of the article also mentioned the richness of the algae and sea life. Twenty years later, the director of the Istanbul National Museum, Khalil Edkhem, was sorting out a library of the Byzantine emperors in an old palace. He found an ancient map made on gazelle skin. On the map, there were the shores of western and southern Africa, as well as the northern shores of Antarctica. Khalil could not believe his eyes: the shores of the Queen Mod Land, to the south of the 70th parallel, was free of ice. An ancient cartographer marked a mountain chain there. The name of the cartographer was known: an admiral of the Ottoman Empire fleet, Piri Reis, who lived in the first half of 16th century. The map's authenticity was without doubt. Graphology examinations of the notes on the margin confirmed that they belonged to the admiral. In 1949, a combined British and Swedish expedition conducted intensive seismic measurements of the South Pole through the ice cap. According to the commander of 8th Technical Investigation Squadron of the US Armed Force Strategic Command, Colonel Harold Olmayer, the geographical details of the bottom part of the map (the shore of Antarctica) correspond with the results of the seismic measurements. We cannot correlate these data with the supposed level of geography in 1513. In his notes on the map's margin, made in the early 16th century, Piri Reis explained that he was not responsible for the cartography and that the map was based on earlier sources. Some of these earlier sources, belong to his contemporaries (for example, to Christopher Columbus), while others could be dated to the 4th century B. C. if not later, because one of these sources belonged to Alexander the Great. Of course, professional historians who specialize in ancient history could say the following: This is only one more hypothesis. What about documentation and, what would be even more desirable, trust-worthy sources? The opinion of the Turkish admiral and notes on a margin, is too open to controversy. Therefore, I would like to present the position of the late historian and professor of Keene College in New Hampshire, USA, Charles H. Hapgood. In the late 1959, he found in the Washington Congressional Library a map created by Orontheus Phynius in 1531. Orontheus Phynius depicted Antarctica with mountains and rivers, without glaciers. The relief of the continent-s center was not marked, which, according to Hapgood, could mean that there had been an ice cap in that area. In the early 1960s, Phynius' map was studied by Doctor Richard Stratchen of the Massachusetts Technology Institute together with Hapgood. Both scientists concluded that Phynius map had indeed depicted Antarctica free of ice. The characteristics depicted were very close to the information that was obtained in 1958 by specialists from different countries. Gerard Cremer, known in to the world as Mercator, also trusted Orontheus' evidence. He included the Phynius map into his atlas, in which several maps of Antarctica by Mercator himself were also included. There is one other interesting feature: on Mercator's map of 1569, the west shore of South America is pictured less accurately than on the earlier map of Mercator from 1538. The reasons for this contradiction are the following: while working at the earlier map, the cartographer of 16th century proceeded from ancient sources, which were not kept for our time, and while working on the later map, he proceeded from observations of the first Spanish explorers to South America. Gerard Mercato's mistake can be excused. In the 16th century, there were no precise methods to measure longitude: as a rule, an error could have been hundreds of kilometers! Photo: Ikonos satellite photo of glacier in Antarctica. Click and drag photo to resize. Finally, we come to Philippe Boiche, a full member of the French Academy of Science. In 1737, he published his map of Antarctica. Boiche presented a precise picture of Antarctica of the time when the continent was free of ice. On his map, the under-ice topography of the continent is presented, about which our civilization had no clear idea until 1958. Moreover, based on now-lost sources, the French academician depicted in the middle of the South Pole a body of water dividing it into two sub-continents, which were situated to the west and to the east from the line, where the Trans-Antarctic Mountains are now marked. According to the investigation in the framework of International Geophysical Year (1958), Antarctic is in fact an archipelago of large islands covered with 1.5-kilometers of ice. Medieval maps show Antarctica without an ice cap or only partially covered with ice. The precision of the 16th century cartographers was very high and even surprising. Their data surpassed the technical possibilities even of the late Middle Ages (for example, the determination of the longitude of a relief within one minute). This level was reached by mankind only just in the late 18th century, and in some cases, the 20th. Scientists cannot comment on the high scientific level of medieval cartography. Information from almost 2000-year-old primary sources is supposed to be not well-founded. Orthodox geology claimed that the age of the Antarctica ice cap