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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Daysha

2009 - 2011 thread here

This is our year

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The blue blaa

Why are so many pinning their hopes on the return of hutchison,he's yet to prove himself as a county hurler really I can't understand it and as for Maurice he's a fella carries a lot of hype but doesn't deliver when it matters most. Richie Foley is a good player I look forward to seeing him back alright.

lovelypoint

The blue blaa wrote: »

Why are so many pinning their hopes on the return of hutchison,he's yet to prove himself as a county hurler really I can't understand it and as for Maurice he's a fella carries a lot of hype but doesn't deliver when it matters most. Richie Foley is a good player I look forward to seeing him back alright.

For what its worth, I do not think anyone is pinning our season on the aforementioned players, or at least that is not the impression I have gotten.

Hutchinson has shown promise at full back and is an option there, but moreover in a changing half back line, his club appearances have marked him out as a half back with quite a bit of promise potentially. Whether Michael Ryan and co. play him there is another matter though.

Agree about the hype about Maurice, he has to prove himself at intercounty level, but once again is an option in a half forward line not exactly overflowing with options.

In any case, what is wrong with keeping an eye on the injury situation..

abbeysideFB4L

Colaiste na nDeise to play in a quarter final in the Croke Cup, yet the winners of Leinster and Connacht straight through to semis! with CnD playin the losers of Leinsters, it seems like they have the toughest draw

deisebhoy17

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

Colaiste na nDeise to play in a quarter final in the Croke Cup, yet the winners of Leinster and Connacht straight through to semis! with CnD playin the losers of Leinsters, it seems like they have the toughest draw

All the others are schools in their own right surprised Cna D allowed compete.

abbeysideFB4L

yes but put together both schools have appox 600 boys between them, compared with other schools, like de la salle for example this is still relatively small

deisebhoy17

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

yes but put together both schools have appox 600 boys between them, compared with other schools, like de la salle for example this is still relatively small

Not the point CnaD isnt a school dont see how they can compete in Harty anyway. If there was a combination of Cork schools or Tipp schools that werent deemed big enough theyd probably run away with it

alllcounty

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Not the point CnaD isnt a school dont see how they can compete in Harty anyway. If there was a combination of Cork schools or Tipp schools that werent deemed big enough theyd probably run away with it

Dublin colleges won it in 2006. You sound like a begrudger. They have done the county proud so far, only the 4th time the Harty cup was won by a waterford team. Best of luck to them in the next round

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Not the point CnaD isnt a school dont see how they can compete in Harty anyway. If there was a combination of Cork schools or Tipp schools that werent deemed big enough theyd probably run away with it

What schools would these be that are geographically close and both have relatively low numbers?

Talking through your hat.

PTH2009

i think Waterford GAA should enter a city team in future harty cups.

Players from Mount Sion CBS, Abbey Community College, St Pauls and Waterpark.

Then almost all the schools in Waterford would have harty cup experience

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

What schools would these be that are geographically close and both have relatively low numbers?

Talking through your hat.

Templemore and Thurles are very close, and an amalgamation of those would crush the Harty.

I dont see the problem with allowing Waterford Colleges into the Harty and Croke cups as it is good for the game, but a little suprised alright, seems to be alot of inconsistency and contradiction when it comes to amalgamations in the GAA.

alllcounty

PTH2009 wrote: »

i think Waterford GAA should enter a city team in future harty cups.

Players from Mount Sion CBS, Abbey Community College, St Pauls and Waterpark.

