What is religion?

kylith wrote: »

Having no religion means you have no religion.

It's not as easy as that. "Non-denominational" christians frequently self-identify as having "no religion", despite the fact that many are fundamentalist christians.

I seem to remember that jakkass/philologos self-identifies as having "no religion".

:rolleyes:

kylith

robindch wrote: »

It's not as easy as that. "Non-denominational" christians frequently self-identify as having "no religion", despite the fact that many are fundamentalist christians.

I seem to remember that jakkass/philologos self-identifies as having "no religion".

:rolleyes:

Some people just can't make up their minds, can they?

kylith wrote: »

Some people just can't make up their minds, can they?

I think it's more that certain denominations of christianity feel they can only assert the total supremacy of the bible by officially denying that they are interpreting it for their client population. The word "denomination" implying that there's some interpretation to which they're predisposed.

Obviously, the leaders are interpreting the bible...

JonPierson

kylith wrote: »

Some people just can't make up their minds, can they?

I think they're called 'agnostics'.

[Deleted User]

kylith wrote: »

If someone told me they had no television, I wouldn't find it an unclear statement.

unless you're a tv licence inspector

robindch wrote: »

It's not as easy as that. "Non-denominational" christians frequently self-identify as having "no religion", despite the fact that many are fundamentalist christians.

I seem to remember that jakkass/philologos self-identifies as having "no religion".

:rolleyes:

I go to an evangelical CofE church in central London right now.

What I have said is that I rarely give myself the title as being "religious". I don't put a lot of trust in ritualism. I believe in Jesus, and I strive to follow Him with God's help. That's pretty much what I say. I also don't identify strongly with any one denomination. I argue for Biblically sound Christianity. That's what I try to do. It doesn't particularly matter to me what church it is, as long as it teaches the truth faithfully.

the culture of deference wrote: »

as I said before, no religion until you are 18

I decided to become a Christian when I was 17. Should the State have clamped down on my freethought?

philologos wrote: »

I go to an evangelical CofE church in central London right now.

What I have said is that I rarely give myself the title as being "religious". I don't put a lot of trust in ritualism. I believe in Jesus, and I strive to follow Him with God's help. That's pretty much what I say. I also don't identify strongly with any one denomination. I argue for Biblically sound Christianity. That's what I try to do. It doesn't particularly matter to me what church it is, as long as it teaches the truth faithfully.

but Christianity is a religion, even if you don't tie yourself to any particular branch of Christianity.

I decided to become a Christian when I was 17. Should the State have clamped down on my freethought?

I imagine the comment was about indoctrinating children into religion, and not someone freely choosing to join a religion.

koth: I agree, that Christianity is a religion.

The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

I don't really define myself as "religious" though. I find that as a label, that doesn't particularly match who I am. It sounds Pharasaic to me. That religion is about a strict observance of rituals. My faith couldn't be any further from this. It is simply about trying to live in response to Jesus' saving death on the cross for me. I also wouldn't call myself "devout" or "pious", as I'm neither of those things. I'm simply a sinner saved by Jesus' death and resurrection.

So, simply put, I find it better just to refer to myself as a Christian, rather than having a load of other connotations that I don't feel are the most accurate being added on in the process.

By the by, it's a fundamental denial of liberty to deny parents the right to share their values with their children. Every parent does it and every parent will do it. I don't see why parents teaching their children about Christianity is somehow a bad thing that should be illegal. If I was a Christian parent and that was the law, I would have to disobey it as that would be wrong. This isn't "indoctrination" as far as I can tell.

[Deleted User]

philologos wrote: »

I don't really define myself as "religious" though.

well the rest of us would

joseph brand

philologos wrote: »

I decided to become a Christian when I was 17. Should the State have clamped down on my freethought?

I agree with Koth's comment on this. But I'm wondering what a 17 year old is doing getting involved in religion.

The stuff that my friends and I were doing at 17 would make baby jebus cry. Some of us even stayed up late, like half past the eleven. Tony Lynch knows what I'm talking about. Tony Lynch was wild!

Here's a photo of him from my old phone.
http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsG/tve44284-00000304-897.gif

bluewolf wrote: »

well the rest of us would

That's fine, but I guess the authority in terms of forming my identity lies at my door, not yours

philologos wrote: »

koth: I agree, that Christianity is a religion.

I don't really define myself as "religious" though. I find that as a label, that doesn't particularly match who I am. It sounds Pharasaic to me. That religion is about a strict observance of rituals. My faith couldn't be any further from this. It is simply about trying to live in response to Jesus' saving death on the cross for me. I also wouldn't call myself "devout" or "pious", as I'm neither of those things. I'm simply a sinner saved by Jesus' death and resurrection.

