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off lead or not?

littlebug

my head and heart are at odds here so I just wanted others opinions.

my dog gets walked a lot, if I'm out she's out. She's gets walked a minimum of 3 times a day, varying lengths. As well as this I'll run (jog) with her 2-3 times a week (3 miles). My running is her trotting slightly faster than usual

.
Yesterday we ran 2 miles to the local turlough , she had 40 minutes of haring (real high speed thrill stuff) around and swimming etc, then 1 mile run home and I got the feeling she could have done it all over again.

so to my dilemma- off lead she has absolutely no recall. Despite all my efforts over the past year nothing has worked or anything that works in house/ on long lead just does not transfer to when she's off lead. Once free she's straight into the thrill zone and I cease to exist or matter. When I say she runs I can't over-emphasise how fast :eek: Both times I've let her off lead there's it's been just luck that I managed to catch her again. Calling/ whistle/ treats/ me walking off in the other direction- none of these work although my husband starting the car did bring her back to us... though it was still a job to catch her. She also ran onto the road and stopped just short of jumping on a woman out walking. Had the lady not shouted at her at the last minute I have no doubt that she would have knocked her over at the speed she was going.
Though the turlough is reasonably remote and away from the main road there's is no guarantee no matter what time of day we go there that there won't be occasional cars/ people/ maybe even livestock.... and I don't trust her in any of those situations. Nor do I trust her not to investigate the next field and the one after that etc though she hasn't done that yet. If she spots something to chase all bets are off:(
So my dilemma- I feel she needs to run but I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping for the best when I let her do so and have been just lucky to get her back unscathed having done no damage to anything. While she can run a bit in our garden it's small and not the same, she also gets very wound up by other dogs barking and traffic on the road and untimately spends her time trying (and sometimes succeeding ) to escape... that's even with 4 of us there trying to play with her.
I'd like opinions from others- am I depriving her by not letting her loose..... should i continue with my "wing and a prayer" early morning off lead time at the turlough or knock it on the head as being too risky?:(

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kylith

IMO it is much too risky to let her off if she has no recall. If she jumps up on someone and they are injured as a result then they could classify that as an attack, and it could turn very nasty indeed, not to mention the risk to her from other dogs and traffic.

You need to find somewhere enclosed that you can let her off so that she can be safe, and you need to really knuckle down and get her recall up to scratch. If you let us know where you are I'm sure someone could recommend a trainer or obedience classes in your area.

Whispered

I would think it too risky to have her off where she can get away from you. I know you say you've tried everything with her recall but there must be something that'll work. Maybe contact a trainer to see if they can suggest anything else.

Do you have anywhere close to you which is enclosed what you could allow her off lead and work on recall there? If she can't escape then you'll be less worried and will make it easier on all of you.

For example, I ask the owner of our local kennels if I can use his paddock to work on recall, so maybe you have something like that locally.

tk123

Have you tried practicing the recall at the turlough? I found with my guy practicing on his long line at the park where he had been ignoring me worked wonders?

littlebug

kylith wrote: »

IMO it is much too risky to let her off if she has no recall. If she jumps up on someone and they are injured as a result then they could classify that as an attack, and it could turn very nasty indeed

this is why my second attempt at her being off lead had me so much more worried

she's jumping up to be friendly but she's strong and when hyper at speed could really do some damage. Aside from anything getting nasty- the woman she nearly jumped on wasn't young but was obviously active since she was out walking. One fall and a broken hip could change her life so you're right

not to mention the risk to her from other dogs and traffic.

yup... other loose dogs she's usually ok but again I can't 100% trust her.

You need to find somewhere enclosed that you can let her off so that she can be safe, and you need to really knuckle down and get her recall up to scratch

Not sure it exists:(... she easily goes over 5-6 foot walls. I've checked out local pitches etc but have found nothing secure enough.

If you let us know where you are I'm sure someone could recommend a trainer or obedience classes in your area.

I'm in south Mayo -anyone Galway/ Mayo based would be fine. We already worked with two trainers at the start which helped for the initial issues we had but not sure about them for this one so suggestions based on experience would be great.

littlebug

Whispered wrote: »

I would think it too risky to have her off where she can get away from you. I know you say you've tried everything with her recall but there must be something that'll work. Maybe contact a trainer to see if they can suggest anything else.

