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Primary school college course and atheism

number10a

So, as I've mentioned on here a couple of times, I'm nearly finished the H. Dip. for primary school teaching. We have our online religion exam on Wednesday and I was going through the demo exam to make sure it works. Some of the questions that will be on it are actually shocking!! I cannot believe that a college in Ireland in 2012 is allowed to preach such shìt.

I've attached two sample questions from the exam for your viewing pleasure. The answer that I will have to choose to get the marks for the first attachment is "True". And in the second attachment, asking which statement is false, I will have to choose the one about Hinduism. So apparently, the one about atheism is true.

I am actually in shock. How can something that is so subjective and open to opinion be included in an exam in a modern college??? I could understand something like "Atheist humanism has produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed. Discuss." But actually putting a True/False option there?? There is no notable incident in history where someone actually went out and said "Oh those darn believers! I'll kill them all!!" I can think of plenty of examples where the reverse happened though.

I knew what I was letting myself in for when deciding to train as a primary school teacher in Ireland, but I didn't think it was this bad. I had already made up my mind that I was leaving Ireland as soon as I'm qualified (for a lot of reasons, teaching of religion being a more minor one), but this just confirms it even more. Effectively, I'm expected to spout this shìte out to a child if I ever teach in a Catholic school. Unbelievable.

/rant

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gawker

oceanclub wrote: »

I got a reply from the college itself. None of it answers any of the questions I originally had, just talking in generalities:

AFAIK, the exam questions are true/false yes/no answers for which you receive marks for the "right" answer, correct? In which case, how is "Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content" correct?

P.

Just got that same reply. I just laughed at the part you mentioned. The statement:

-makes no sense because true/false questions are involved
-admits that the "teachings" we saw in the online exam are indeed part of their course content

Not much we can do on this one I guess, bit I do hope the college seriously considers broadening it's worldview a little or that a secular alternative to these teaching colleges is created soon.

Galvasean

Diplomacy has failed.

Militant atheists assemble!!!

Sarky

I don't see any atheists in there...

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

I don't see any atheists in there...

When your sword has its own eyes and teeth you don't need to make sense!

kylith

oceanclub wrote: »

I got a reply from the college itself. None of it answers any of the questions I originally had, just talking in generalities:

AFAIK, the exam questions are true/false yes/no answers for which you receive marks for the "right" answer, correct? In which case, how is "Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content" correct?

P.

I got the same reply. I wonder how they reconcile "embraces an ethos and culture of inclusion and respect for diversity" with the statement in their course material that "atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed,...atheism is not a benign force in history".

It's like saying "We show the greatest respect to people of all ethnic groups, but the blacks are just a shower of wasters".

robindch

kylith wrote: »

I wonder how they reconcile "embraces an ethos and culture of inclusion and respect for diversity" with the statement in their course material that "atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed,...atheism is not a benign force in history".

Might be worth asking them how included they think you feel when you read that they identify your non-religion with Nazism.

darealtulip

more reactions today from the college:

Thank you for contacting Hibernia College with your concerns. Firstly, I would like to state that Hibernia College embraces an ethos and culture of inclusion and respect for diversity in all aspects of its work, and our student teachers and graduates teach in a wide range of schools; schools that include all faiths and other ethical programmes.

In relation to the specific points currently being discussed on various online forums, it is important to note the following:

· The multiple choice questions mentioned are part of a broader examination process which includes a written exam. In this written exam students are encouraged to discuss and debate the various points being examined. Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content, but rather their ability to discuss, debate and critique this material.
· The content of all our courses is presented to students in a way that encourages debate, critical discussion and analysis. Students attend live online tutorials and onsite workshops and are expected to contribute to tutor led discussion forums. All aspects of the religious education content are open to critique and healthy debate and students are encouraged to express their views.
· All our programmes are reviewed on an ongoing basis. This includes seeking the contribution of various relevant stakeholders. We are currently in the process of creating an advisory group representing the wide spectrum of belief systems in Ireland today to ensure that our course content continues to reflect the diversity of beliefs represented in our society. We look forward to taking advice from this board as with all our advisory boards.

Thank you again for contacting me with your concerns.

Yours sincerely,
Siobhán.

Dr. Siobhán Cahillane-McGovern
Director, Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.)

Hibernia College
2 Clare Street
Dublin 2
Ireland
Tel: +353 (0) 1 661 0168
Fax: +353 (0)1 661 0162

www.hiberniacollege.com
E-learning Age Awards Gold Medallist 201

darealtulip

From the minister

February 2012

Thank you for your recent email in relation to Hibernia College exam.

The Graduate Diploma in Primary Education offered by Hibernia College has been recognised for the purpose of qualification as a primary teacher for almost 10 years. Hibernia College is a privately-owned institution providing a privately-run course, which is not funded by the Department. Both the content of the course and any related exams are a matter for the College in the first instance. As the Teaching Council is the statutory body empowered to review and professionally accredit such programmes of initial teacher education, the issue you raised has been brought to its attention.

