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Are Irish people too soft or just gullible?

profitius

Letting international fraudsters take billions of Euro from us without putting up a fight.

The Icelandic people said no and the banks backed down. Little Iceland of a few hundred thousand people. Enda Kenny and his friends meanwhile talked up a good game before the last general election but when it came to actions he backed down like the cowards they are.

Brian Cowen and Lenihan helped get us into this mess. Not only that but they were getting advice from the same international bankers thats robbing every country! Now we'll get loans from the same bankers and they'll charge us interest. You couldn't make this up! Its almost comical at this stage.

You also have the media saying we owe this or we owe that. No we don't. The Irish media are a bunch of gullible fools too.

David McWilliams, Irish economist, broadcaster, and writer, says of the IMF, ‘It is not here to bail us out; it is here to bail [the banks] out. The bailout is a bailout for the banks of Germany and France and the Irish taxpayer foots the bill. It is that simple. And where will the EU and IMF money come from? It will be borrowed from the very investment banks that will be bailed out. So they will get interest payments from us, in order that we pay for their mistakes.’

But to answer my own question maybe we just have to take a look at Bertie Ahern. He ran the country into the ground but... he has a nice personality! :rolleyes:

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profitius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YC5XjFHoMA

Domo230 wrote: »

If I can ever afford to get into college I would like to study economics so I can get a real picture as to whether we are being shafted or if we are just dont know what were talking about and every suggestion the public has made is being ignored because it is a load of crap.

Somebody recently said they were shocked after learning how banks and the monetary system really works. He was shocked because he studied economics and it was never explained to him or any others there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tllkrJT5yi8

Biggins

TheZohan wrote: »

A bunch of moaners that do nothing and if anyone does try to do something or protest we moan about them too.

Yep. Spot on.

df1985

"ah sure itll be grand"

Sums up Ireland for me.

saywhatyousee

Deleted User wrote: »

It is free. People make free choices to elect corrupt scumbags. You are also free to run for election and change things for the better. I, for one, would be in favour of establishing a new political party, since none of the current ones actually represent the interests of the people.

I believe in a true democracy political parties should not exist.All political parties are good for is to unify candidates so they can me easily manipulated and be controlled into implementing the will of the establishment.Also politicians should only be allowed to serve one 4 year term and never be able to seek re-election that i think would stamp out a lot of corruption.

bradlente

Threads like this sum it up really,Lots of complaining from keyboards.Most people that are affected by this have higher priorities than protesting such as feeding,Clothing and housing their families.

I wouldn't say people are that gullible.I haven't heard someone say "it'll be grand" in years,More like the widespread rhetoric of statements like "de countries ****ed" and "it'll only get worse".We're definitely naive as a nation though imo.

Mungbean has it spot on I think,Everyone is out for themselves and I might even add that the majority of people in this country haven't really suffered that badly since the bust.In places like Iceland the people were more unified whereas in this country it seems like everyones turned on each other.The public service,SW and ordinary working men and women aren't unified by the problems the country is in,Then the mainstream media further increases the apathy by generally just being a bit ****.

pragmatic1

The difference between us and Iceland is that they had legislation in place which allowed them to create a good bank almost immediately. As a result they could keep personal saving safe. We didnt have that tool.

Blisterman

I have yet to see any protest relating to the current financial crisis, where any reasonable alternative solution was articulated.

Most of the protester's views on the situation seem to be extremely simplified, and based mainly around the idea that the money spent on bankers bonuses would be sufficient to maintain current public spending levels.

John Doe1

The problem is after years of being ruled over we are a very deferent society, its why we let the church take over where the brits left off.

sgb

Blisterman wrote: »

around the idea that the money spent on bankers bonuses would be sufficient to maintain current public spending levels.

Don't know anyone who has this point of view, bankers bonuses are highlighted because it shows how the country has been run

bradlente

Blisterman wrote: »

I have yet to see any protest relating to the current financial crisis, where any reasonable alternative solution was articulated.