Do you have anywhere close to you which is enclosed what you could allow her off lead and work on recall there? If she can't escape then you'll be less worried and will make it easier on all of you.

as in reply above

For example, I ask the owner of our local kennels if I can use his paddock to work on recall, so maybe you have something like that locally.

That's a really good idea though nowhere I can think of just now... but no harm asking around.

tk123 wrote: »

Have you tried practicing the recall at the turlough? I found with my guy practicing on his long line at the park where he had been ignoring me worked wonders?

That was what I was going to try next... maybe try to get her interested in fetching something from the water if she's forced to stay near me. I've a feeling she'll get too over excited by the water/ birds etc to pay attention to me but it's worth a try.

tk123

A whistle might be a good idea too - especially if she's far away or out in the waves.

littlebug

tk123 wrote: »

A whistle might be a good idea too - especially if she's far away or out in the waves.

I spent the last week doing whistle/ treat stuff with her in the house. I would blow the whistle at random times and she would come racing from whatever room she was in to get a treat. At the turlough the whistle had no effect other than to get on my husbands nerves

When she gets either either overly anxious or overly excited I could dangle a sausage in front of her and she'll completely ignore it. I think that's why any training to date hasn't't worked (out of house) because nothing is valuable enough to her. That's why I think I need new ideas (or a trainer with new ideas).

Littlevick

Hi Littlebug,

I know how you feel and unfortunately the one thing that worked with me in the end was removal of feeds. I tried my best to avoid it as I believe all punishment should be instant as a dog isn't going to remember hours later.

You'll be surprised that she will (after a few days with little or no feed) begin to improve witht he re-call.

It's a difficult one- I don't envy you..

DBB

littlebug wrote: »

tk123 wrote: »

A whistle might be a good idea too - especially if she's far away or out in the waves.

I spent the last week doing whistle/ treat stuff with her in the house. I would blow the whistle at random times and she would come racing from whatever room she was in to get a treat. At the turlough the whistle had no effect other than to get on my husbands nerves
When she gets either either overly anxious or overly excited I could dangle a sausage in front of her and she'll completely ignore it. I think that's why any training to date hasn't't worked (out of house) because nothing is valuable enough to her. That's why I think I need new ideas (or a trainer with new ideas).

You've made great progress doing the whistle recall in the house and garden. But from what you've said so far, I think you might be making too big a leap from indoor recall to outdoor recall.
To make a smoother transition, Tk123 has already suggested what you need to do... Get a longline! Not an extending lead, but a 20+ meter tracking line, which you can buy in most pet shops.
You don't necessarily have to be holding the longline at all times, she can drag it around behind her, BUT, you must ALWAYS be within reach of it, and take care not to clothesline anyone with it!
I'd also suggest that you go to a more boring place for now, give her time to acclimatise to it, and then start your whistle recalls with the added safety of the longline... The longline prevents failure!
Also, for,other training, for now use fairly boring food rewards, but use something really nyummy for recall.
Otherwise, keep practising, practising, practising like mad, but don't set yourself up for a fall by letting her off lead until you are much more sure of her recall.

toadfly

There is a lady called Sarah her company is K9 Manners (Canine Manners on Facebook) she lives in Clonbur. Let me know if you want her number.

littlebug

thanks a million everyone, that's all really helpful.

Nearly a year ago when we had her for 3 weeks we got a trainer because I just couldn't handle her at all.... we were "this" close to bringing her back to the rescue. I had to get my husband to do all the talking to the trainer because I couldn't keep the tears in

Anyway- she got a reprieve that day and to be where we are now compared to then is just wonderful. But just seeing her run like that makes me see that I've become complacent with where we're at and despite all the walks/ jogs she needs more... I just need to figure out how to give her more in a safe way.