I hope this information is of assistance to you.

icescreamqueen

It says it all about that pathetic excuse for a teacher training college. It's a money making racquet run by the government, regardless of what they say. Rant over!

quietriot

I received the same two emails in response to the email I posted above and don't believe them to be satisfactory responses in any regard. The fact that they're now just cutting and pasting the response to anyone querying the issue shows a total lack of interest in the matter which is absolutely unacceptable.

In a bizarre way I do see this as a compliment though, they clearly recognise us non-religious as reasonable, passive, decent human beings who won't react violently, irrationally or similar in response to such a: a blatant attack on our religious choices and b: clearly not caring about said attack. The fact that it appears that only the non-religious are targeted in such a manner (comparing us to Nazis), speaks volumes about how they perceive the other religions and how they believe they would react to similar treatment.

It is ignorance at its finest but we here are all too aware that ignorance is the trait of the people in question and that when posed with questions they cannot answer themselves, they turn the other cheek in the full knowledge that we will only ever react logically and rationally.

All that being said, I do not accept either response and will be following up on the matter this weekend when I have the time to compose a relatively well thought out response addressing the further nonsense that we have received here.

I cc'd a number of media outlets in my initial email and would be interested to know if the story is actually being shown any interest. If it were Islam, Judaism or Christianity at the center of this, there would be outrage.

Have atheism Ireland picked this up at all?

darealtulip

quietriot wrote: »

.

Have atheism Ireland picked this up at all?

Yes they did, They are working on the matter. I will report how and what they are doing as soon as I can.

fisgon

Respect to those who have raised this with the college and the minister. I mean that sincerely. It's all too easy to let things like this slip, and nothing will ever change if we do.

Annoyoboy

Dades wrote: »

More like a case of...

To the Teaching Council.

And then washing their hands.

Interestingly, the president of Hibernia College is a Minister appointed member of the Teaching Council...

Galvasean

quietriot wrote: »

In a bizarre way I do see this as a compliment though, they clearly recognise us non-religious as reasonable, passive, decent human beings who won't react violently, irrationally or similar in response to such a: a blatant attack on our religious choices and b: clearly not caring about said attack. The fact that it appears that only the non-religious are targeted in such a manner (comparing us to Nazis), speaks volumes about how they perceive the other religions and how they believe they would react to similar treatment.

Judging by the amount of thanks my call for a militant assembly got I think we should take to the streets and start protesting outside places like the Hibernia College.

While dressed as space marines.

Undergod

But where will we get a Greater Daemon of Nurgle at such short notice?

Solair

I think it's high time that a secular university launched a proper primary teaching undergraduate degree.

It's absolutely insane that religious organisations are the only agencies offering primary teacher training.

For example could UCC not offer a B. Ed. and a Pg. Dip. in Primary Education? Perhaps in conjunction with Educate Together or something.

A lot of people don't necessarily want to be trained in Mary Immaculate or Saint Patrick's, Drumcondra.

A UCC programme would be ideal, particularly as Cork has no primary education training centre, yet it's our second city and UCC is a secular university without any kind of religious bias in its setup.

I can't really understand why primary education isn't taught in a mainstream university context anyway.

E.g. UCC has a major Education Department (Secondary), Psychology Department, Early Childhood Studies Dept, etc etc etc.

swampgas

Solair wrote: »

I think it's high time that a secular university launched a proper primary teaching undergraduate degree.

It's absolutely insane that religious organisations are the only agencies offering primary teacher training.

For example could UCC not offer a B. Ed. and a Pg. Dip. in Primary Education? Perhaps in conjunction with Educate Together or something.

A lot of people don't necessarily want to be trained in Mary Immaculate or Saint Patrick's, Drumcondra.

A UCC programme would be ideal, particularly as Cork has no primary education training centre, yet it's our second city and UCC is a secular university without any kind of religious bias in its setup.

I can't really understand why primary education isn't taught in a mainstream university context anyway.

E.g. UCC has a major Education Department (Secondary), Psychology Department, Early Childhood Studies Dept, etc etc etc.

I like the idea of taking teacher education away from religious institutions.

Is UCC really so secular though? When I graduated from UCC there was a mass as part of the graduation ceremony, which galled me somewhat at the time. This was back in the 80's though, maybe it has changed since.

I also remember registration - when I was asked my religion, and answered "none", the woman said "We'll put that down as Not Recorded then ...".

Sarky

I graduated from ucc last December. There was a service in the chapel for anyone interested, but totally optional. As a result most people didn't bother. Didn't catch any whiff of religion during the graduation. Unless some of the Latin bits were about god, but I doubt it. There was no problem with having no religion during registration, either.

