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New Household Tax - Boycott

bkeano

Hi all Boardies

Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

thanks
Brian

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later12

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Which party/grouping that is against the household tax has plans to tackle the welfare bill? Sinn feinn, ULA or the SWP? :P

Indeed. My point was just that there are valid, technical arguments for not introducing a property charge. One being that for countries facing fiscal adjustments, expenditure cuts have been demonstrated to be more effective than new revenue initiatives.

However, some people, including the Government and perhaps some posters in this thread, have an ideological preference for coming up with new taxes.

Fair enough. If that is one's own economic bent then it can be argued that introducing a property tax is the next intelligent thing to do. It certainly is a very rigid tax which will maintain the size of Government. I don't particularly have an economic opinion on that, we all come from different approaches; except to say I understand why it's slightly infuriating to Irish taxpayers.

Monty Burnz

RichardAnd wrote: »

Anyway, as I've made the effort of explaining myself I would ask that anyone taken to argue with me does so in an agreeable manner. Thank you.

I'd disagree with you on the topic, but that's a good post. This is how discussions on these matters should be carried out.

RichardAnd

I've kept out of this discussion for the most part but I feel drawn to make my own views know.

Firstly, let me say that I understand and agree that some form of taxation is required for any society to function as a whole. Just how much tax that is required depends on a great many things but let's not get into that. I don't disagree with taxation, that's my first point.

However, I do not like the idea of this household tax for a number of reasons thus, I would oppose it. Rather than exiting the discussion at that point, I would like to lay down why I believe this lest I be accused of pointing a finger and shouting "the bankers!"

My first issue is that this is an open ended tax. There is nothing, as far as I know, that acts as a upper limit on the amount that this tax can levy upon our citizens. This is why I don't agree with the adage of "sure it's only one hundred euro", it does not consider the aforementioned issue. IT is possible that the charge is simple testing the water to gauge the reaction of the people of IReland and if it is passed without any meaningful opposition, I would not be surprised to see it rise.

Next, I have a problem with the concept of a household charge in principal. I am aware that there is little difference between income tax and property tax but something about a charge upon a house does not sit well with me. In my mind, if someone has paid for their house, they should own it in every sense of the term and putting a charge upon that property does not seem right to me. Private property should be sacrosanct to a modern state because, as history demonstrate very well, little good comes about when the powers that be attempt to help themselves to what their citizens own. I am also aware there is an irony in socialist opposition to property tax but that's an aside.

Finally, and this is perhaps the underlying problem for me; I do not trust the government. Mismanagement of public monies has plagued this country (and many others) since its inception. I see no reason why the sate should be given more money by its people until it has demonstrated responsibly and care for what it already receives. If this charge is only going to generate 160 million euros then why not raise that money by not giving the same amount to a bank. Now I know that sounds dreadfully cliche but I believe it is a valid point. I know the reason cited is to maintain "confidence" to be quite honest, I think that is a rather empty excuse. After all, it often seems that the money loaded to create debt never truly existed, why not pretend the debt doesn't exist either?

Anyway, as I've made the effort of explaining myself I would ask that anyone taken to argue with me does so in an agreeable manner. Thank you.

[Deleted User]

later12 wrote: »

The glaringly obvious one would be the economic arguments for local and central government expenditure cuts. The deficit can be tackled from either side of the balance sheet.

My point is that if one has an ideological preference for new revenue measures, then a property tax, from a sustainability and fiscal tightening point of view, is objectively legitimate. Personally I would rather tackle some welfare rates, as an example.

Which party/grouping that is against the household tax has plans to tackle the welfare bill? Sinn feinn, ULA or the SWP? :P

JustinDee

As usual, taxpayers bear the non-taxpayers.
Thanks for that, folks. Much obliged.

happyman81

later12 wrote: »

I'm not convinced that this is a socialist issue.

85% of households have not registered to pay the charge. Within that figure, the proportion of those actively resisting will become apparent over the next fortnight. However, I would seriously doubt that it represents a socialist headcount. The opposition seems to be much broader than that.

I'm referring to the organisers of the boycott movement, i.e. the ULA, etc.

later12

I'm not convinced that this is a socialist issue.

85% of households have not registered to pay the charge. Within that figure, the proportion of those actively resisting will become apparent over the next fortnight. However, I would seriously doubt that it represents a socialist headcount. The opposition seems to be much broader than that.

happyman81

It is a particularly odd brand of socialism that we have here in Ireland, calls for high government spending combined with low taxes for all but 1% of the population. Only in this country...

Monty Burnz

happyman81 wrote: »

It is a particularly odd brand of socialism that we have here in Ireland, calls for high government spending combined with low taxes for all but 1% of the population. Only in this country...

You'll be first against the wall come the revolution.

They also appear to be the only socialists in the world who are opposed to taxes on capital. Bizarre. You'd almost accuse them of populism and political opportunism, but surely that is beneath them?

happyman81

It is a particularly odd brand of socialism that we have here in Ireland, calls for high government spending combined with low taxes for all but 1% of the population. Only in this country...

later12

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I have yet to see one reason for not paying the household charge that relates to the budget deficit. It's all bankers this/evil government that.

