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2700s being withdrawn, possibly sold off?

Jehuty42

This thread is probably going to descend into anarchy, but this is an issue worth talking about.

Recent rumbings on IRN indicate IE seem to be planning to withdraw the 2700 series DMUs from service. When the new 22000s come on stream, that will free 29000s from long distance work which will allow them to displace 2800s on commuter work. The 2800s will then be sent out of the Dublin area to operate Limerick, WRC, South Tipp and Ballina trains.

A few 2800 sets have already gone south to Limerick for driver training.

Whatever about disposing of the Alstom DARTs that never worked, or the MK3s where you could at least make the case of staff savings and operating effencies, this move totally baffles me. The 2700s were repainted and lightly refurbished to remove gangways in the past year, at a cost of thousands per set I would assume.

Does anyone have any more information? Am I alone in thinking this is slightly scandalous, if true(which I am not sure of yet)?

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corktina

water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.

yeh, and when they need overhall get rid of them to and buy more, fantastic idea. maybe when they need a bit of Maintenance we should get rid to? or maybe they should just run them into the ground and give them the bare Maintenance? where does it stop?

Millem

It is unfortunate that the 2700s are being withdrawn, no doubt ahead of their time. While still a useful unit, the likelihood of overseas buyers seems unlikely due to their gauge, multiple unit operating issues (decoupling) and the fact that they are at a life stage where they are in need of refurbishment.

It does seem wasteful that the latter 22k batch was ordered, and has prompted the demise of useful trains ahead of their time. That said the operational flexibilities and cost savings of common fleet dmu operation are pretty compelling.

I did a thesis on Irish rail for my masters and interviewed a number of senior management and unions for the report. I am a mkiii fan and raised the issue of wastefulness with them on this, 8200 darts and possible 27 withdrawal ( interviewed them last summer )

The cost savings and flexibility of a fleet wide 22k / 26 / 28 / 29 is unbelievable when you consider relative to loco hauled. Also from a driver training pov and economies of scale re parts it is a bulletproof business case. From an accountancy pov (and not a wastefulness or ethical one) the mkiiis were depreciated to nothing and the 27Ks have served 15 of their 20 years, so the loss to IR is minimal.

Wider 22k operation should offer further cost savings, and IR need to achieve this against a backdrop of falling subsidies and passenger numbers ( the 2010 annual report does not even give pax nos (unprecedented) - I'd speculate these are even lower than the poor 2009 figures)

Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

Sorry for going on and on ... Cheers !!

Jamie2k9

Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.

dowlingm

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

CIE

dowlingm wrote: »

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?

corktina

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.

we've no money, so what we've got, we are stuck with.It will be a long time before lines are upgraded to 125mph operation ,IE are still upgrading to 100 mph! I don't think you'll see power cars for the mk4s either. I could well imagine them using 22000s fior the faster services and using the 201s for slower services where they will do less harm

Hungerford

CIE wrote: »

Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?

Faster top speed - the 29000s have a maximum speed of 75 mph while the 2200s have a maximum of 100 mph. By comparison, the C3Ks and C4Ks used by NIR have a maximum speed of 90 mph. I have a suspicion that the C4Ks have the quickest acceleration of any of them.

For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.

Run_to_da_hills

Hungerford wrote: »

For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.

The Enterprise beyond Newry hardly reaches speeds of over 60 :rolleyes:

Oscar Bravo

2820+2819+2806+2805 went from Athlone to Ballina today passing through Manulla Junction just after 1030am.

shamwari

dowlingm wrote: »

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

I agree with this. The 22K's are an intercity train and their configuration is perfectly fine when fulfilling that role. Using them as a mainstay commuter train on northern and western is IMHO a very bad idea. The don't accelerate with any notable difference compared to regular commuter railcars, and their top speed advantage will never be realised in stop / start situations and on lines where running speeds are typically way below their max anyway.

Any more diagrams worked with 22k's will also see the likes of the issues we had with Cravens and MkIII's in the early noughties when it took an eternity for people to fight their way on board with crowded isles and vestibules, and ultimately a slippage in journey times.

Whilst probably mentioned already here, the only reason one set is rostered on the northern is to allow its maintenance in Drogheda, and it makes sense to use it in "revenue earning mode" when running it to / from there.

foggy_lad

They are also using some 22000's on the maynooth commuter route which while nice for the people who manage to get a seat is not very good for the people left standing at the doorways and between carriages because there is no room to stand anywhere else. The 29000's are far better on journeys to maynooth mullingar drogheda Dundalk and Wicklow where there is no benefit gained by using the 22000's.

The 22000's are intercity stock and have proven to be able to keep to a timetable better than the mark4 trains but stopping every few miles is not what they were built for. They are very comfortable at speed even on poorer lines and would be perfect on express commuter services to Longford and Dundalk stopping at only a few stations.

Using tem on other commuter routes is like Dublin bus using luxury 35seater coaches on the 145 route at rush-hour, just a badly thought out idea!

Oscar Bravo

2722/19 on the Ballina Branch today

Oscar Bravo

2800s Ready for action in Ballina

Run_to_da_hills

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

2800s Ready for action in Ballina

Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's

Poxyshamrock

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

highlydebased

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

Some links now seem to be always operated by 22k's, evening ones in particular. Some of them go through to Limk Jctn.

dowlingm

Is that 22 the one that operates the Nenagh branch in the mornings maybe? If another one was available I think they should look at changing the Limerick-Thurles(ECS)-Thurles-Limerick to 22 since it would be able to take advantage of the higher limits on the stretch from/to the Junction.

Captain Chaos

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's

Because there was underlying issue with the 2700s auto couplers uncoupling unintentionally and is a safety hazard if people happen to be passing between units and it happens to uncouple in transit. The 26s and 28s don't have that fault. The 27s are built by Alstom like those other heaps of junk that are the 8200 DART units that are reported to be sold off this year. The 26 and 28 are built by Mitsu Tokyu Car like the 85xx DARTs and are very good performers all round.

Run_to_da_hills

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

With the amount of passengers on this route they should remove the intermediate carriage.

LXFlyer

I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.

One would hope so, and not that one would be put on the Parity Of Esteem Express instead.

dublinman1990

I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.

Captain Chaos

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.

Yeah, the 22s are now regular for Dundalk services. During last week it was either 2x3 or a 6 car highcap set working the service. During the afternoon it is sometimes a single 3 car set.

Oscar Bravo

2717 on the Manulla-Ballina service today

Oscar Bravo

The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.

Captain Chaos

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.

The 26s are already in the IC livery so makes sense for the 28s to get it too but removing the gangways, why. The 26s got to hang on to theirs even though they mainly work in pairs anyway.

Mycroft H

Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.

Run_to_da_hills

BX 19 wrote: »

Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.

Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn.

Mycroft H

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn.

Maybe its the 12 year old in me, but I love the sound of the train horn

The one on the DARTS is a bit weedy though.