Zombrex wrote: » Of course I claimed, I have always maintained that God ordered rape in the Old Testament. You stated that I claimed that God ordered CHRISTIANS to rape people. I didn't (if he did I suspect none of you would be Christians).
I'm not discussing this with you because I can't bear the idea that the Israelites might have committed rape. I'm discussing it with you because yopu made claims which I don't believe are supported by the evidence in the text. Heck, I acknowledge that the Israelites killed entire cities of people at God's command which I find much more troubling as a Christian than the idea that some women might have been forced unwillingly into marriages! So I'm not disputing the rape thing with you because I want it not to be true - I'm simply pointing out what I genuinely believe, on textual and historical grounds, to be the case. The Israelites killed tons of people - but I don't see the evidence as supporting the rape allegation.
Zombrex wrote: » No, trying to get you to state where I said God claimed Christians should rape people. Can I take it from the fact that you have gone back to a post from 2006 (that still doesn't support your claim) that you don't have anything to back this up?
Yes. You do believe that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are the same God, correct?
No, that isn't the question. The question is where did I claim that God commands Christians to rape people.
I've claimed many many many times that God commanded the Israelites to rape and kill people.
Admit it? That was my original claim. He did endorse rape and killing (posters like PDN even agree with the killing bit, just not the rape bit)
The Old Testament.Deuteronomy 20: 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
ISAW wrote: » You claim NT God is the exact same God as OT God Christians follow NT God Join up the dots yourself.
ISAW wrote: » A bit rich coming from someone who claims God endorsed rape 5,000 years ago!
ISAW wrote: » So you claim the same christian God endorsed rape! Right after you say you never made such a claim?
ISAW wrote: » You claim OT God endoersed/commanded rape murder etc. You claim NT God is the exact same God as OT God Christians follow NT God Join up the dots yourself.
ISAW wrote: » Yes the same God that Christians worship!
ISAW wrote: » You were asked by PDN about the rape bit. You have waffled for pages on it and jhopped off into all sorts. Where is your evidence about the "rape bit" ?
ISAW wrote: » How is this evidence that God ordered or endorsed rape?
Simtech wrote: » Can anyone please explain for one who doesn't understand; did God change the rules/His mind generally from the OT to the NT? If so, why is it thought that this was done? Is OT God thought to be different from NT God?
Zombrex wrote: » Yes but I claimed that today. You don't need to go back to 2006 to find where I said it.
You stated I claimed that God commanded Christians to rape people. I did not.
The same God who ordered the stoning of homosexuals, the execution of any woman not a virgin on her wedding night, the genocide of neighbouring villages.
Its not, it is evidence that God ordered killing, which is what you asked for.
BTW since you seem to be trying to change the subject, to you admit now that I did not state that God orders Christians to rape people?
ISAW wrote: » i suggest you go back to where this thread began and read through PDN's posts. from around herehttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75762475&postcount=731
ISAW wrote: » No you didnt! You said you hadn't in particular claimed God or the Bible told Christians in particular to do things rape in particular which were wrong. The more general claim was one about God or the bible or believers justifying immoral acts ( of course on scrutiny immoral = "just my opinion" ) You used this claim of God telling people to rape and do generally "immoral" things with the makey uppey non christian "god" instructing people to do immoral acts. You claimed he instructed believers to rape in ancient times . You have not shown where. you pointed out the God was the same god and you then used this God who instructs immorality to suggest if God told Christians to rape then that justifies rape. Leave the general claim and care to tell us where that God instructed people to rape as you claimed? I specifically asked about rape. where is it? No that is the subject! You clearly argue that the God of the Bible orders immoral things and that rape was one of those things and that that same God ordering rape murder and immorality is the God of Christians. Where? Where is the God of Christians ordering people to commit rape?
Zombrex wrote: » So can I take it from all that ranting that you are dropping the charge that I claimed that God has ordered Christians to commit rape?
I'm happy to move on but I would like you to acknowledge that I didn't say that, because you have a habit of steering the discussion on and then much later re-surfacing the charge.
ISAW wrote: » You claimed God ( the same God as the Christian God) instructed his followers to rape. Im interested in you supporting that claim.
