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How would you solve the problems in the Education system?

micropig

These questions where raised in a thread in AH about Unions & teachers pay.

Due to the lack of intelligent solutions over there I have decided to ask it here (although I did't want to limit it to just people who work in education, as I think people outside the sector have a lot to offer)

How would you go about;
A)tackling the behaviour issues in our schools? Do you think a student is behaving badly if they won't sit quietly at their desk for 40 minutes?
B)Improving students attainment levels? (which are poor compared to other countries?)
C)Improving working conditions for teachers (decrease time spent planning, correcting etc)?
D) Improving resources, equipment & buildings in schools?
E) Get students interested in learning?

I have my own solutions to these issues but I'm wondering what approach would you take?

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micropig

seavill wrote: »

A great suggestion to be honest maybe some system should be set up for that purpose. Only problem there is our fantastic internet systems in schools can cause issues there daily :P

Lesson plans do not get tweaked the lesson gets tweaked. Afterwards the plan gets reviewed and tweaked for future reference.

In all fairness you are being very harsh putting blame on a teacher who has a heart attack. These things happen it is called life. Obviously, and again, we are talking about an extreme here

I'm sorry the teacher had a heart attack etc, but I am suggesting it is within our control to stop what happen to you happening again

[Deleted User]

micropig wrote: »

Yes but you said I still failed:(
I am asking you how I can improve.

And, WADR, I keep telling you; by reading the question and then addressing it.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. It's just that so many people in life (not just students) make this mistake, whether in exams, or job interviews, or when asked questions at work. They give answers - sometimes brilliantly constructed, sometimes not so - to questions they weren't asked, and in so doing they fail to answer the question they were asked.

So it is worth labouring the point.

The question was:

Deleted User wrote: »

€500 million saved from the teacher pay bill. What would it be spent on?

[....]

If we, the guv'ment, lopped €500 million off teacher pay, what would the money be spent on?

The answer you gave was:

micropig wrote: »

1st)get rid of all prefabs. Schools with a high percentage of prefabs get bulldozed first and a state of the art, suitable for purpose building replaces it. Then work on the other schools.
2nd) Improve basic equipment in other schools to ensure all schools are of a high standard.

Once basic facilities have been improved, start improving other facilities. Bring computers & other technology in to the classroom & get the students using them

4th) keep improving

basic equipment includes sna's etc

Second time around, I've stripped out most of the words in my original post, to leave the core question there to be read without distraction.

Twice.

Given the opportunity to reflect and to answer again, what's your answer?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Sorry can you quote exactly where I am being insulting?

So time spent correcting is not an issue for teachers then?
I made my views perfectly clear in the other thread and wanted to get other people opinions and thoughts before I influenced them with my own

Edit: I spend about 2-3 hours a week correcting

I will find the exact posts tomorrow (it is very late now to be going back over numerous pages) if you wish, in general I am referring to the ones where you called me unmotivated, lazy, and implied that i was not able to differentiate my lessons, I find this insulting, we have discussed this already.

When did I say that time spent correcting is not an issue for teachers? I don't remember saying this. all I did was ask you how long you spend correcting.
I suggested that this may be a way of posting instead of all questions as you have managed to get the back up of numerous teachers by the way you posted certain things so I was just putting a suggestion forward.

As I said I have never even thought of adding up the time I spend correcting. The week after the holidays I will do this and get back to you. it will be interesting, however I have never found it an overbearing workload, however this may be due to my subject combination, it may be for some people, and as you have pointed out they may not be doing it correctly like you and I:D

rainbowtrout

micropig wrote: »

Sorry to keep referring to the uk but standard practice there in most schools is to plan at least a week in advance. Then the teacher just tweaks it depending on how the lessons progress. I think this is good. Long & short term planning gives structure & direction to lessons.

If it was standard practice here, you would not have been put in the position of having to stay up have the night planning lessons, without knowledge of the students you where going to teach......

micropig, you're doing a seriously good job of trolling the T&L forum.

This is not the UK where from what you've posted about yourself is where you got your teaching qualification (PGCE you said) and spent the majority of your time teaching.

A few things about the Irish system:

We do not have to hand in lesson plans on a weekly basis. I don't write out lesson plans. I have in my diary the topics and material and practicals etc that I want to teach that week, month etc. You'll probably find there are many teachers who operate in a similar manner.
There is no 'system' in schools where all teachers upload their lesson plans - I'd say schools that have this are few and far between.
Technology is improving but has a long way to go yet, UK schools in comparison get truckloads of resources. My school has 1 IWB. I only discovered it when I was supervising in a classroom about 2 years ago. I asked the teacher who is mainly based there when it appeared. She told me she saw it in the principal's office, asked about it, and he said 'It's been there ages and no one has asked for it, so if you want it, it's yours' Or something to that effect. No one knew it even existed.