DBB I think you're spot on that the turlough and the water is just too exciting for her. There is another place we go to where on extendable lead she just tends to mooch around in the undergrowth and is more likely to come back to me. It's crossed my mind to let her off lead there before but when she sees other people she would tend to race toward them and given her tendency to jump on people so I've never taken the risk. However if I go early enough there may be no-one else there. I'll invest in a long training lead (she broke the last one on one of her great escape missions!) and get myself to that trail.. and keep working on finding out what treats might work best. thanks:)

Whispered

Another idea would be to go walking with another dog, who has great recall. I would imagine she'd be more likely to come back if the other dog does?

The fact you've already made such great progress with her is a good thing, you can see how quickly she can progress. So many times people want to give up because they just don't believe it can get better. At least you know you all have what it takes to work on the issue.

Does she swim, or does she just like playing around the river bank? If we miss a walk Harley can be a nightmare and like yours will run wild with zero recall. So now we bring him straight up for a swim and keep him at it until he's wrecked. Then on the walk back, he'll potter around and stay close enough to us, really appreciates his treats (swimming seems to make him hungry) and is happy to hop in the car because he want a rest! Could you try to tire her out in the water before letting her off lead?

I'd also try to make a toy that floats a very high value item to her. We just use a tennis ball. Harley only ever gets a tennis ball when he's playing, having a great time etc, so now the ball is his fav thing in the world. He could be doing anything and will stop and run to you once you bounce a tennis ball. Food treats don't work well with him, but toys do. Maybe you could try that?

DBB

Great suggestion if you can find a friend with a dog with good recall! As long as your little lady is heedful of that dog!
Just as a note, only use a longline with a harness, the longline attached to the back ring (as opposed to the front of a front-connection harness)
Never forget the progress you've already made, you're great for sticking with her through it all!:)

Wibbs

Naturally individuals will differ* but isn't it the case that in general some breeds are much less reliable with recall than others? I'm thinking of Huskies as just one example. Have any of the trainers here found this and found a dog that just couldn't be relied upon off lead, or is this an old wives tale?

On personal experience my childhood Elkhound was very unreliable. My GSD was pretty much 100% on recall. My next a GSD/Husky mix was a no hoper. Gone in milliseconds and the chase was inevitably on. Though with other commands(heel, stay, lay down, drop it etc) he was tip top.

*To illustrate, a mate of mine in the US had a proven high content f2 wolf/dog hybrid rescue that was a complete nightmare(as they pretty much always are) and not to be recommended as a "pet" under any circumstances. It was very people and dog aggressive, highly prey driven, had a go at him once or twice, destroyed his house, wouldn't sit or any of that, yet his recall was unreal. No matter the distraction, he'd come back when called. Go figure.

littlebug

Whispered wrote: »

Another idea would be to go walking with another dog, who has great recall. I would imagine she'd be more likely to come back if the other dog does?

there is a likely candidate and when I bump into them we keep saying we'll walk together sometime but never seem to get around to it but that is a possibility. That said on the first day at the turlough there were other dogs there and we thought that when they were leaving she would leave too but no... she tends to want to sniff other dogs and then she'll ignore them but walking together might be different.

Does she swim, or does she just like playing around the river bank?

she does swim but usually to get to something rather than just for the hell of it. I'll look into a floaty toy option... she's funny with toys... will run after a ball thrown in the garden and then run straight past it :rolleyes: She does love squeaky toys but then rips them to pieces but maybe a squeak would work better than whistle to bring her back:o (though I might look foolish). i'll have a think about that. I do think water is a major excitement for her though... think I read that it's a typical kerry blue characteristic? She near jumped off a boat into galway bay last week!

DBB wrote: »

Just as a note, only use a longline with a harness, the longline attached to the back ring (as opposed to the front of a front-connection harness)

I currently use a harness that has both options so I would just switch to the back ring when attaching the longline.

Never forget the progress you've already made, you're great for sticking with her through it all!:)

they have a way of getting under your skin

Everytime I find myself getting annoyed/ frustrated I think of how horrific our first day was :eek: to remind myself how far we've come.

littlebug

Wibbs wrote: »

Naturally individuals will differ* but isn't it the case that in general some breeds are much less reliable with recall than others? I'm thinking of Huskies as just one example. Have any of the trainers here found this and found a dog that just couldn't be relied upon off lead, or is this an old wives tale?