ISAW wrote: » You did say and it is quite clear is that God ordered immoral acts such as rape. If you are saying he didnt odred it since the time of christ but did order it before that it makes no difference - it is the same God.
ISAW wrote: » We are still waiting for this "ordering rape" evidence. where is it?
ISAW wrote: » Now get this straight you called me a LIAR! I didn't tell any lies!
ISAW wrote: » I actually don't know what you believe.
philologos wrote: » This "debate" is all over the shop, so much so that it might be better off progressing to another discussion while Zombrex gets his position together in a clear manner.
Zombrex wrote: » I would of course like to think that I've stunned you all with the beauty of my argument...
Soul Winner wrote: » Yeah, you've stunned us into silence. What were we thinking when we thought that we had explained things sufficiently about the Christian position on this subject to you? How were we to know that you're even duller of hearing than we first thought? For the last time: God never commanded rape, God never condoned rape. God commanded His people people to take control of a particular piece of land as their inheritance. A land that was at that time plagued by a people who sacrificed their children to false gods. Who participated in heinous acts of sodomy, rape and beastiality. They defiled themselves and their land and God was using His chosen people to drive them out of that land so that when they moved in it would blossom again. He did the same thing to His own people when they became depraved in their activities, forgetting the Sabbath year and failing to the land lie fallow in order for it would be reinvigorated for the next six years and so on. He raised up the Babylonians to do to them what He commanded His people to do to the Canaanites, that was to get them out of the land. That's the way He did things back then, because that land was going to be the land who's capital was the Holy City Jerusalem in which was built the Temple with the Arc of the Covenant, into which Temple the Messiah would enter in His first coming. It was this city that Messiah would perform His work to save mankind from their sins. Pretty important land from God's perspective. When you look at the bigger picture you can see why He wanted the Canaanites out of it.
Sonics2k wrote: » If God is infallible, how can he change his mind and do things differently? If God is all powerful, why not simply get rid of them. If God is all-knowing, how can you sit there and say with a straight face that when he said "take their women" this would be interpreted as "take them for your own, don't worry, it's not like kidnapping or forced marriage, or even rape, just because they don't want to, because I, God, say it's okay" or "take them for your own, but remember, just because you've killed all the men doesn't mean it's okay to have your way with them". Let's look back on history, and the actions of warriors across the world. It's hardly uncommon for them to rape the women after the men have been killed, this is just one group justifying it by saying "God told us to kill them all, and take what we wanted", and "We can justify killing people, because God told us it was okay". What a crock.
Soul Winner wrote: » That's the whole point. If God doesn't exist and didn't tell them to do it then yes of course its a load of tosh. But if God does exist and did tell them to do it for whatever reason He deemed sufficient then that's a different story. As Christians we believe that God exists and told them to do it. You don't believe He exists and didn't tell them to do it. Of course you would be appalled at a group claiming that God told them to do such things. We're not because we believe He does exist and did tell them to do such things and that He had sufficiently good reasons for doing so. If He exists then as the creator of the earth its His blooming land to give to whomever He wants. You don't have to like that but it is what it is. If I were God I would have wiped them out myself and made it easy for the Israelites to just occupy the land. But He didn't want to do it that way for some reason known only to Him. Maybe He's trying to teach us something today. God's ways are not man's ways. That is not a cop out, that's been central to the teaching of the Bible for centuries. But God did not command them to commit rape no matter what way you want to dice it. These people were given the option of surrender and they didn't take it so their men were wiped out. They could have just left the land but they wouldn't. Their women and children were left without protectors. God gave them into the hands of the Israelites which was to them a great mercy, they had someone to take care of them. Nothing about rape. That's simply inferred by your brain doing overtime. No evidence of it whatsoever. How do you know that these women and children were not happier with the Israelites than they were with the own men? I'd say the Israelites gave them a better life, a life without fear of their kids being sacrificed to idols. Like I said, if I were God I would have wiped them all out myself, long before God got around to it, but then I'm not God am I? As long as its possible that God might have had sufficiently good reasons for doing it the way He chose to do it then He knows all ends and what we might consider barbaric from our vantage point in history might bare nothing on the greater scheme of things.
Zombrex wrote: » And I'm interested in you either supporting your claim that I said God has ordered Christians to commit rape, or retracting it.