Then almost all the schools in Waterford would have harty cup experience

Is Abbey CC allowed play in munster or is it just outside the boundaries and do Waterpark even field gaa teams?

mickmcl09

I can see the argument for giving youngfellas from smaller schools the opportunity to play Harty hurling.
It's one of the most prestigious hurling competitions in the GAA and many of the games are of a higher standard than inter county minor games.
However, where do you draw the line with amalgamations.
Having been to Flannans in Ennis. They won 3 in a row from 88-91. I was on both panels that lost Harty finals in '92 and '93. Outsiders had a hugh issue with Flannans dominance at the time, but they forget that it's different lads on the team each year.hence the rule that you had to be in a school for at least 1 academic year before you're eligible to play Harty for your school. Flannans no longer has a boarding school as well which always provided the school with county minors from surrounding counties.
While it was great to see Dublin colleges success albeit at Flannans expense, it lacked a sense of real achievement for any school in particular in Dublin. Any county player will tell you there's nothing like winning with your club. Same goes for school competitions. There's nothing like winning with your school mates as distinct from achieving it with another school, those victories strike me as a little hollow.
Amalgamations take away from the prestigiousness of competitions. A picture of a winning almgamated school winning team means very little as distinct from looking at one where all those in the picture are from the school. Seems petty, I know but you should walk down the hall in Flannans with all those pictures. The nostalgia, pride and sense of achievement for any of those guys up on the wall is unreal. It just wouldn't have the same value if half the lads up on the pictures were from another school, I'm sorry!
I'm sure former students of North Mon, Limerick CBS, Fermoy, Thurles CBS and the likes would feel the same. Schools that are steeped in GAA history.

hardybuck

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I can see the argument for giving youngfellas from smaller schools the opportunity to play Harty hurling.
It's one of the most prestigious hurling competitions in the GAA and many of the games are of a higher standard than inter county minor games.
However, where do you draw the line with amalgamations.
Having been to Flannans in Ennis. They won 3 in a row from 88-91. I was on both panels that lost Harty finals in '92 and '93. Outsiders had a hugh issue with Flannans dominance at the time, but they forget that it's different lads on the team each year.hence the rule that you had to be in a school for at least 1 academic year before you're eligible to play Harty for your school. Flannans no longer has a boarding school as well which always provided the school with county minors from surrounding counties.
While it was great to see Dublin colleges success albeit at Flannans expense, it lacked a sense of real achievement for any school in particular in Dublin. Any county player will tell you there's nothing like winning with your club. Same goes for school competitions. There's nothing like winning with your school mates as distinct from achieving it with another school, those victories strike me as a little hollow.
Amalgamations take away from the prestigiousness of competitions. A picture of a winning almgamated school winning team means very little as distinct from looking at one where all those in the picture are from the school. Seems petty, I know but you should walk down the hall in Flannans with all those pictures. The nostalgia, pride and sense of achievement for any of those guys up on the wall is unreal. It just wouldn't have the same value if half the lads up on the pictures were from another school, I'm sorry!
I'm sure former students of North Mon, Limerick CBS, Fermoy, Thurles CBS and the likes would feel the same. Schools that are steeped in GAA history.

Valid point, but the likes of Mount Sion, Waterpark, Abbey CC, St Pauls and even Newtown will never get an opportunity to play on a Harty Cup team at the moment. If 20 lads out of those schools get to step up and play at a decent standard, it would be better than 20 lads never getting the chance to do so.

fricatus

hardybuck wrote: »

Valid point, but the likes of Mount Sion, Waterpark, Abbey CC, St Pauls and even Newtown will never get an opportunity to play on a Harty Cup team at the moment. If 20 lads out of those schools get to step up and play at a decent standard, it would be better than 20 lads never getting the chance to do so.

I understand what you mean, but that's the same dilemma as the "Henry Shefflin from Bagenalstown" faces, because he'll never win an All-Ireland medal with Carlow. That's sport, and lads have to learn that lesson at some point in their lives - it might as well be early on.

I'd much rather see lads from Mount Sion and Waterpark miss out on Harty, and then be spurred on to win the All-Ireland for their county. Otherwise they could end up like Ross O'Carroll-Kelly winning the "S" at 17 and then going on to be "the best player never to play for Ireland".