Information on students again on the 'system' varies hugely from school to school. Some provide loads of easily accessible information and some provide little or none. In the situation seavill has so clearly explained, if a teacher is rushed into hospital they are not going to say 'Hold the ambulance I need to send an email to the as yet unknown sub who will be taking my classes tomorrow with my lesson plans attached' If you are given classes at short notice you will do your best to organise work for the lesson, there's usually no time to get information on individual students. Often subs land into a school in the morning and the first time they find out what they should be teaching is when they walk into the classroom and ask the students what they did the previous day.

I'm not suggesting that any of this is perfect but if you're going to have a rant on the Irish education system at least make some comments about what exists rather than ranting on about bulldozing prefabs and IWBs for all. It's not going to happen.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

And, WADR, I keep telling you; by reading the question and then addressing it.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. It's just that so many people in life (not just students) make this mistake, whether in exams, or job interviews, or when asked questions at work. They give answers - sometimes brilliantly constructed, sometimes not so - to questions they weren't asked, and in so doing they fail to answer the question they were asked.

So it is worth labouring the point.

The question was:

The answer you gave was:

Second time around, I've stripped out most of the words in my original post, to leave the core question there to be read without distraction.

Twice.

Given the opportunity to reflect and to answer again, what's your answer?

Ok if I add ideally spent on the following before my last answer?
I never suggested it be spent on anything other than the education system

Don't bring the banks etc in to this

Or do I still fail?
What do you suggest it be spent on?

micropig

rainbowtrout wrote: »

micropig, you're doing a seriously good job of trolling the T&L forum.

This is not the UK where from what you've posted about yourself is where you got your teaching qualification (PGCE you said) and spent the majority of your time teaching.

A few things about the Irish system:

We do not have to hand in lesson plans on a weekly basis. I don't write out lesson plans. I have in my diary the topics and material and practicals etc that I want to teach that week, month etc. You'll probably find there are many teachers who operate in a similar manner.
There is no 'system' in schools where all teachers upload their lesson plans - I'd say schools that have this are few and far between.
Technology is improving but has a long way to go yet, UK schools in comparison get truckloads of resources. My school has 1 IWB. I only discovered it when I was supervising in a classroom about 2 years ago. I asked the teacher who is mainly based there when it appeared. She told me she saw it in the principal's office, asked about it, and he said 'It's been there ages and no one has asked for it, so if you want it, it's yours' Or something to that effect. No one knew it even existed.

Information on students again on the 'system' varies hugely from school to school. Some provide loads of easily accessible information and some provide little or none. In the situation seavill has so clearly explained, if a teacher is rushed into hospital they are not going to say 'Hold the ambulance I need to send an email to the as yet unknown sub who will be taking my classes tomorrow with my lesson plans attached' If you are given classes at short notice you will do your best to organise work for the lesson, there's usually no time to get information on individual students. Often subs land into a school in the morning and the first time they find out what they should be teaching is when they walk into the classroom and ask the students what they did the previous day.

I'm not suggesting that any of this is perfect but if you're going to have a rant on the Irish education system at least make some comments about what exists rather than ranting on about bulldozing prefabs and IWBs for all. It's not going to happen.

Your post highlights why our education may be failing.
You only discovered the IBW:eek:
Why not try to improve the Irish system. Why call anyone who makes suggestions trolls?
Not hold the ambulance-never suggested this
What exists???????????read the title of the thread it says how would you improve

*I am beginning to wonder about teachers' reading & comprehension levels
EDIT: Who do you think the teacher has to hand in the lesson plans to?? They are for the teachers own benefit & should be on the system in case the teacher drops dead so their colleague isn't landed with an unexpected workload which needs to be done asap

seavill

Micropig, I think rainbowtrout's point was more to do with maybe the suggestions made should be as realistic as possible rather than just aspirational ones.

For example if I were the minister and got and extra 500 million like someone suggested (although I agree prefabs are a disaster) the most pressing issues are the withdrawal of resource hours, SNA's for students who desperately need one, cuts to traveler education, cuts to guidance hours (HUGE ISSUE IMO) If it were me these things are the major issues to be dealt with first before money is spent on other things.

not saying that schools don't need to be built or resources don't need to be provided, I think they do, but having too few teachers and resource hours and guidance hours but being in a lovely new building, does not really level up

[Deleted User]

micropig wrote: »

Ok if I add ideally spent on the following before my last answer?