I've read that about huskies too. I have stories read (on this forum) about people not letting Kerry Blues off lead but I though it was more to do with their tendencies toward dog aggression than poor recall. But maybe it's a bit of both... in which case I haven't a chance.:( I don't think my dog is a full Kerry Blue though and I'm hoping the "other" in her (whatever that is) might shine through.

*To illustrate, a mate of mine in the US had a proven high content f2 wolf/dog hybrid rescue that was a complete nightmare(as they pretty much always are) and not to be recommended as a "pet" under any circumstances. It was very people and dog aggressive, highly prey driven, had a go at him once or twice, destroyed his house, wouldn't sit or any of that, yet his recall was unreal. No matter the distraction, he'd come back when called. Go figure. [/

you know at this stage in life I feel I can confidently say that I am good at understanding people and their behaviour and motivations. Dogs however have me completely stumped

kylith

I second the idea of a long line. When I got Tegan first I couldn't let her off lead at all because she'd vanish. I put her on a long line and I found it great because if she started to take off I could just jump on it and when she didn't come when called a quick tug on it reminded her of what she was supposed to do.

If you feel like she needs more exercise many people cycle with their dogs. There are lots of rigs available and I've heard good things about them.

doctor evil

Please, as a horse rider keep her on the lead until the recall is sorted! There is nothing more dangerous. If a dog starts to chase a horse most competent riders will turn the horse towards the dog and urge the horse at it. This could get dog kicked or trampled, mostly it is done to stop the horse from running off in fright.

I appreciate the work you have done with her. Some lightweight rope from a hardware shop or washing line may be cheaper than a long line from a pet shop. What kind of dog is she? There are some that are no hopers.

How about a greyhound track?

littlebug

Please, as a horse rider keep her on the lead until the recall is sorted! There is nothing more dangerous. If a dog starts to chase a horse most competent riders will turn the horse towards the dog and urge the horse at it. This could get dog kicked or trampled, mostly it is done to stop the horse from running off in fright.

I've never seen horses in either of the places I was considering offlead work but point taken. We have come across horses elsewhere but when I know it's a possibility she's on short lead- I wouldn't even risk her being on extendable lead.

There are some that are no hopers.

this does concern me

it's not so much that I think she needs more exercise as we cover a lot of miles between walks and slow (for her) runs. It's just that she never gets to run fast and now having seen her go and how much she loved it I wonder to what extent I'm depriving her by never letting her off. If it turns out that she is a "no hoper"

then I'll just have to accept that.... weighing up the risks to both her and other people or animals versus her getting the thrill of a fast run/ swim then I guess it isn't worth it. I just find it quite sad.

She's a kerry blue terrier (probably cross- not sure).

ppink

littlebug wrote: »

I've read that about huskies too. I have stories read (on this forum) about people not letting Kerry Blues off lead but I though it was more to do with their tendencies toward dog aggression than poor recall. But maybe it's a bit of both... in which case I haven't a chance.:( I don't think my dog is a full Kerry Blue though and I'm hoping the "other" in her (whatever that is) might shine through.

you know at this stage in life I feel I can confidently say that I am good at understanding people and their behaviour and motivations. Dogs however have me completely stumped :D

I have not read all the posts (sorry) but I had never heard of KB's having bad recall. We had one and his recall was excellent, so it can be done:). our KB also LOVED water and was a great swimmer. the excitement was jumping in getting the toy and then tearing off with you after him....the solution was to have 2 toys! when he/she comes out with one grab their attention with the other one. we use those floating kongs now and find them great. they are expensive though so you would want to be sure she/he will get it.:D

I hate talking about a dog I have not seen a picture of......(*hint:P)

evilmonkee

+1 on the long line. My newest had absolutely no lead manners never mind off lead when I got her, but now using a long line she's getting the idea.

However, as opposed to a tracing lead (the long lines mentioned by other posters), I am using an extendable lead.

I'm only using it in large area's (normal lead for walks, extendable lead for the open area's where off lead would be acceptable) - this is to ensure that she does not lose her short lead manners.