Given the various nationalities they're dealing with, having a religious leaning would probably cost them big.

kylith

Solair wrote: »

I think it's high time that a secular university launched a proper primary teaching undergraduate degree.

It's absolutely insane that religious organisations are the only agencies offering primary teacher training.

For example could UCC not offer a B. Ed. and a Pg. Dip. in Primary Education? Perhaps in conjunction with Educate Together or something.

A lot of people don't necessarily want to be trained in Mary Immaculate or Saint Patrick's, Drumcondra.

A UCC programme would be ideal, particularly as Cork has no primary education training centre, yet it's our second city and UCC is a secular university without any kind of religious bias in its setup.

I can't really understand why primary education isn't taught in a mainstream university context anyway.

E.g. UCC has a major Education Department (Secondary), Psychology Department, Early Childhood Studies Dept, etc etc etc.

Unfortunately as long as schools are run by the RCC all teacher will have to be fully versed in Catholic indoctrination education, so will not hire secular teachers.

Solair

swampgas wrote: »

I like the idea of taking teacher education away from religious institutions.

Is UCC really so secular though? When I graduated from UCC there was a mass as part of the graduation ceremony, which galled me somewhat at the time. This was back in the 80's though, maybe it has changed since.

I also remember registration - when I was asked my religion, and answered "none", the woman said "We'll put that down as Not Recorded then ...".

That sounds like some 1980s priest hijacked it. It was popular back in the day! That sound extremely odd for UCC to be perfectly honest.

UCC graduation ceremonies are in Latin, but there is absolutely no religious aspect to them at all.

They are extremely pompous events, that are conducted in full academic robes and would have been held in the Aula Maxima (Great Hall) which has Victorian architecture which certainly looks a bit church-like, but most definitely isn't.

UCC was originally setup as Queen's College Cork (QCC) with Queen Victoria as its patron.
NUIG (UCG) also comes from the same background, as does Queen's in Belfast.

They were established as secular institutions for a very simple reason, Catholics were generally unable to attend Trinity College Dublin and there was a demand to open up education to Catholics. So, rather than create specifically Catholic institutions, they opened them up to everyone as modern secular universities.

So, when the Queen's Colleges were setup, the teaching of theology was banned by their constitutions and they were fundamentally secular institutions that were open to all people of all faiths or none.

They were condemned as "Godless institutions" by various clergy from both Catholic and Protestant churches and Pope Pius IX even said they were 'detrimental to religion'. This pushed the creation of the Catholic University of Ireland in Dublin, now UCD.

UCC remains a secular institution and has been quite ground breaking in many ways. For example, it carries out Human Stem Cell Research, which is something that might be highly problematic in certain other major universities in Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/ucc.html

It has a large and very active Atheist Society too.

http://www.uccatheists.com/

The only religious courses it has is a comparative course on the study of religions : http://www.ucc.ie/en/studyofreligions/

Also, while I'm big-upping my uni. it has pretty strong women's rights credentials too. UCC appointed the first female full professor of any university in Ireland or Britain! : Mary Ryan, Professor of Romance Languages (1910)

Also, The first two women to graduate in medicine in Ireland did so at UCC in 1898 (this was notable as it was more than 20 years before women were permitted to sit for medicine at the University of Oxford).

So, as Irish universities go, it's been quite forward thinking since its foundation.

I think it would be absolutely fantastic to open up two non-religious teacher-training centres in Cork and Galway.

Cork simply needs one, given its size and location and it could help cope with the growing needs of Educate Together etc etc.

And wouldn't Galway be the ideal home for teachers who wish to teach through Gaeilge ?

Being on major university campuses would also open up vast ranges of useful subjects to primary teaching students e.g. computers, science, modern languages etc.

Solair

kylith wrote: »

Unfortunately as long as schools are run by the RCC all teacher will have to be fully versed in Catholic indoctrination education, so will not hire secular teachers.

I know a few who have trained abroad and you can do a certificate in catholic teaching studies or something like that separately if you so wish.

I also know a few non-Catholic (atheist and protestant) primary school teachers who trained outside Ireland who teach in Catholic primary schools without any issue.

While it could potentially be problematic for them, it hasn't been. They seem to get way with just being able to teach the religious bits of the course. They don't necessarily have to believe or agree with what they're teaching.

That being said, all it would take is an principal or chair of a board to take a dislike to the idea and they could find themselves job hunting.

JonPierson

Hi,

I hope someone can help me here because I'm no religionist.

I have seen the two questions, posted by number 10a, and I am, very seriously, having a problem in understanding what answer is expected to be given for the 'Question 13 of 20'.