You weren't asked to re-write the question, you were asked to answer the question.

But at least now you may have some inkling of why you got your F.

The pass answer is:

The money would be spent on nothing.

Learn that off by heart and you'll scrape by with a D. I'll do up a worksheet for the honours students tomorrow.

seavill

Deleted User wrote: »

Learn that off by heart and you'll scrape by with a D. I'll do up a worksheet for the honours students tomorrow.

Make sure you do several worksheets and that they are differentiated to take into account all your students or Micropig will be giving out again tomorrow night:p

rainbowtrout

micropig wrote: »

Your post highlights why our education may be failing.
You only discovered the IBW:eek:
Why not try to improve the Irish system. Why call anyone who makes suggestions trolls?
Not hold the ambulance-never suggested this
What exists???????????read the title of the thread it says how would you improve

*I am beginning to wonder about teachers' reading & comprehension levels

Yes, I discovered it. I have no business being in this classroom from one end of the year to the other so how was I supposed to know there was a IWB in it? Nobody else knew either.

I wouldn't mind but I teach IT (not just word, email, but programming, computer architecture) so I am well capable of using any technology I'm provided with. Half my hours are IT yet I had to beg for 2-3 years for a data projector for my computer room. It was one of the last rooms to be provided with one and I would probably use it more than most. Go figure.

There are plenty of teachers who are more than happy to integrate any resources they may be provided with, but they are not always made available to them and by the time some money becomes available for IT resources, computers need to be upgraded etc and the money is just swallowed up.

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Micropig, I think rainbowtrout's point was more to do with maybe the suggestions made should be as realistic as possible rather than just aspirational ones.

For example if I were the minister and got and extra 500 million like someone suggested (although I agree prefabs are a disaster) the most pressing issues are the withdrawal of resource hours, SNA's for students who desperately need one, cuts to traveler education, cuts to guidance hours (HUGE ISSUE IMO) If it were me these things are the major issues to be dealt with first before money is spent on other things.

not saying that schools don't need to be built or resources don't need to be provided, I think they do, but having too few teachers and resource hours and guidance hours but being in a lovely new building, does not really level up

I refereed to SNA's as basic equipment in the classroom-It should go without saying that these are vital. Ok put them number 1 on my list.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

Micropig, I think rainbowtrout's point was more to do with maybe the suggestions made should be as realistic as possible rather than just aspirational ones.

For example if I were the minister and got and extra 500 million like someone suggested (although I agree prefabs are a disaster) the most pressing issues are the withdrawal of resource hours, SNA's for students who desperately need one, cuts to traveler education, cuts to guidance hours (HUGE ISSUE IMO) If it were me these things are the major issues to be dealt with first before money is spent on other things.

not saying that schools don't need to be built or resources don't need to be provided, I think they do, but having too few teachers and resource hours and guidance hours but being in a lovely new building, does not really level up

That's exactly what I'm saying. We've survived in prefabs for a long time, a few more years won't make a difference. Obviously in some cases they do need to be urgently replaced but some schools would prefer to make do with the building they have so that they could keep resource hours or buy a few computer or whatever. As was mentioned early on in this thread, some schools find it difficult just to cover the heating bills.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

You weren't asked to re-write the question, you were asked to answer the question.

But at least now you may have some inkling of why you got your F.

The pass answer is:

The money would be spent on nothing.

Learn that off by heart and you'll scrape by with a D. I'll do up a worksheet for the honours students tomorrow.

So by your logic, nothing should be done. We should continue to watch standards fall and be happy with it?

Gbear

I think there are real problems with the education system that are rarely mentioned.
I'll leave the questions of sufficient salaries, pensions, class sizes and so on to economists and teachers themselves, who both have a better understanding of those issues.

At a more fundamental level, I think the entire education system, as I experienced it, was at best just about adequate but in large parts missing the point.

I have a huge problem with the curriculum which seems to focus too much on trivia and not enough on practical skills.

I like the concept of CSPE class, for example, but I think it's far more important than it's current role and it should be dramatically expanded to be a cornerstone of education.

Practical skills required by adults: Cooking, cleaning, budgeting, driving, sewing, basic first aid, finding a job - are real skills that are used all the time in the real world but are left by the wayside in the education system. It should be mandatory in some form from the day a child arrives in secondary school right through to leaving cert.
I don't think most trainee engineers will make much use of WB Yeats but they all would benefit from being able to drive, eat healthily or fix the button on their trousers without help from Mammy.