So, simply put, I find it better just to refer to myself as a Christian, rather than having a load of other connotations that I don't feel are the most accurate being added on in the process.

just so you know, most people wouldn't see a difference between Christian or religious especially here in Ireland. You say you're Christian, 99.99999999999999% of people will think you're religious.

By the by, it's a fundamental denial of liberty to deny parents the right to share their values with their children. Every parent does it and every parent will do it. I don't see why parents teaching their children about Christianity is somehow a bad thing that should be illegal. If I was a Christian parent and that was the law, I would have to disobey it as that would be wrong. This isn't "indoctrination" as far as I can tell.

Sharing your values is fine, but imposing those values on them is indoctrination, i.e. choosing their religion for them.

philologos wrote: »

That's fine, but I guess the authority in terms of forming my identity lies at my door, not yours

that's fine, but you don't get to redefine the English language to suit yourself.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

That's fine, but I guess the authority in terms of forming my identity lies at my door, not yours

You seem to define religion as ritualistic religion. While heavily ritualistic religion is certain still religion, it isn't really a case that to be religious you must be ritualistic. That wouldn't be a particular common notion. Religion would encompass the following of commonly held established beliefs and doctrines, whether they involve ritual or not.

The thing that makes you religious is that you share commonly held and passed on supernatural beliefs that are structured and organised by your religion (which is to say by members of the religion that came before you).

A Christian here will share very similar (relatively speaking) notions to a Christian there, precisely because the religion has gathered its commonly held beliefs and structured them into books like the Bible, that are then shared as any author sources for what it means to be a member of this religion.

How ritualistic you are in that pursuit is rather secondary.

koth wrote: »

just so you know, most people wouldn't see a difference between Christian or religious especially here in Ireland. You say you're Christian, 99.99999999999999% of people will think you're religious.

That's fine, but I wouldn't agree with them.

koth wrote: »

Sharing your values is fine, but imposing those values on them is indoctrination, i.e. choosing their religion for them.

Ultimately whether or not parents like it. They will never choose their children's faith. That works both ways. Although Christian parent's can share their faith with their children throughout their lives, and through church and so on. Ultimately there will hit a point in their lives when they have to decide for themselves.

Likewise, in the case of other parents. I have heard of quite a few parents who don't approve of their children's faith in Christianity. Quite a few more since moving here, but there are cases pretty much everywhere. So it does work two ways. There will be a point when people will decide things which are different to what their parents expect. That's a part of growing up.

philologos wrote: »

Ultimately whether or not parents like it. They will never choose their children's faith. That works both ways. Although Christian parent's can share their faith with their children throughout their lives, and through church and so on. Ultimately there will hit a point in their lives when they have to decide for themselves.

For the first 12-16 years (as an average) the parents raise their kids as Catholic (using Ireland as an example) thus choosing the religion for the kids. The kids eventually decide whether to remain a member of the religion or to look elsewhere, be it a different religion or none.

Likewise, in the case of other parents. I have heard of quite a few parents who don't approve of their children's faith in Christianity. Quite a few more since moving here, but there are cases pretty much everywhere. So it does work two ways. There will be a point when people will decide things which are different to what their parents expect. That's a part of growing up.

and I'd say the same thing there, parents shouldn't indoctrinate their kids. Educate them and let them decide for themselves.

philologos wrote: »

What I have said is that I rarely give myself the title as being "religious". I don't put a lot of trust in ritualism.

A religion isn't a "ritual" - it's a far wider concept than that and will typically include a belief in a distant utopia, a shining path to reach it, a set of infallible ideas often referred to simply as Truth with a capital-T, a sealed-worldview which typically includes just one book or just one leader (or both), a clear demarcation between a blessed Us and a heathen Them, a belief that oneself is inspired above and beyond the greater portion of the population. And so on. In these, much more specific senses which tend to be used by psychologists and sociologists, yes, I believe you are intensely religious.

philologos wrote: »

It doesn't particularly matter to me what church it is, as long as it teaches the truth faithfully.

I think it would be more accurate to say that it doesn't matter what the church claims, so long as you believe its claims -- that's the nature of religion: the subject matter is irrelevant, the belief and its propagation is everything.

koth wrote: »

For the first 12-16 years (as an average) the parents raise their kids as Catholic (using Ireland as an example) thus choosing the religion for the kids. The kids eventually decide whether to remain a member of the religion or to look elsewhere, be it a different religion or none.