Most of the protester's views on the situation seem to be extremely simplified, and based mainly around the idea that the money spent on bankers bonuses would be sufficient to maintain current public spending levels.

Thats true.

A bit of accountability for the people who caused some of the big problems would go a long way to satisfy people I think.The relationships some executives and politicians have had over the years is very unsettling.Whilst its a bit silly to argue that people can't be friends with other people,The vested interests many had when taking government positions in the US is truly shocking.

As far as our country is concerned,I would say many might be afraid of change and/or reform,Combine that with being naive or gullible or deferent as someone mentioned,The result is to vote in the same crowd in a different suit to try and maintain the status quo.

cosmicfart

TheZohan wrote: »

A bunch of moaners that do nothing and if anyone does try to do something or protest we moan about them too.

ha ha nail on head

its a shame you could not sum it up in one word though

Jopari87

hondasam wrote: »

Do we really want to see riots on the street, people attacking each other, it will solve nothing.
When we had the opportunity to elect a new government we did, our choice who is in there. Next time we should all refuse to vote.

There seems to be this idea that if we just go out and protest our problem's will be solved. I'd prefer Irish people to come up with genuine alternative's rather than protest for protest's sake.

Greece's 50% discount did not come about because of protests, it's because the euro will fail unless something was done. That protests were happening was just coincidental.

K-9

cosmicfart wrote: »

ha ha nail on head its a shame you could not sum it up in one word though

There is a word, it's been used for decades, begrudgers.

Blisterman

I have to say, reading the British press, Ireland is held by many as a positive example of how to deal with the situation. Rather than rioting or protesting, which isn't going to achieve much, and instead just causes problems, people are just getting on with things. That's the only way this can be resolved. There's no magic bullet.

MungBean

K-9 wrote: »

The opposition doesn't really have a plan, take the Shinners who want us to default and then moan about a few Billion of cuts. If we defaulted we'd have to cut by 20 Billion!

Similar to the Occupy protests. There's a reason they want to keep things simple and vague.

^^
This is the answer to your question OP. People would rather moan about the opposition than the people who created/continue the policies that are the problem.

Its not about the oppositions plan as they arent in flippin government, its about what the government are doing to sort this mess. Which so happens is the exact same thing the last one did to create it.

cosmicfart

K-9 wrote: »

There is a word, it's been used for decades, begrudgers.

thats doesnt encapsulate the Irish sense of humour though. Please try again.

bradlente

MungBean wrote: »

^^
This is the answer to your question OP. People would rather moan about the opposition than the people who created/continue the policies that are the problem.

Its not about the oppositions plan as they arent in flippin government, its about what the government are doing to sort this mess. Which so happens is the exact same thing the last one did to create it.

What was Labours motto in the election again?

"our way not Frankfurts way" or something?:D

MungBean

bradlente wrote: »

What was Labours motto in the election again?

"our way not Frankfurts way" or something?:D

When it should have been "Party for sale, will swap votes for outrageous salaries/pensions"

Jopari87

Blisterman wrote: »

I have to say, reading the British press, Ireland is held by many as a positive example of how to deal with the situation. Rather than rioting or protesting, which isn't going to achieve much, and instead just causes problems, people are just getting on with things. That's the only way this can be resolved. There's no magic bullet.

Also we have just been ranked the 7th most developed country in the world by the UN.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1103/1224306978325.html

That's not to say Ireland doesn't have lots of problems but it's not all doom and gloom.

kincsem

profitius wrote: »

Now we'll get loans from the same bankers and they'll charge us interest. You couldn't make this up! Its almost comical at this stage.

Yeah, that's wrong. We should get free money.

MungBean

kincsem wrote: »

Yeah, that's wrong. We should get free money.

Get a load of this guy.