Soul Winner wrote: » That's the whole point. If God doesn't exist and didn't tell them to do it then yes of course its a load of tosh. But if God does exist and did tell them to do it for whatever reason He deemed sufficient then that's a different story. As Christians we believe that God exists and told them to do it. You don't believe He exists and didn't tell them to do it. Of course you would be appalled at a group claiming that God told them to do such things. We're not because we believe He does exist and did tell them to do such things and that He had sufficiently good reasons for doing so. If He exists then as the creator of the earth its His blooming land to give to whomever He wants. You don't have to like that but it is what it is. If I were God I would have wiped them out myself and made it easy for the Israelites to just occupy the land. But He didn't want to do it that way for some reason known only to Him.Maybe He's trying to teach us something today. God's ways are not man's ways. That is not a cop out, that's been central to the teaching of the Bible for centuries. But God did not command them to commit rape no matter what way you want to dice it. These people were given the option of surrender and they didn't take it so their men were wiped out. They could have just left the land but they wouldn't. Their women and children were left without protectors. God gave them into the hands of the Israelites which was to them a great mercy, they had someone to take care of them. Nothing about rape. That's simply inferred by your brain doing overtime. No evidence of it whatsoever. How do you know that these women and children were not happier with the Israelites than they were with the own men? I'd say the Israelites gave them a better life, a life without fear of their kids being sacrificed to idols. Like I said, if I were God I would have wiped them all out myself, long before God got around to it, but then I'm not God am I? As long as its possible that God might have had sufficiently good reasons for doing it the way He chose to do it then He knows all ends and what we might consider barbaric from our vantage point in history might bare nothing on the greater scheme of things.
ISAW wrote: » I won't let you off the hook.
ISAW wrote: » So I withdraw and retract any suggestion that you said Christians were asked to rape by God since Christianity began.
ISAW wrote: » But that makes no difference ( or no sense) as your whole argument rests on the God who commanded rape being the same God as the Christian God.
ISAW wrote: » This isn't about what you are interested in. It is about your claim that God commanded rape. Now. Did you are did you not say God commanded rape? Are you claiming that the God of Christians is a different God?
Zombrex wrote: » Yes, along with infanticide and genocide and a host of other horrible things. It is amusing that people are getting worked up about the rape bit.
PDN was at least honest and consistent reasonably say that it was just a matter of accuracy,
I suspect that was PDN's initial reaction until he realized what was happening).
Though I guess as Soul Winner's post demonstrated it is easier to justify the infanticide (for their own good) and genocide (they were doing bad things), where as finding a justification (using our own moral systems) for rape would be more difficult.
The god of the Christians (as you put it) is the same God as in the Old Testament according to Christians (Jews might disagree).
ISAW wrote: » Okay. where Where did God order people to commit rape?
Sonics2k wrote: » If God is infallible, how can he change his mind and do things differently? What a crock.
Simtech wrote: » Nobody seems to want to address this basic point other than to say "Ah well, He must have had his own reasons." In spite of those saying it's not, this is a cop out if ever there was one. If He wasn't wrong in the first place, He should never have had to change tack.
Sonics2k wrote: » Do you really believe the Israelites where there to "take care of them"?
Sonics2k wrote: » Those people became their property. Justified because they claimed God was on their side.
Sonics2k wrote: » The Ancient Greek armies wiped out entire villages, slaughtering people and taking women and children as their own, justified because their Gods said they should do it. But looking back on it now, we know it was about power and land.
Sonics2k wrote: » The same is said for every other civilization in history, even the British claimed God was on their side as they built their empire, so did the French and Spanish and some would say the same about the U.S. now. But of course, we look back now and say "No that wasn't god, that was power hungry men using God as an excuse".
Sonics2k wrote: » I have no problem with belief in a God or Gods (I actually quite like the Buddhists belief, or hell, even the Star Wars Force idea). It speaks to us in a deep way. Even the most string Atheist, at the pit of their heart wonders if there is something else.
Sonics2k wrote: » I take issue when people do a bad thing, and then call it good because God said it was okay. We laugh at the people who murder their own children "Because God told them too", and who knows, maybe God did, but that doesn't mean doing it was right. But we all know they were crazy anyway!