How many college students go away completely incapable of taking care of themselves? A better education about nutrition and actual affordable solutions to families with low income and poor diet could do a great deal of good to our impending health crisis.

Another fundamental skill that so many lack is critical thinking and it just isn't there in education. In fact it's the total opposite.
There seems to be so much in education based on received wisdom and tradition and in a supposedly enlightened age I think we need to have a more evidence based form of teaching and really shake the foundations of an institution that regardless of fancy gadgets or shiny sports facilities, is still fundamentally backwards IMO.

I think that more than just laying the groundwork for your future occupation, school, from Junior Infants to Leaving cert should be about creating a person who's self sufficient and useful to society and I think it's failing at that when there's really no need.

seavill

micropig wrote: »

So by your logic, nothing should be done. We should continue to watch standards fall and be happy with it?

:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

You weren't asked to re-write the question, you were asked to answer the question.

But at least now you may have some inkling of why you got your F.

The pass answer is:

The money would be spent on nothing.

Learn that off by heart and you'll scrape by with a D. I'll do up a worksheet for the honours students tomorrow.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. We've survived in prefabs for a long time, a few more years won't make a difference. Obviously in some cases they do need to be urgently replaced but some schools would prefer to make do with the building they have so that they could keep resource hours or buy a few computer or whatever. As was mentioned early on in this thread, some schools find it difficult just to cover the heating bills.

More money put in to resources & equipment - money comes from teachers salaries?

Schools have no heating/resources because most of the education budget is spent on teachers wages and not on resources

micropig

seavill wrote: »

:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

Yes but not all the suggestions I made cost money if you have a read back;)

seavill

micropig wrote: »

More money put in to resources & equipment - money comes from teachers salaries?

Schools have no heating/resources because most of the education budget is spent on teachers wages and not on resources

How many times have you said this so far?? answers will be put on your worksheets in the next class or you can research the answer yourself as an individual learner in an active way:p

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Yes but not all the suggestions I made cost money if you have a read back;)

HAHAHA how can you come up with that answer to my smilies, just brilliant

micropig

seavill wrote: »

How many times have you said this so far?? answers will be put on your worksheets in the next class or you can research the answer yourself as an individual learner in an active way:p

Do you critise the suggestions and answers of your students in the same way?

From a teacher who wondered what to do if the child couldn't read:rolleyes:

My reply to your smiles include the post the smiles where about

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Do you critise the suggestions and answers of your students in the same way?

From a teacher who wondered what to do if the child couldn't read:rolleyes:

My reply to your smiles include the post the smiles where about

Again we are going back to being insulting to each other.
Excellent

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Again we are going back to being insulting to each other.
Excellent

Ok so I gather from this thread that there are not behaviour issues, teachers are planning fantastic lessons and children are interested and engaged in lessons.
Edit: The facilities are grand

(Never mind the facts & figures which show otherwise-Keep shouting what we have is great)

What are teachers complaining about then?

Again I will offer my theory - The high wages have attracted greedy people to the profession, with no interest in improving the standard of education & facilities. A lot of teachers aren't interesting in hearing how they can improve their own situation and there's an awful air of helplessness

Lower the wages. Attract educated people to the profession with an interest in children and spend the money saved on SNA's & facilities

seavill

micropig wrote: »

Ok so I gather from this thread that there are not behaviour issues, teachers are planning fantastic lessons and children are interested and engaged in lessons.

(Never mind the facts & figures which show otherwise-Keep shouting what we have is great)

What are teachers complaining about then?

Again I will offer my theory - The high wages have attracted greedy people to the profession, with no interest in improving the standard of education & facilities

Lower the wages. Attract educated people to the profession with an interest in children and spend the money saved on SNA's & facilities

Well going on what you say about your teaching you have no issues plan perfect lessons and use all activities as you said you practice what you preach. So if this is true for you why can it not be true for others.

I don't remember complaining about anything.

I have already said cut pay and spend it on SNA s etc.

Attracting people and less pay generally don't go together. I'm sure you can see my point. ( and before you jump down my throat I'm not saying increase pay or anything like that)

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Well going on what you say about your teaching you have no issues plan perfect lessons and use all activities as you said you practice what you preach. So if this is true for you why can it not be true for others.

I don't remember complaining about anything.

I have already said cut pay and spend it on SNA s etc.

Attracting people and less pay generally don't go together. I'm sure you can see my point. ( and before you jump down my throat I'm not saying increase pay or anything like that)

I never said I had no issue, but I reduce behaviour problems as much as I can by planning interesting lessons, where everyone in the class can participate regardless of ability. If my students tell me I'm boring, I take it as feedback and find out what type of activities they like doing. I take this feedback and use it to inform my future lessons. I cringe when I hear teachers giving out that students won't sit at their desks for a long time & then continue to plan lessons where they are required to do so

Maybe others do not plan properly or care what their students enjoy doing. Maybe they fail them if the student says they are boring?