The glaringly obvious one would be the economic arguments for local and central government expenditure cuts. The deficit can be tackled from either side of the balance sheet.

My point is that if one has an ideological preference for new revenue measures, then a property tax, from a sustainability and fiscal tightening point of view, is objectively legitimate. Personally I would rather tackle some welfare rates, as an example.

[Deleted User]

later12 wrote: »

Personally I would be naturally inclined to oppose a reintroduction of a property tax (for which this household charge is an admitted precursor) for the above selfish, sentimental, wholly irrational reasons. However from an economic point of view, there are both advantages and disadvantages. An example of this is the inelasticity of the tax - is that ultimately a good thing or a bad thing?

If there is one thing we should have all learned from the crash it's that tax revenues need to become both stable and reliable so we can go forward with sensible budgets and actually attempt to put a halt to this 20billion euro loss per year fiasco happening again.

I have yet to see one reason for not paying the household charge that relates to the budget deficit. It's all bankers this/evil government that.

I'm becoming incredibly disillusioned by the day. I honestly believed that Sean Gallagher as the front runner for president was as low as we'd sink.

later12

I always find it most interesting how taxpayers are ever so submissive toward new taxes like the USC, and before that the levies, and income tax rises and increases in social contribution charges. Academic economists are very interested in the salience of taxes and the "fiscal illusion": that is to say, the manner in which people ignore automatic deductions, but vehemently oppose contributions which they must physically make themselves, as if they were somehow 'more real.

I think that's what we are seeing here to some extent.

As well as that, I think anyone who is interested in rural Ireland and the dreadful effect that rates had on many of their ancestors up until their abolition in 1977 will have a great deal of sympathy for those who are opposed to the reintroduction of an Irish property tax.

Personally I would be naturally inclined to oppose a reintroduction of a property tax (for which this household charge is an admitted precursor) for the above selfish, sentimental, wholly irrational reasons. However from an economic point of view, there are both advantages and disadvantages. An example of this is the inelasticity of the tax - is that ultimately a good thing or a bad thing?

Overall I think one can find some logically pleasing arguments in favour of the introduction of a property tax, and I readily admit these exist. Having said that, I think I probably would be quietly glad to see the opponents victorious on this one.

DB21

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how "united" people will be/feel when individual households get a demand for the charge in the near future. It will be in black and white, either pay the outstanding charge or face legal action. Most will pay IMO.

What are they going to do? Bring ~1 million people to court? Doubt it.

Fulton Crown

Big Phil has bet the money on this one ...for his credibliity he has to make it stick.

Will middle Ireland be forced to pay up again...me I've stumped up an now I'm depending on the Govt to ensure everybody who can afford to stumps up also.

Be really pissed off if a large cohort refused to pay and got away with it...really pissed off.

Take the TD'Ds agin it....interestin to see what happens to them....clearly identifyable...will be expecting them to see the inside of a cell or have the charge deducted from their salaries .

High wire stuff Phil...more depends on it than possibly you realise.

I will be certainly regarding it as an important Govt bell weather

Mr.Micro

It will be interesting to see how "united" people will be/feel when individual households get a demand for the charge in the near future. It will be in black and white, either pay the outstanding charge or face legal action. Most will pay IMO.

[Deleted User]

Also to add: Does anyone posting here who is against paying the Household Charge honestly foresee people being thrown out of their houses en masse because of it? Do you not see even the slightest hint of ridiculousness in that notion?

FreudianSlippers

Manach wrote: »

Hubris might be defined as going up against the Legal mod.
Thus (ARAIR) -
Common law has interfaced with land for centuries. There are reams of cases which give depth to the statutory interpretion of the laws in such areas as say easements, eminent domain and registration (including say Canada) which can be used as authorative rulings commonly on both sides of the Atlantic.
Indeed there are impacts from Europe. For instance in the UK, the ECHR has tweaked the balance of rights between pure possession of the land and various other rights - such as Article 8 family protection (Pillock case).
But property rights in both areas are protected except in the case of pressing social need. Ensuring that , as per a radio ad, the local library is kept going goes not strike me as particularly needful as there is no voter involvement in deciding what these social needs are. For instance in the state of California there are initiatives to curb excess property taxes that were successful and in New Hampshire a direct democracy ensure that funds raised from a property tax are effectively and locally spent. These are lessons that can be learnt from the US.

Yes, there is common law in relation to land law, but most of the stuff you described is actually stemming from Equity. Almost all of our law in relation to land comes from England rather than the US (Canada and the US both getting their laws from England, Canada moreso these days than the US).

oscarBravo

blackiebest wrote: »

IMO it is each and every one of your patriotic duty to not pay this tax. Nor the 'broadcast tax' proposed.

Where does income tax fall in the "patriotic duty" stakes? Do I have a patriotic duty to pay it, or withhold it? How about VAT? Motor tax? Corporation tax?

Are you opposed to the payment of all taxes, or just these two? If just the two you mentioned, can you explain what it is about those taxes in particular that makes evading them a patriotic duty?