To take the argument to its logical, if absurd, conclusion, it's like saying that we should pitch in with Kilkenny from now on because Ken McGrath didn't win an AI medal.

hardybuck

fricatus wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but that's the same dilemma as the "Henry Shefflin from Bagenalstown" faces, because he'll never win an All-Ireland medal with Carlow. That's sport, and lads have to learn that lesson at some point in their lives - it might as well be early on.

I'd much rather see lads from Mount Sion and Waterpark miss out on Harty, and then be spurred on to win the All-Ireland for their county. Otherwise they could end up like Ross O'Carroll-Kelly winning the "S" at 17 and then going on to be "the best player never to play for Ireland".

To take the argument to its logical, if absurd, conclusion, it's like saying that we should pitch in with Kilkenny from now on because Ken McGrath didn't win an AI medal.

I think regardless of winning the 'S' or not, Ross still didn't have the dedication to fulfill his undoubted potential. The pints of Special K and the women would have consumed him either way.

My attitude is that the more lads who can get up to compete at a higher standard the better.

abbeysideFB4L

premierstone wrote: »

Templemore and Thurles are very close, and an amalgamation of those would crush the Harty.

I dont see the problem with allowing Waterford Colleges into the Harty and Croke cups as it is good for the game, but a little suprised alright, seems to be alot of inconsistency and contradiction when it comes to amalgamations in the GAA.

There 15km apart, the friary and cbs are 3km apart, plus you'd have to consider the size of the schools! I feel we shouldnt dwell on this and accept the magnificant achievement by Cnd

premierstone

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

There 15km apart, the friary and cbs are 3km apart, plus you'd have to consider the size of the schools! I feel we shouldnt dwell on this and accept the magnificant achievement by Cnd

15 km of rural countryside, they have lads from the same clubs playing with both schools, I agree though its deflecting from the great win and I say that as a former Nenagh CBS man!

deisedude

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I can see the argument for giving youngfellas from smaller schools the opportunity to play Harty hurling.
It's one of the most prestigious hurling competitions in the GAA and many of the games are of a higher standard than inter county minor games.
However, where do you draw the line with amalgamations.
Having been to Flannans in Ennis. They won 3 in a row from 88-91. I was on both panels that lost Harty finals in '92 and '93. Outsiders had a hugh issue with Flannans dominance at the time, but they forget that it's different lads on the team each year.hence the rule that you had to be in a school for at least 1 academic year before you're eligible to play Harty for your school. Flannans no longer has a boarding school as well which always provided the school with county minors from surrounding counties.
While it was great to see Dublin colleges success albeit at Flannans expense, it lacked a sense of real achievement for any school in particular in Dublin. Any county player will tell you there's nothing like winning with your club. Same goes for school competitions. There's nothing like winning with your school mates as distinct from achieving it with another school, those victories strike me as a little hollow.
Amalgamations take away from the prestigiousness of competitions. A picture of a winning almgamated school winning team means very little as distinct from looking at one where all those in the picture are from the school. Seems petty, I know but you should walk down the hall in Flannans with all those pictures. The nostalgia, pride and sense of achievement for any of those guys up on the wall is unreal. It just wouldn't have the same value if half the lads up on the pictures were from another school, I'm sorry!
I'm sure former students of North Mon, Limerick CBS, Fermoy, Thurles CBS and the likes would feel the same. Schools that are steeped in GAA history.

Some of those schools you mentioned which are steeped in GAA history were poaching young lads left, right and centre to win hartys. Far hollower achievement in my estimation

mickmcl09

I don't think anybody here doesn't accept that it is a magnificent achievement.
Posters are simply making a case for amalgamations not being allowed, full stop.
Amalgamations were introduced originally as a means of GAA clubs who hadn't enough players to field a team to throw their lot in with another club.

Yes, in recent times we've had amalgamated intermediate teams competing at senior level which is singularly the only case for doing likewise with secondary schools in regard to the Harty.