I don't agree. Telling your child about Jesus, or bringing your child to church is not "deciding" anything for them. They will make that decision for themselves at a later stage.

koth wrote: »

and I'd say the same thing there, parents shouldn't indoctrinate their kids. Educate them and let them decide for themselves.

I don't think it is indoctrination for parents to naturally tell their children about their values and encourage them to know God. Ultimately, it is their decision, in between is preparing them for the road of life. Atheists can complain all they like, but simply put, they will do very much the same for their own children, they will encourage them to do what they perceive is best. It's called caring about ones kids.

robindch wrote: »

I think it would be more accurate to say that it doesn't matter what the church claims, so long as you believe its claims -- that's the nature of religion: the subject matter is irrelevant, the belief and its propagation is everything.

That's where I think you're wrong. The subject matter is fundamentally important. Institutions which deny or compromise the subject matter are not worthy of being followed as far as I can tell. Churches irrespective of which they are, if they honour the Gospel (the subject matter) are crucially important.

As for any demarcation. There is no demarcation, as far as I can tell other than what you've decided to do. According to the Gospel, I'm a sinner like everyone else is.

philologos wrote: »

That's where I think you're wrong. The subject matter is fundamentally important. Institutions which deny or compromise the subject matter are not worthy of being followed as far as I can tell.

You missed the point I was making.

Religions are there because people find them convincing and religions are especially excellent at convincing people of complete nonsense. To a religion, the ideas don't really matter all that much, as you can see from the bland, superficial nonsense that's put out by the largest and most successful religious outlets these days (the megachurches).

What is vital to these religions is the belief that the words mean something, hopefully profound. As is the replication of the religion to the next human host.

philologos wrote: »

I don't agree. Telling your child about Jesus, or bringing your child to church is not "deciding" anything for them. They will make that decision for themselves at a later stage.

You don't agree with something I didn't say?

Baptising an infant is choosing their religion for them, and I consider that to be indoctrination.

I don't think it is indoctrination for parents to naturally tell their children about their values and encourage them to know God. Ultimately, it is their decision, in between is preparing them for the road of life. Atheists can complain all they like, but simply put, they will do very much the same for their own children, they will encourage them to do what they perceive is best. It's called caring about ones kids.

And that's not discussing the point I made that choosing a religion, i.e. infant baptism is indoctrination. Now if you want to discuss something else, fine, but don't pretend that you're addressing what I've posted.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

I argue for Biblically sound Christianity.

Really? Where? I have never seen you do it. I HAVE seen you declare there is a god and declare that atheism makes no sense to you. Other than declaring those two things, I have seen you argue nothing. And in fact the one time you even tried you ran for the hills when all your arguments were quashed.

Newaglish

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Really? Where? I have never seen you do it. I HAVE seen you declare there is a god and declare that atheism makes no sense to you. Other than declaring those two things, I have seen you argue nothing. And in fact the one time you even tried you ran for the hills when all your arguments were quashed.

Just quoting this because you are allegedly on ignore. (if I remember correctly)

oceanclub

Given that thread is rather important and informative, can I ask that anything relating to philologos' personal metaphysics be diverted somewhere else?

P.

joseph brand

philologos wrote: »

I don't agree. Telling your child about Jesus, or bringing your child to church is not "deciding" anything for them. They will make that decision for themselves at a later stage.

Are you serious? Apart from baptism, communion, confirmation, school prayers, school plays (involving 3 wise men etc), priest's visits to classrooms, prayers before lunch, prayers before bed and Sunday mass, yeah you're probably right. It's not exactly 'pushing' it on the little kids. Although, it's best to brainwash them when they are young. Kids are notoriously bad at forming articulate, well thought out, reasoned arguments. Suckers.

If some muslim told your kids all about how great Allah is or Muhammad, you would be fine? What about a gang of mormons trying to convert your kids? No big deal I suppose.

philologos wrote: »

I don't think it is indoctrination for parents to naturally tell their children about their values and encourage them to know God. It's called caring about ones kids.

I'm sure you could teach them values without having to dig out a 2,000 year old book. Without it, you wouldn't know right from wrong? You have little 'faith' in yourself.

philologos wrote: »

According to the Gospel, I'm a sinner like everyone else is.

How is everyone a sinner? Just because we were born? Or did we all commit crimes?

According to the Gospel some goat herders living in the desert, in the Middle East, thousands of years ago, I'm a sinner like everyone else is.
FYP.