My extendable lead is 8m (they cost around €40 - which is steep compared to tracing leads both in price and length). My main reason for this is that we walk in area's where we frequently meet others who may trip over the lead. However I am finding that it is much easier to correct her immediately than with a tracing lead.

When I call her and she ignores it, I can lock it and give a little pull to get her attention. Whereas, using the tracing lead it can be harder to get a good grip on a short enough length (esp. in the rain) needed to catch the dogs attention. Also, I have friction burned my hands with tracing leads, so make sure to wear gloves.

littlebug

ppink wrote: »

I hate talking about a dog I have not seen a picture of......(*hint:P)

because I feel I've painted a really bad picture of her when she's very lovable really

Here she is looking very lovely after having just been groomed a few months ago... looks like she's had her curls straightened

and she's also here looking like her usual scruffy curly self last week.

4E2855D18F8646478739874032BCAE5C-0000331913-0002629266-00500L-6724D5F1E67649AD8CB471038E5E6287.jpg

iguana

Is your dog at all food orientated? One of my dogs normally has fine recall but as he has an incredibly strong hunting drive the one thing I find tough was getting him to give up a scent that was really, really exciting, especially if he flushed a bird (mine are springers). So I started walking them immediately before meal times and as soon as I see him start to get excited about a scenet in a way that switches his hunting drive on, I say DINNER in a really strict voice and he stops so quickly it's like a cartoon. He loves his food so he won't do anything that might jeopardise his dinner.

I'm sure some people in my area probably think I'm a weirdo who named my dog Dinner, but hell, it works.:pac:

cyrusdvirus

Whispered wrote: »

Another idea would be to go walking with another dog, who has great recall. I would imagine she'd be more likely to come back if the other dog does?

The fact you've already made such great progress with her is a good thing, you can see how quickly she can progress. So many times people want to give up because they just don't believe it can get better. At least you know you all have what it takes to work on the issue.

Does she swim, or does she just like playing around the river bank? If we miss a walk Harley can be a nightmare and like yours will run wild with zero recall. So now we bring him straight up for a swim and keep him at it until he's wrecked. Then on the walk back, he'll potter around and stay close enough to us, really appreciates his treats (swimming seems to make him hungry) and is happy to hop in the car because he want a rest! Could you try to tire her out in the water before letting her off lead?

I'd also try to make a toy that floats a very high value item to her. We just use a tennis ball. Harley only ever gets a tennis ball when he's playing, having a great time etc, so now the ball is his fav thing in the world. He could be doing anything and will stop and run to you once you bounce a tennis ball. Food treats don't work well with him, but toys do. Maybe you could try that?

I'd second all this!

I only even [EDIT] ever [/EDIT] allow my two off lead when we are walking up along the canal, which happens when i get to finish work early or every Saturday and Sunday. Abby, the 1 yr old has ok-ish recall, Gibbs is a lot better, but DOES get distracted occasionally. As soon as i take out the ball though, there could be a herd of cats (ok cats don't herd, but you get the idea, lots and lots of them!!) between me and him and they'll get ignored. As soon as Abby sees him coming back, she comes trotting along beside him.

The only problem with that approach is, (and my trainer warned me about this , and i discovered 2 weeks ago) when you DON'T have the toy/treat. Your voice has to be the point of focus and source of obedience for the dog, not the toy/treat.

2 weeks ago Abby went haring off up to another dog who's owner picked it up and started kicking at her.
Anyone who has experience with dogs would have seen that her demeanour was "HI!!!YOU'RE A NEW FRIEND, I WANNA PLAY!!!!!", front paws out stretched, head down between them ass high, tail doing a passable impression of Muttley when he flies, and bouncing about the place, but for the life of me she wouldn't come back... then Gibbs started growling cos he saw the bloke trying to kick her (and probably picked up on my "if he hurts my pup, he's going for a swim" thoughts).... So i had to clip up Gibbs, then run up to where Abby was calling her name the whole time. When she saw me running she thought this was a new game so came running back to join in... Which leads me to the fact that i need to work on her recall under voice commands, not just treat/toy incentive.

ppink

littlebug wrote: »

because I feel I've painted a really bad picture of her when she's very lovable really Here she is looking very lovely after having just been groomed a few months ago... looks like she's had her curls straightened and she's also here looking like her usual scruffy curly self last week.

ah she is so cute looking:). the pic in the basket is excellent...looks like she was thinking "well they got me a new basket and I'll just squeeeeeeeze myself in here to see":D
Do you have a dryer for her? not too bad in summer but I remember our guy in the winter was a nightmare to dry with his long coat.

littlebug

iguana wrote: »

Is your dog at all food orientated?

not really... she only eats after coming in from her night-time walk. i could have food out all day and she'll ignore it unless it's tasty human food.

