oceanclub wrote: » Personally as a proponent of free speech I disagree with this tactic. While I don't think a college should be teaching anti-religious bigotry as objective fact and being approved to do so by the Dept of Education, I also don't think that anti-hatred legislation should be use unless the writer is directly inciting violence, which in this case, they aren't. P.
Galvasean wrote: » I agree. We should make an appeal to common sense and reason. I know, I know, "In Ireland??!!?", but I don't like the idea of reaching for the anti-hatred registration every time we come across something we don't like. It seems childish and shrill. There are probably more legitimate and mature grounds to bring up the issue in relation to.
darealtulip wrote: » I am appalled that this gets taught to the teachers of my children and I want it to stop now! I am so angry about this that I want to fight this from every angle possible. Never felt so enraged about anything before.
darealtulip wrote: » Which legitimate and mature grounds do you propose?
darealtulip wrote: » Thank you for your email message earlier today. I would like to assure you that I am discussing the issues which are of concern with Senior Management at the College. I will respond fully in due course. Regards, Siobhán Dr. Siobhán Cahillane-McGovern Director, Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.)
byhookorbycrook wrote: » Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another. Alive-O is the Catholic religion syllabus for primary, Learn together is the Educate together syllabus.
Amtmann wrote: » I got it too, and also a response from the minister's office, which will reply to me in detail in due course.
Minowaman wrote: » Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong." Admittedly he probably just knew nothing about science. It's a CBS and they get some kind of funding from the Bishop so I suppose that's the main problem.
Minowaman wrote: » I just did a week of teacher observation in my old primary school. The religion classes are disgusting. It should be illegal to teach that Alive-o sh!t alongside history, maths, etc. Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong." Admittedly he probably just knew nothing about science. It's a CBS and they get some kind of funding from the Bishop so I suppose that's the main problem.
Amtmann wrote: » I have long suspected that many primary school teachers tend to be cut from a very similar attitudinal cloth. It's unlikely that many atheist or agnostic young people would want to do a job in which it's a norm to prepare children for two or three religious rituals each year.
The Equality Tribunal has awarded more than €12,000 to a primary school teacher who was discriminated against because she was not a Catholic. The tribunal found that Knocktemple National School in Virginia, Co Cavan, discriminated against the female teacher when she applied for a job at the school in 2007. Michelle McKeever is a member of the Church of Ireland. She applied for a permanent job at Knocktemple National School, which is Catholic, in May 2007. Shortly after, she was contacted by the school principal and the chairperson of the school and offered a permanent post. But after a phone call in which Ms McKeever was questioned about holding the Catholic Religion Certificate, that offer was withdrawn. The Equality Tribunal has dismissed two explanations given by the school as to why this happened. The explanations were based on breaches of formal procedures. Michelle McKeever contended that her religion had become a factor in the appointment procedure. The Equality Tribunal has agreed with her, finding that not only was Ms McKeever's religion discussed, but that it also influenced the school's board of management in withdrawing the offer that had been made. The primary teachers' union, the INTO, has welcomed the result. It is the first time the union has taken a case of this kind on behalf of a member on the grounds of religion.
Minowaman wrote: » Also, the class were reading about horses in English class and how they evolved, and the teacher told them that "evolution is just a theory... it might be right or it might be wrong."
#15 wrote: » I would say your suspicion may not be wholly warranted. There are many atheist teachers who cannot ''come out'' as Boards of Management can legally discriminate against teachers who undermine the ethos of the school.
A recent survey carried out by INTO, shows that 67 percent of employed teachers teach religion willingly while 24 percent were uncomfortable with teaching it. Furthermore, the survey saw 34 percent of teachers agreed with a State takeover of schools and another 47 percent said the Catholic Church should renounce its control over a number of its schools.