We, as a people need to take our country back.

Take it back from whom?

It is wrong and IMO you are 'less Irish' if you register and pay this tax REGARDLESS of your circumstances.

Who are you to decide that paying a tax makes a person "less Irish"? That's one of the most arrogant things I've heard in the course of this debate, and that's saying something.

You are giving it to a government who are incapable of not wasting money/resources. They are not fit to run a bath! Please see this.

I'm giving income tax, VAT, motor tax and corporation tax to the same government. Will I become more Irish in your eyes if I evade those taxes as well?

The time has come to make a principled stand, this is the opportunity, DO IT NOW! Everything has to be changed and 'fixed'

How do you propose to "fix" the country through tax evasion?

seamus

RandomName2 wrote: »

Huh? It's going to be around that in about a year's time, not ten. This isn't the property tax, this is just a temporary household tax.
Note the following (from MoneyGuide):

To be fair, by 2013 the average property price will stand below €150,000, so most people will still only be paying the smallest band.

Whatever the lowest cut-off point is, I can see a lot of people declaring their property at 1 euro below that

ednwireland

i dont see why it should be out of my bank account before its due, i'll pay but not before last week of march

RichardAnd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Doesn't look like there were too many people there who would even be liable for the household charge. Except of course the Gardai who have to put up with that kind of crap.

Those people are expressing their opinions which they have every right to do. To dismiss another person's views as "crap" simply because you do not agree is incredibly ignorant and arrogant. The attitude you've just displayed is the type of cynicism that really gets on my nerves. If you don't agree with them, that's perfectly fine but there is no need to lambaste them.

femur61

I was printing of the forms to pay, two houses, and then Oli Rehn was on 6.1 saying we will not get a reduction on the promissory notes because we have taken a commitment to. In the same bulletin, Spain said they will not meet their targets and that’s OK, the EU will sort them out. Greece has literally defaulted, thats grand we'l bend over backwards for them and are still in the Euro. Now I am seriously thinking of not registering, we are such mugs, no wonder the English stayed for 800 years.

blackiebest

IMO it is each and every one of your patriotic duty to not pay this tax. Nor the 'broadcast tax' proposed. We, as a people need to take our country back. It is wrong and IMO you are 'less Irish' if you register and pay this tax REGARDLESS of your circumstances. You are giving it to a government who are incapable of not wasting money/resources. They are not fit to run a bath! Please see this. The time has come to make a principled stand, this is the opportunity, DO IT NOW! Everything has to be changed and 'fixed'

[Deleted User]

zumi wrote: »

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

Doesn't look like there were too many people there who would even be liable for the household charge. Except of course the Gardai who have to put up with that kind of crap.

BlaasForRafa

zumi wrote: »

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

looks like the usual bunch of hard lefties that always turn up at these things. They probably got sick of of the Corrib Gas protest at this stage.

zumi

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

slimjimmc

For anyone who is of the opinion that your personal data in the ESB or anywhere else is guaranteed to be securely locked away from the prying eyes of the tax collector I suggest you brace yourself before reading paragraph 8b of the Data Protection Act 1988.

8.—Any restrictions in this Act on the disclosure of personal data do not apply if the disclosure is—
:
:
(b) required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State, a local authority or a health board, in any case in which the application of those restrictions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters aforesaid,

It doesn't mean they've cart-blanche access, just that they can get it if other methods cant.

meglome

Steven81 wrote: »

Will be good to see if the government releases figures showing were the money they have received is being spent in local areas and not just given to our friends in Europe.

It's not being given to our friends in Europe. The troika are giving us the 15 billion a year we overspend and they are also giving us the money to pay the bondholders etc. So even if we never paid another bond etc we'd still need to borrow up to 15 billion from the Troika. I've been asking people for months supporting the campaign not to pay how we fund country and all I get is a smokescreen of nonsense.

southsiderosie

psychward wrote: »

What a scumbag attitude and an extremely low dirty cheap shot too . 95% of those on the dole were working for well over a decade until the real moochers in the ECB, banks and politics stole their jobs and opportunities. The moochers on the dole are those trying to steal even more money from the people which they have already paid tax on. The real dole is in Leinster House, the Senate, the banks and the state boards where Enda is paid more than President Obama. The real moochers are also whereever a retired scumbag is to be found on an inflation busting pension while those on disability etc have their meagre incomes cut. Then of course you have a long line of moochers working in RTE , the farmers dole etc. And you have the nerve to call people crying out for work moochers ? People with your attitude are one symptom of whats wrong with this country.

psychward wrote: »

you're a troublemaker who should go write for the tabloids which nobody is buying . The whole system of governance is corrupt and not above board and everyone knows it apart from you who have your head stuck where the sun doesn't shine .

psychward wrote: »

Its hilarious to watch what an extremely bad loser you are while trying to convince people to pay this unfair tax. It seems you will stoop to anything to try and distract from the weakness of your arguments.

MOD NOTE:

These kinds of posts are neither welcome nor appropriate.

Don't post in this thread again.