Sonics2k wrote: » I take issue with any belief system that justifies hatred, murder and war because God says it's okay.
Sonics2k wrote: » For all the good things Religion can do, the bad things can and have utterly destroyed it for millions of people across the world.
Sonics2k wrote: » I believe people are equal, no matter the race/sexuality/gender or anything else. Giving to charity is good, killing is bad. And so on.
Morbert wrote: » While I try to avoid these kind of discussions: My understanding is that it is well established that God orders people to kill and rape.
God, for example, kills David's son with disease and threatens to have his wives raped in broad daylight.
But the treatment of women as objects for men to "lie with" was culturally acceptable and not seen as "rape", and the killing of children was lawful and not seen as "murder".
PDN wrote: » In primary school you are taught that you cannot subtract a larger number from a smaller number. Then, in secondary school, you learn about minus numbers and hey, guess what, you can subtract a larger number from a smaller number! Were the teachers in primary school wrong? Or did they change their mind and start teaching something different to the older children? No. They taught the primary aged children in terms that made sense to their level of understanding. Then, with older children, they were able to introduce more complex concepts that were suited to their more developed frames of reference.
PDN wrote: » The basic point is crock. And your accusation is untrue. We are perfectly willing to explain why God uses different methods in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's not our fault if others don't want to listen when we explain it.I asked here and Sonics2k asked here; it was not addressed. I don't propose to spend all my time sifting through years of posts in case my questions have been asked previously. It hasn't, in as far as I've seen, been addressed while I've been following so untwist your knickers if you can reach up that far. Christians believe that God has revealed himself progressively in stages to mankind. This is not because God changes, but because people, along with their cultures etc, take time to develop. Christians believe that God chose the Jewish nation, as described in the Old Testament, in order that they would bring forth the Messiah (Jesus Christ). Once the Messiah came, then people would have a fuller revelation of who God is.Well if that's the best he could come up with and Christians believe it........they are entitled to believe any ould thing they want I suppose. We can compare this to how teachers use very different methods to teach math to primary school children than to students in seconary school. In primary school you are taught that you cannot subtract a larger number from a smaller number. Then, in secondary school, you learn about minus numbers and hey, guess what, you can subtract a larger number from a smaller number! Were the teachers in primary school wrong? Or did they change their mind and start teaching something different to the older children? No. They taught the primary aged children in terms that made sense to their level of understanding. Then, with older children, they were able to introduce more complex concepts that were suited to their more developed frames of reference.Well my six year old daughter can subtract a large number from a small number with little difficulty, coming out with a minus number, so it would appear something is lacking in the approach to maths in primary schools would it not. That's a terrible analogy btw. I'm sure God could have revealed Himself in better ways as am I sure teachers could teach in better ways. It boils down to a desire to do so or lack thereof and is questionable in both cases by reasonable men. Of course it's only blasphemy in one case. So, in the Old Testament the people were to form a nation that would follow God and which would eventually produce Jesus Christ. To do this, as with any nation in history, they had to fight wars with those who would otherwise destroy them. In those wars they observed the commonly accepted rules of warfare - the Geneva Convention of their time.Of course where rules were not observed (you know little of warfare if you think this was not the case a lot of the time) they were no doubt doing it on their own, uncommanded by God who, no doubt, bears no responsibility. I can see the appeal of your innocent world view here but I'm glad I don't share it. Still, they say willful ignorance is bliss eh? (Despite some highly opinionated assertions by some non-Christians, and some gross dishonesty by others, there is no evidence that this ever included rape, but it certainly included mass killings of a kind to make any sane modern person highly uncomfortable).See above! In the New Testament, now that Jesus has already come, God's plan for Christians is very different.So you admit that the plan changed then? There may be hope for you yet. Not because God has changed, but because Israel's pupose is already accomplished. Christians are not to be a nation, but are to live in a way that demonstrates the Gospel of Christ and encourages others to embrace this new message and lifestyle. So now they are not to fight wars, but are rather called to turn the other cheek and endure persecution. The Gospel is not like a tribal or national identity - it does not need to fight wars to survive. In fact it grows and spreads faster and in a more pure form when it refuses to take up arms.