I assume that the expected answer to 'Question 12 of 20' is that it is true that 'Atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed'. Clearly this is utterly outrageous and untrue and an insulting obscenity directed against people, like me, who are atheists. It is unfortunate that, whilst Ireland has dragged itself, kicking and screaming, back to the middle ages by legislating against blasphemy, that law only permits members of religions to be protected against anyone who 'publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion'. Rational individuals, like myself, who do not worship imaginary friends, do not have their beliefs protected.

As matter of fact, I would suggest that the only truly accurate answer to a question regarding the cause of the worst horrors history has ever witnessed is that God is the guilty party. Let alone his random genocidal activities recorded in the Bible, He invoked both the event that led to the ultimate extinction of the dinosaurs and, of course, the extermination of all human life, in fact ALL life, on earth, except the Noah clan and two of each animal.

Coupled with the above, 'Acts of God' are frequent, violent and horrific and range from volcanic eruptions, hurricanes and earthquakes, through floods, droughts and heat-waves, to communicable diseases, famine and tsunamis. No, next to God, human beings – of any religion and none – are in the ha'penny place when it comes to producing the worst horrors history has ever witnessed. If you are religious, you believe that your god is everywhere, knows everything and is all powerful and so must be responsible for either causing these disasters or sitting back and letting them happen. If there is anyone religious reading this, tell me where my logic fails.

(Please do not forget to post the expected answer to 'Question 13 of 20'.)

Thank you.

KamiKazeKitten

Solair wrote: »

I know a few who have trained abroad and you can do a certificate in catholic teaching studies or something like that separately if you so wish.

I also know a few non-Catholic (atheist and protestant) primary school teachers who trained outside Ireland who teach in Catholic primary schools without any issue.

While it could potentially be problematic for them, it hasn't been. They seem to get way with just being able to teach the religious bits of the course. They don't necessarily have to believe or agree with what they're teaching.

That being said, all it would take is an principal or chair of a board to take a dislike to the idea and they could find themselves job hunting.

I'm doing a primary teaching course atm and the catholic studies cert piece is optional, though at the start of the year we were advised to do it if we wanted to work in Ireland.

We sit there, we do a few Powerpoints on morality, nobody learns anything much. Just a case of showing up and ticking the boxes to keep the bishops happy.
(I should point out we do have another obligatory religion class where we learn a lot of activities to do about Jesus.)

One lecturer told us about a case he'd heard out in the west of Ireland recently where the local priest got uppity after the school hired a Protestant teacher. Great teacher, the class loved her, the parents loved her but her religion was the problem, and he wanted her gone.

Apparently the priest only backed down after the principal threatened to leave, or so I was told.

And that is why I'll be keeping my mouth well shut about my atheism for the next 40 years or so, if I want a job. That's just the way it's gonna have to be, unless I get a job with Educate Together.

darealtulip

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

I'm doing a primary teaching course atm and the catholic studies cert piece is optional, though at the start of the year we were advised to do it if we wanted to work in Ireland.

We sit there, we do a few Powerpoints on morality, nobody learns anything much. Just a case of showing up and ticking the boxes to keep the bishops happy.
(I should point out we do have another obligatory religion class where we learn a lot of activities to do about Jesus.)

One lecturer told us about a case he'd heard out in the west of Ireland recently where the local priest got uppity after the school hired a Protestant teacher. Great teacher, the class loved her, the parents loved her but her religion was the problem, and he wanted her gone.

Apparently the priest only backed down after the principal threatened to leave, or so I was told.

And that is why I'll be keeping my mouth well shut about my atheism for the next 40 years or so, if I want a job. That's just the way it's gonna have to be, unless I get a job with Educate Together.

And then they still dare to write in their submissions that the schools are all inclusive. I would very much like to know where this was as it can be very useful in future submissions.

clumsyonesy

i've just started a primary teaching course and so far in all our religion classes it's been more about moral/faith/spirituality with some mention of Jesus and his parable etc but has just been a nice relaxing class. I think it is absolutely ridiculous for a college to take such a discriminitive stance, like are we going back to the late 40s or something? Catholicism is a fading religion in Ireland, and with the growth of educate together schools all religious beliefs (even the 'non believing' type) have got to respected otherwise you'll have children being isolated in class.

I have nothing but bad experience from the college in question and after seeing this I'm just thanking my lucky stars I didn't get in when I applied.

Everything happens for a reason!

JonPierson

I looked up 'HDAPE' on Google and the only hit related to primary teacher training was for Hibernia College.

Galvasean

JonPierson wrote: »

He invoked both the event that led to the ultimate extinction of the dinosaurs

JonPierson

Is there a 'like' button on this boards.ie thing?

MagicMarker

JonPierson wrote: »

Is there a 'like' button on this boards.ie thing?

The little thumbs up on the bottom right corner of a post, although you're a new user so you might not be able to see it with so few posts (i think).

iguana

I think you need 15 or 25 posts before the thumb appears on your screen and you can 'like' things.