I am suggesting Irish teachers are give more power to deal with beahviour issues & are supported more

Yes but less pay offered will attract people who actually want to and are interested in teaching -see my point?

Edit: If no complaints, why are our students failing miserably compared to other countries?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

I never said I had no issue, but I reduce behaviour problems as much as I can by planning interesting lessons. If my students tell me I'm boring, I take it as feedback and find out what type of activities they like doing. I take this feedback and use it to inform my future lessons.

Maybe others do not plan properly or care what their students enjoy doing. Maybe they fail them if the student says they are boring?

I am suggesting Irish teachers are give more power to deal with beahviour issues & are supported more

Yes but less pay offered will attract people who actually want to and are interested in teaching -see my point?

Maybe this is what I and many others do also. Why are you so keen to say that all Irish teachers are the complete opposite of this. And please don't quote Pisa.

I was not being smart by saying see my point you clearly were however I do see your point. I believe people who want to teach will do it whatever the money

micropig

seavill wrote: »

Maybe this is what I and many others do also. Why are you so keen to say that all Irish teachers are the complete opposite of this. And please don't quote Pisa.

I was not being smart by saying see my point you clearly were however I do see your point. I believe people who want to teach will do it whatever the money

I never suggested all Irish teachers are like this, but they're certainly is a large element. I am not suggesting we remove good teachers, just ineffective ones.

Most of my comments are made in response to 'behaviour' issues teachers said they had. Any issues so far haven't been behaviour issues but teacher issues and some of the questions that where asked really shocked me that teachers didn't have the solutions themselves

Re: reducing correcting time
re: what can you do if a student........
re: Sure what good would technology do? etc
re: sure what good would resources & facilities be?
re: reducing planning time
re: not been landed with 9 classes to prepare the night before
:eek::eek:

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

spurious

micropig wrote: »

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

Let's hope he doesn't punch you in the face. Would that be a behaviour issue?

In the real world, where teachers are assaulted by students (and their equally dysfunctional parents) and cannot 'remove' a student from the class (or indeed the school in many cases) what would you do then? He arrives back in your class having assaulted you in front of the others and you cannot refuse to take him.

Do you have any idea at all what actually goes on in schools?

micropig

spurious wrote: »

Let's hope he doesn't punch you in the face. Would that be a behaviour issue?

In the real world, where teachers are assaulted by students (and their equally dysfunctional parents) and cannot 'remove' a student from the class (or indeed the school in many cases) what would you do then? He arrives back in your class having assaulted you in front of the others and you cannot refuse to take him.

Do you have any idea at all what actually goes on in schools?

Depends on why the students is lashing out
a)because home life is crap and he gets the same nonsense from teachers
b) he feels schools is irrelevant
c)he is frustrated at going to school in substandard conditions with no resources / support for his emotion needs
d) is he the teacher trying to get him to sit there for 40 minutes
e)another reason
f) He just feels like it

I don't think if the reasons are a-e it is necessarily the students fault, regardless there should be support to help students deal with behaviour problems.

Yes, I know exactly what goes on in schools. Can you comprehend the title of the thread?

seavill

micropig wrote: »

I never suggested all Irish teachers are like this, but they're certainly is a large element. I am not suggesting we remove good teachers, just ineffective ones.

Most of my comments are made in response to 'behaviour' issues teachers said they had. Any issues so far haven't been behaviour issues but teacher issues and some of the questions that where asked really shocked me that teachers didn't have the solutions themselves

Re: reducing correcting time
re: what can you do if a student........
re: Sure what good would technology do? etc
re: sure what good would resources & facilities be?
re: reducing planning time
re: not been landed with 9 classes to prepare the night before
:eek::eek:

Now I have to sleep, need to be up bright & early in case I need to give out s*it to a student who comes from a disfunctional background about not having a pen. (as if things were crap enough at home for him)

I was going to reply but I have taken a new attitude towards idiotic posts

I came for a mature discussion and it is clear no matter what I will not get one here I would have been better off in AH

And just to finish if a dear friend of mine suddenly got a heart attack whether or not they had 50 lesson plans ready for me I would still have prep to do.

I respectfully ask you not to refer to my friend or that situation again in this thread

spurious

The mods are looking at one-issue posters who have re-regged to get around bans.

This thread smells highly of it.