7 out of 10 parents (72%) want primary schools to be managed by the state, with equal opportunity afforded to all religions, according to a RedC poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals' Network. This independent survey further reveals that 6 out 10 parents (57%) would prefer some of the 2½ hours per week currently spent on religion, to be given to other subject areas, in particular, to physical and health education. Parents and principals hold some common views but differ in their opinions on other matters: "Both Principals (2 out of 3) and Parents (7 out of 10) want schools to be under the authority of the state with all religions given equal opportunity" said Sean Cottrell, National Director of IPPN. Parents want the school and the class teacher to be responsible for the teaching of religion and faith formation within the school day; however Principals say that there is an overall decline in the level of interest and meaningful support coming from both parents and clergy in relation to preparation for religious ceremonies and events, with many parents just turning up on the day. Also, Principals report that there is a decline in the willingness and enthusiasm amongst teachers to undertake this work of preparing children for sacraments and other religious ceremonies. Summary of Main findings: Over 750 Principals responded representing 23% of all primary schools 88% of schools who responded are under Catholic patronage with the remaining participants from Church of Ireland, Educate Together, An Foras Pátrúnachta, Multidenominational and others. 76% say that preparation for sacraments is currently done almost entirely by the school with parents attending on the day Nearly one-quarter (23%) say that the enthusiasm, willingness, competency and suitability of teachers to undertake faith formation and religious instruction is decreasing. Half (50%) say that the involvement of parents is decreasing 40% say the involvement of clergy is decreasing. Almost 9 out of 10 (87%) say that the preparation for sacraments and other religious ceremonies takes some or a lot more additional time from other curriculum areas. (note: This refers mainly to 2nd and 6th classes and seasonally throughout the year in other classes) Principals are evenly divided in their views as to where and when religious instruction and faith formation should take place. Some see it as an integral part of the school day as at present and others say it should be separate from the primary school completely or offered as an option at the end of the school day. The proposed new VEC model of multi-faith schools where the school is responsible for religious instruction and faith formation for each faith group is considered difficult or impossible to implement by 80%
Amtmann wrote: » Right, but it would not surprise me if there were many more atheist people who would like to be primary teachers, but who feel forced to do something else because they cannot bear the thought of 'going through the motions'.
Any of the young teachers I know (and I know lots) generally would prefer if religion were kept out of the classroom; but at the end of the day, they don't see very much wrong with indoctrinating young minds with Christian mythology. I can only speak from experience though, and I accept that what I've written is anecdotal.
At present all the teacher-training colleges apart from the online Hibernia College are organised along religious lines.
darealtulip wrote: » The more I think about it the more I think court action should be taken if possible.
What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives ..
recedite wrote: » Lets look at how feasible that might be. So, taking a specific alleged statement from the notes.... First off, the statement is obviously incorrect. What these regimes had in common was totalitarianism, not religion. Fascists were usually associated with the RCC. Humanists have generally been the pacifists in times of conflict. Stalin may have been atheist as well as communist, but no credible historian would associate any of these regimes with "atheist humanism" or claim that any of them stemmed from it. Secondly, they are linking "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism with the atrocities by saying "it doesn't bother them". This is most certainly going to incite any young trainee teachers who are not completely au fait with the history and politics of these events to a dislike of "latter-day exponents" of atheist humanism, perhaps a hatred and a belief that they are "bad" or "evil" people. Later they will pass this bias or dislike on to their pupils in the classroom. One possible defence that Hibernia could use would be that they are referring to events of the past only, but that seems untenable given they specifically mention "latter-day exponents". The other defence that they are only "stating the facts" can be easily disproved. Now, suppose I read the Old Testament and saw the part about the Israelites killing the entire civilian population of Sodom. And the bit in the New Testament where the Jewish authorities want Jesus killed. So I decide to put the statement "What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that Judaism produced some of the worst horrors history has ever witnessed" into a contemporary teacher training manual. That would seem unnecessary for teacher training and simply an incitement to hatred.
Title: Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed.) Teaching Religious Hatred and Intolerance. Minister Quinn, Hibernia College Dublin Management, I am writing today due to my concern over an article and the supporting evidence that I read on Boards.ie and Broadsheet.ie recently. An issue arose whereby a student of Hibernia College Dublin in the Higher Diploma in Arts (Primary Ed. ) course told of the questions facing them and their fellow students in an upcoming "religion" exam, as part of the aforementioned higher diploma course. As part of a "mock" exam for this "religion" module, the students were faced with the following questions: Question 12 of 12 Moral Theology 'Atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed'. The answers given were 'True' and 'False'. The supporting documentation provided indicated that the student is expected to answer 'True' to said question. Question 13 of 20 Moral Theology What statement is false? 'Hinduism is a positive force for change in society.' 'Atheism has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society.' 'Islam is based on the identity of religion and society.' The student had to choose one of the above three. The supporting documentation was quoted by another student, the relevant excerpt follows. "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history" I would appreciate an explanation as to how the college in question feel it appropriate to force such grotesque, hatred filled lies onto the curriculum and consequently down the throats and into the minds of those who go on to teach the country's children. This "information" is factually incorrect and contains a clear religious bias from an institution claiming to have none. It is utterly abhorrent that this is what these teachers-to-be are being told to teach our children. The "information" has been discussed (with the inclusion of students of the course in questions) and debunked on Boards.ie and Broadsheet.ie at the following web links:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/20/literally-unbelievable/http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/22/ash-wednesday/ I am writing for an explanation as to how this material in question is in current circulation and indeed, on curriculum, along with official assurances that the complaint will be dealt with and actions taken appropriately. It is absolutely unacceptable that such utter hatred and intolerance of another's religious preferences be taught to our children or those who teach our children, be it Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Atheism or any other. Regards,