was at least 25 million years; however, recently, it has been reduced to six million years. Therefore, we should notice the following feature of the Reis map: the shore of the continent was free of ice. On the Phynius map, made 18 years after the Reis map, there is an ice cap around the South Pole within the limits of 80th and the 75th parallels. Two hundred years later, academician Boiche depicted Antarctica with glaciers. The conclusion is obvious: we can see the process of the spreading of glaciers on the southern continent. In 1949, Admiral Baird's expedition bore holes into the Ross Sea in three spots, where Orontheus Phynius marked river-beds. In the cuts, fine-grained layers were found, obviously brought to the sea from rivers, whose sources were situated in temperate latitudes (i.e. free of glaciers). While using the nuclear dating method of doctor U. Oury from the Karnegy Institute in Washington, scientists discovered that Antarctica's rivers, which were sources of fine-dyspersated deposits, were flowing as depicted on the Phynius map, about 6,000 years ago. About 4000 years B. C., glacial sediments started to accumulate on the bottom of Ross Sea. Kernels show that before this, there was a long warm period. Therefore, the maps of Reis, Phynius, and Mercator present Antarctica when the ancient Egyptian and Shumer civilizations were newborn. This point of view is excluded by almost all professional historians and could be regarded as an operating hypothesis that cannot be verified. Any historian would say that there were no civilization of the kind in the late 5th millenium B. C. According to Doctor Jacob Hock from Illinois University, the deposits in-question could be 6 to 12 thousand years old. In September 1991, US and Egyptian archaeologists discovered at a distance of 13 km from Nile River, in Abidos, 12 large boats that belonged to Pharaohs of First Dynasty. The age of the boats is about 5,000 years. They are believed to be the most ancient vessels in the world, the leader of the expedition, D. O-Connor far, the find is estimated to be aimed for religious rites. According to Herodotus, ancient Egyptians tracked stars more than 10,000 years ago. This statement of the "father of history" is supposed to be esoteric and, therefore, not true. However, land nations seldom produced astronomers. The fact that ancient Egyptians were interested in astronomy may indicate that they inherited some knowledge from an unknown civilization of navigators. Workers of US technical intelligence determined the projection center of the Piri Reis map, whose data belongs to 4000 year B. C. The projection center was supposedly situated near today's Cairo. At that time, according to most historians, all then-existing nations were at a very low level of development. Between the 5th and 10th milleniums B. C., there was a civilization on Earth that possessed great knowledge in the field of navigation, cartography, and astronomy, which was no less advanced than that that of the 18th century. This civilization preceded our civilization, and it was not an extraterrestrial one. Its age could be several thousands years, while its location was probably on the northern shore of the most southern continent, or archipelago: Antarctica. Later, this civilization may have resettled to the north-east of Africa. The reason for the death of the civilization was the covering of Antarctica with glaciers. This process started no earlier than in the 10th millenium B. C. It cannot be excluded that there were also large-scale floods, which were regular and cause long-term local deluges (this is confirmed by archaeologists). These disasters could have destroyed most of the civilization's cultural objects. However, some fragments might be found in the future under the thickness of ice. It can also be assumed that the survivors of Antarctica kept and handed down knowledge to the ancient Egyptians. Therefore, if there will ever be an extensive exploration of Antarctica, mankind will most likely be surprised with the results.
Biggins wrote: » As I said, "Atlantis" as such did not exist. It was a tale created by Plato that came about many suspect due to something he knew or heard about himself from ancient stories. He created thus a tale of "Atlantis" in his own writings and used Thira - modern-day Santorin - as a basis method of how such a place might have sunk. There is no doubt that there was a civilisation that existed on Santorin at one stage - its accepted though by many qualified heads though that the timing of that civilisation existence is too late to qualify as the land that Plato might have in fact been basing his own THEN heard ancient tale - and thus respun and re-worded later yarn, upon.
Biggins wrote: » The above is only one example source, of which there is many saying the same thing, in teaching, in net location, in research papers and in many books (some of which I possess from studying this subject for decades).l
Doc Ruby wrote: » Okay well to save any talking at cross purposes here, are you saying that you believe there was an Atlantean-type civilisation in Antarctica (which has been covered in ice for 34 million years), and if so what is your impression of what it might have been?