I'm sure some people in my area probably think I'm a weirdo who named my dog Dinner, but hell, it works.:pac:

My husband had a dog when he was young and quite by accident they found that he would come back to them when they said "shut up" so that was his lifelong recall command

ppink wrote: »

Do you have a dryer for her? not too bad in summer but I remember our guy in the winter was a nightmare to dry with his long coat.

no and I can imagine my husbands face if I suggest buying a dryer for the dog! It does take a while to dry but she usually curls herself up by the fire or radiator and she's fine.

anyway.... after a horrible walk this morning (there were cats everywhere :eek:) I'm wondering what in the world I was thinking of starting this thread yesterday :rolleyes: I think she's too hyper and wired to ever have totally reliable recall but I'll do some work with longline anyway and see how it goes and at least she'll get some semblance of freedom. I might also make our runs a bit longer which will benefit us both and was thinking of getting canicross belt/ harness to make it easier.

doctor evil

gatecrash wrote: »

2 weeks ago Abby went haring off up to another dog who's owner picked it up and started kicking at her.
Anyone who has experience with dogs would have seen that her demeanour was "HI!!!YOU'RE A NEW FRIEND, I WANNA PLAY!!!!!", front paws out stretched, head down between them ass high, tail doing a passable impression of Muttley when he flies, and bouncing about the place, but for the life of me she wouldn't come back... then Gibbs started growling cos he saw the bloke trying to kick her (and probably picked up on my "if he hurts my pup, he's going for a swim" thoughts).... So i had to clip up Gibbs, then run up to where Abby was calling her name the whole time. When she saw me running she thought this was a new game so came running back to join in... Which leads me to the fact that i need to work on her recall under voice commands, not just treat/toy incentive.

To be fair the other folks may have had bad experiences with loose dogs, the safety of yer own dog is every walkers priority. I don't any public place that is not clear and fenced in is 'safe' for a dog with poor recall. Expect the unexpected.

Littlebug, is your girl overly fit, would it be feasible to drop her fitness a bit?

littlebug

doctor evil wrote: »

Littlebug, is your girl overly fit, would it be feasible to drop her fitness a bit?

I didn't think a dog could be overly-fit.. but she is very fit I think. I don't really want to drop that as it's good for both of us

littlebug

well we're just back from a very successful trail walk

I had her on a longline (9m- the best I could get locally) and had my whistle and little bag of yummy chicken pieces. It didn't start so well when the first dog we met was the only one she's ever managed to get into a scrap with :rolleyes: No matter what, those two aren't ever going to be friends so there was a wee bit of scrambling between me and other dog owner to make sure they didn't connect :rolleyes: After that we were up the hill and on the trail and though recall wasn't perfect the in-house stuff I've been doing is obviously paying off. I would say that maybe 75% of the time she would come back from either "whistle" +saying "treat" or just saying "treat" on its own. She would come bounding back all smiles and sit patiently at my feet waiting for her treat:) Even a couple of times when she saw people in the distance she still came back for me. I even let the line trail a few times (with my heart in my mouth!) . Progress:). I think I need to keep water out of the mix for now.

cyrusdvirus

doctor evil wrote: »

To be fair the other folks may have had bad experiences with loose dogs, the safety of yer own dog is every walkers priority. I don't any public place that is not clear and fenced in is 'safe' for a dog with poor recall. Expect the unexpected.

Littlebug, is your girl overly fit, would it be feasible to drop her fitness a bit?

i'm not going to argue with you but Abby is quite obviously a puppy, and has all the associated puppy behaviour

By quite obviously i mean when you see her, not that you should have picked it up from the thread!!