In a practical sense, secondary school is for education first and foremost (not sport), secondly, fellas of 16/17/18 have lots of hurling competitions to keep them busy and an extra one is not going to make a blind bit of difference to their ability to hurl. Worse case scenario they get 3 group games, best case they go all the way. We already have the county vocational schools competition. We don't need another one in the Harty cup. Amalgamating schools is not conducive to doing study as one or both schools have to travel to a common training ground it's all cutting into study time. An amalgated school who does well in Harty, invariably do well in the same season on their own in 'B' or 'C' grades which amounts to too many matches as the best 7/8 players play Harty, Minor Club/County, U 21 and Adult games not to mention dual players.

IMO, amalgamations will dissolve the prestigiousness of Harty Cup.
If parents and their 13/14 year olds feel that strongly about playing Harty in and around the City at least, well send them to De la Salle. It's the same in KK. Some parents will send their fella to Kierans even though they pass several schools to get there. It's the same in Ennis with some students going from the opposite side of town to St. Flannans instead of the CBS.

Flannans used to be called the United Nations in hurling circles such was the distaste for their success. It's worse what's going on nowadays with schools electing to amalgamate.

Fair play to those young fellas for winning a Harty. I hope they really treasure it because there are young fellas starting in Flannans, Fermoy, Thurles and the likes every year that would give their arm to win a Harty!!!!! when they get to leaving cert and that's why they go to those schools, the same as the ruggers go to Blackrock etc.

It still doesn't make amalgamation right.

mickmcl09

deisedude wrote: »

Some of those schools you mentioned which are steeped in GAA history were poaching young lads left, right and centre to win hartys. Far hollower achievement in my estimation

Have you any examples? Or is that just here say?

If you knew the rules of Harty cup, you'd know that is no longer the case. Re: The Gantley's from Galway who wanted to play with Flannans in the late 90's.

You have to be attending a school for more than 1 full academic year to participate on that's schools behalf in Harty Cup.

premierstone

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Have you any examples? Or is that just here say?

If you knew the rules of Harty cup, you'd know that is no longer the case. Re: The Gantley's from Galway who wanted to play with Flannans in the late 90's.

You have to be attending a school for more than 1 full academic year to participate on that's schools behalf in Harty Cup.

Ah come on mick it has been rife for years and the new rules do nothing to change that only remove the possibility of guys going to a school to repeat the leaving cert to play Harty. Thurles this year had 2 players playing with them that were from Clonmel and two lads for KK. North Mon, Flannans and Ard Scioll Ris are and always have been doing this aswell.

abbeysideFB4L

i feel sorry for poor jamie barron!

mickmcl09

It also stops post junior Certs from changing school just for Harty as it means they have to spend an entire 4th year in school where they wouldn't be permitted to play, as was the case with Gantley.

The schools aren't driving the 'recruitment'. These fellas dream of winning Harty Cups from 13/14 and the parents will make the sacrifices to make it happen especially if it also happens to be the auld fellas 'Alma mater' (excuse the spelling).

In Waterfords case there's kids in South KK going to Kierans and they're living much closer to De la Salle in the city and the Abbey in Ferrybank which is highly thought of academically and I personally know 2 such instances.

Could be argued that it was rife in the 80's and maybe 90's but it's no more the a preconception now.

deisebhoy17

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

There 15km apart, the friary and cbs are 3km apart, plus you'd have to consider the size of the schools! I feel we shouldnt dwell on this and accept the magnificant achievement by Cnd

That makes no odds the name of the team is 'Colaisti na Deise' meaning waterford colleges it just so happens that the only 2 schools represented this year are the Brothers and the Friary. It included Blackwater CS until they went on their own a couple years back and has been represented by students from Ring and Kilmac colleges in the past

Im delighted for the lads aswell by the way

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

What schools would these be that are geographically close and both have relatively low numbers?

Talking through your hat.

I never mentioned anything about schools necessarily having to be geographically close. That is not my point anyway, my view is that it devalues the Harty Cup a bit with combined colleges involved.