Doc Ruby wrote: » Look. There is absolutely no consensus that the Piri Reis map represents anything to do with an ice-free Antarctica.
As stated by Colonel Harold Z. Ohlmeyer in his letter (July 6, 1960) to you, the Princess Martha Coast of Queen Maud Laud, Antarctica, appears to be truly represented on the southern sector of the Piri Reis map. The agreement of the Piri Reis Map with the seismic profile of this area made by the Norwegian-British-Swedish Expedition of 1949, supported by your solution of the grid, places beyond a reasonable doubt the conclusion that the original source maps must have been made before the present Antarctic ice cap covered the Queen Maud Land coasts.
44leto wrote: » I prefer the British Isles I am use to that one. That doesn't make me feel less Irish, but I wish it made me feel more British.
Biggins wrote: » I and others have suggested given a good number of evidence that exists, to say that a civilisation might have existed on the northern tip of whats NOW known as the South Pole. The then climatic conditions was very much indeed possible. Taking into account that humans being what they are sometimes by nature, great yarn tellers and oft times enhance parts to make a story interesting and keeping that in mind, if a civilisation did exist, its indeed possible that they were to of even modicum intelligence - not the fanciful one of mythical status as espoused Plato for example - but as a civilisation that knew many things regarding natural science and its place amid the stars and understanding of great technical construction (later passed onto other communities when they left due to the incoming disaster which forced them to eventually migrate).
Biggins wrote: » Sorry but wrong. The map you linked to did indeed indicate parts of South America BUT what you missed is another part of the map which by MANY, there is no debate about.
Sound of Silence wrote: » It might make you feel British. It won't make you British.
Doc Ruby wrote: » Okay so what you're saying here is that you believe there were great civilisations which predate the accepted mainstream. In this I'm inclined to agree with you. Anatomically modern humans have been around for the last quarter of a million years. Take a baby from 200,000 years ago, raise him or her in the modern world, and you would notice nothing unusual about them. And yet, we only have solid records for the last 1% of that period. The other 99% of the time we weren't sitting around banging rocks together; some might imagine the stone age as a period of unshaven hunter gatherers moving from disaster to disaster, but this is a stone age culture. So was this, and only three cities on earth were larger than it at the time. This dates from long before the last ice age. So where's all the evidence? Probably dunked under about thirty meters of water, mud and silt at this point. Cultures build along coasts, so when the ice age ended, anything too near would have been drowned, hence the flood myths. I haven't anything more solid that that, but I do believe we'll turn up this evidence in future.
Doc Ruby wrote: » There is no debate about it because there is no connection. Take a good read through this painstaking, methodical and scientifically accurate debunking of the Piri Reis myth. If that doesn't convince you there's not much left to be said on the matter.
In 1953, a Turkish naval officer sent the Piri Reis map to the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Bureau. To evaluate it, M.I. Walters, the Chief Engineer of the Bureau, called for help Arlington H. Mallery, an authority on ancient maps, who had previously worked with him. After a long study, Mallery discovered the projection method used. To check out the accuracy of the map, he made a grid and transferred the Piri Reis map onto a globe: the map was totally accurate. He stated that the only way to draw map of such accuracy was the aerial surveying: but who, 6000 years ago, could have used airplanes to map the earth? And this was Antartica ice free. The Hydrographic Office couldn't believe what they saw: they were even able to correct some errors in the present days maps! The precision on determining the longitudinal coordinates, on the other hand, shows that to draw the map it was necessary to use the spheroid trigonometry, a process supposedly not know until the middle of 18th century. LINK
44leto wrote: » ...if the Antarctic was to lose that amount of Ice the coasts of all the maps would look very different.
Biggins wrote: » * Even studies done FIVE times by the US navy - even to the extent of sending 4,000 men to the ice land to map the place and also there is pieces of research like this:
Here's a recent e-mail I got. My comments are in red. So let me get this straight, regarding the Piri Reis map, You feel that people are totally wrong and probably liars, when they claim: "In 1953 ... the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Bureau ... Arlington H. Mallery, an authority on ancient maps ... Mallery discovered the projection method used. ... the map was totally accurate. ... The Hydrographic Office ... were ... able to correct ... errors in the present days maps" <http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm>Yes, they are totally wrong. Certainly the people who created the web page he cites did absolutely no original work of their own but are merely parroting older pseudoscience works.Reality check here. In 1953, we had just fought a major war in the Atlantic, where errors in maps could lead to ships being sunk and battles being lost. We're to believe a 16th century map was more accurate than charts used to fight naval warfare in World War II when ships and lives depended on cartographic accuracy? And what specific errors were found and corrected? Where's the documentation that any of this ever actually happened?Searching for Arlington H Mallery on line is revealing. He was a prolific author of cult archeological theories, and at least a couple of times he got into professional journals, only to get smacked down soundly for his errors.
Doc Ruby wrote: » This alone tells me you didn't bother reading the link I provided. If you had you'd have seen this: Now if you won't give even a cursory glance to the resounding scientific debunking of the myth, you're far too bought into it for any facts to change your mind. Hopefully however at least others will learn the reality from the discussion.
Biggins wrote: » What is this stuff about "Arlington H Mallery" ??? I have NOT referred to him, NOT mentioned him in any way - why are you digging this chap up and trying to impose that he is conducive to studies I have done? Please DO NOT associate him with any of my postings.
Biggins wrote: » In 1953, a Turkish naval officer sent the Piri Reis map to the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Bureau. To evaluate it, M.I. Walters, the Chief Engineer of the Bureau, called for help Arlington H. Mallery, an authority on ancient maps, who had previously worked with him. After a long study, Mallery discovered the projection method used. To check out the accuracy of the map, he made a grid and transferred the Piri Reis map onto a globe: the map was totally accurate. He stated that the only way to draw map of such accuracy was the aerial surveying: but who, 6000 years ago, could have used airplanes to map the earth? And this was Antartica ice free.
Doc Ruby wrote: » I'm actually starting to get worried now. This is from one post above my last one, posted by you.
Biggins wrote: » We are both right in reflection. I posted text which was just one example - one example - that did indeed refer to him also.
Biggins wrote: » This is a topic that I have studied seriously for decades
Doc Ruby wrote: » Mallery is something of a central figure in the Piri Reis myth being propagated around the internet, something you would know if you had actually studied it for decades. And seriously, when you've reached the stage where you're not even reading your own posts, well... Anyway, good luck with that.
Biggins wrote: » Mallery is some one that amid the much reading i have done, is also by chance mentioned in a posting of mine by connection to the material we are discussing. Amid others things which you refuse to acknowledge and/or see is that very many other serious people the world over still state that the accuracy of the Piri Reis map (in its entirety - and not just the left section that you saw but failed to see the right section and its also importance). Right now American, Russian and British research teams are at the South Pole still looking into what lies beneath the Ice below. A lot of their very studies/research is based upon the geographical maps of which one we are currently trying to discuss here. If anyone else bothers to actually read the various news items and studies done I have posted links to, they will see that there is indeed a great deal of truth in what the map alone (besides others) has exposed previously and is now being confirmed even today, the latest been the water findings of the Russian team at Vostok. Boiled down to points, my and others contention is of possibly the following. * That a culture once existed on the Northern tip of once fertile land of the South Pole. * Somehow that region was mapped by a number of people and copies of these maps was used later (including a Turkish man) to draw their own version with its engrained accuracy. * The land that did exist, due to climate changing conditions, became covered over - thankfully at a rate that still allowed a living culture there, to move on to other lands - taking with them their learning and skills to places far away it appears. * That the now iced over land is still being further discovered and amazingly still found to be accurate to the said old map(s). As regards this "Atlantis" stuff of myths and legends, Plato has a lot to answer for and people REALLY should see beyond his story telling and look to the material that it was supposedly based upon and which at least, gave the "Ron E Hubbard" man of his day, at least inspiration for some of his fanciful stuff.
44leto wrote: » But the Antarctic is fully mapped they know exactly the geological features that lie beneath. How do you think they know that lake is still liquid. Here is one example of a radar map. But there are loads of them.http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/06/article-0-0F10F89700000578-639_634x481.jpghttp://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/images/radarsat1_mos_antarctique.jpg I am following that Russian drilling expedition with interest, I can't wait to see what turn evolution would have taken in that extreme environment. I am not expecting "The Thing" or any ancient ruins. This is great and exciting science.
paddyandy wrote: » We will be Atlantis if this Treaty is'nt passed .