Plus whats stopping other schools not quite up to Harty standard from getting together with other school(s) within a reasonable proximity? theyll surely look at CnD and ask why cant they do it aswell. You could have a group of North Cork schools combined Mallow, Mitchelstown, Charleville, Doneraile ect and I can gurantee theyd do a lot of damage. Cork city aswell. the reason Cork teams arent as strong is that there are so many different schools now and the talent is more spread out., Limerick, Tipp ect aswell.

Look Im not begrudging the Waterford lads success for a second its not their fault. Id be of the same view in Leinster with Dublin colleges. Dont be surprised to see a few more combined teams next year from different areas and a few more the year after

deisebhoy17

alllcounty wrote: »

Dublin colleges won it in 2006. You sound like a begrudger. They have done the county proud so far, only the 4th time the Harty cup was won by a waterford team. Best of luck to them in the next round

Not a begrudger at all im delighted for waterford hurling. Just expressing my view from the wider scheme of things

Deise Hurler

Abbey CC are part of Kilkenny VEC and compete in the Leinster Championships, so players from that school could never play in a harty team. Dont know how much hurling goes on in Waterpark and Mount Sion, but would think its very little.
In my oponion an amalgamation of Tramore CBS, St. Declans Kilmacthomas and St. Pauls would do quiet well in the harty cup but it wouldn't be easy to organise due to the distances between each school.

Deise Hurler

mickmcl09 wrote: »

You have to be attending a school for more than 1 full academic year to participate on that's schools behalf in Harty Cup.

Not any more.
Sure didn't Shane McNulty move from Tramore CBS to DLS this year and play harty cup, Eamonn Murphy did likewise last year. Noel and Owen Connors would previously have played harty for DLS straight after moving from Ramsgrange CS.

deisedude

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Have you any examples? Or is that just here say?

If you knew the rules of Harty cup, you'd know that is no longer the case. Re: The Gantley's from Galway who wanted to play with Flannans in the late 90's.

You have to be attending a school for more than 1 full academic year to participate on that's schools behalf in Harty Cup.

Ah go way outta that. The "boarding" schools approached talented lads and gave them free board and other perks. Long after the 90's this carry on was going on. You want an example, Andrew O'Shaughnessy went to St. Colmans in Fermoy and he is from Killmallock which is 40km away. Now the fact boarding is gone in most schools is about the only reason this doesn't continue

doz

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about schools necessarily having to be geographically close. That is not my point anyway, my view is that it devalues the Harty Cup a bit with combined colleges involved.

Plus whats stopping other schools not quite up to Harty standard from getting together with other school(s) within a reasonable proximity? theyll surely look at CnD and ask why cant they do it aswell. You could have a group of North Cork schools combined Mallow, Mitchelstown, Charleville, Doneraile ect and I can gurantee theyd do a lot of damage. Cork city aswell. the reason Cork teams arent as strong is that there are so many different schools now and the talent is more spread out., Limerick, Tipp ect aswell.

Look Im not begrudging the Waterford lads success for a second its not their fault. Id be of the same view in Leinster with Dublin colleges. Dont be surprised to see a few more combined teams next year from different areas and a few more the year after

I think it is worth noting, and I am not sure that all people who have contributed to this debate understand, that Colaiste na nDeise is made up of two small schools from the same town (Dungarvan), which combined have a total of c. 600 male students. This is in no way comparable to what some posters are suggesting about schools/colleges from Tipp, Cork etc potentially amalgamating. In fact, at this point I think that the team should be renamed Colaisti Dun Garbhan, as this is in truth what the team now is. These players are representing a town in the same way that players from the larger schools in Nenagh, Templemoore etc are. I think there is a certain element of begrudgery going on which is completely unwarranted simply because an amalgamation of two very small schools have taken on and beaten some of the 'mighty' schools who traditionally did well in the competition. The fact of the matter is that this is a fantastic effort from a wonderfully talented group of players which deserves plaudits from all corners of the county and beyond.