Wetai

K-9 wrote: »

There is a word

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow

K-9

MungBean wrote: »

^^
This is the answer to your question OP. People would rather moan about the opposition than the people who created/continue the policies that are the problem.

Its not about the oppositions plan as they arent in flippin government, its about what the government are doing to sort this mess. Which so happens is the exact same thing the last one did to create it.

Nah, it's the political cynic in me.

The Shinners just moan about everything, it's all they ever do. Sure Doherty is laughable when questioned about his economic policies. There are some nieve people who believe them, bless!

The Occupy people have nice, general ideals, that's about it. But if you want to change something you need a plan, not a few vague platitudes.

binxeo

I wish I could comment more intellectually on this matter, but no matter how hard I try to understand what is going on I am lost. And I don't think I am the only one tbh I think the government know that a lot of Irish people are in the dark on this or simply can not understand the lingo and what is going and they prey on this and make their decisions while most of us are in a cloud of economic terms and bailouts and all the rest of it.

I wish someone could do a step by step, clear concise description of what is happening with the economy right now.

MungBean

K-9 wrote: »

Nah, it's the political cynic in me.

The Shinners just moan about everything, it's all they ever do. Sure Doherty is laughable when questioned about his economic policies. There are some nieve people who believe them, bless!

The Occupy people have nice, general ideals, that's about it. But if you want to change something you need a plan, not a few vague platitudes.

Moaning is pretty much all the opposition can do. I just found and still find it annoying when people throw out the "Well whats your plan if your so feckin smart?" argument as some sort of acceptance that nothing else can be done.

FG & Labour dont have to adopt SF's manifesto or Economic policies they just have to deal with this one particular issue. And that issue is that a lot of people dont agree with the bondholders being paid pack, there is no obligation to do so as laid down by the IMF/EU and that it should be debated and transparent given that the banking crisis has crippled the country and is the sole reason FF were wiped out in the last general election.

We are still in the same position as when FF made the guarantee for christ sake. We have not changed anything in relation to dealing with Anglo and its still being operated behind a curtain with the government refusing to talk about it and just claiming their hands are tied but hang in there and we'll struggle through.

I know people dont want riots in the street and I dont want to see them myself. But the government is pushing people in that direction by ignoring this issue. It should be dealt with more transparently, open for debate (no matter how ridiculous you think it is) so the people can know whats happening. When the cutbacks hit in the budget people will not be happy. I think the cuts shock a lot of people who have been led along by FG and Labour who dismiss the seriousness of the situation we are in.

We are expected to be back in the bond markets in 2013. The budget will be severe and it will piss a lot of people off and the fact that the bondholders were all paid off behind their back as such will be basis for demanding cuts to be rescinded I think. SF/ULA and other groups will hit the streets after the budget, only question is how many will follow and this sort of pandering to EU interests against the will of the people will push people out onto the streets when the times comes. And as it stands I'll be fcukin joining em.

K-9

The cuts would still have to made, regardless of payments to bondholders, most people know that. The question is a matter of fairness.

And protest can work, it worked in the 80's for PAYE workers. It needs a pretty clear aim though, something the PD's took on when they were founded and every mainstream party adopted.

Crazy Horse 6

jonnny68 wrote: »

Absolutely, look at people in Greece out demonstrating in their hundreds of thousands, this country is quite possibly the most corrupt in the civilised world and it beggars belief why people have allowed this to happen, people like Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen,Sean Fitzpatrick,etc,etc,etc should be rotting in jail for what they have done to this country yet these people live a grand life while people struggle on the dole to make ends meet and people emigrate in their droves because there are no jobs,people losing their homes,etc.

What Ireland needs is a Revolution and change, real change because this poxy Government are every bit as bad as the last one.

No they are much much worse and i hated FF

Crazy Horse 6

Blisterman wrote: »

I have to say, reading the British press, Ireland is held by many as a positive example of how to deal with the situation. Rather than rioting or protesting, which isn't going to achieve much, and instead just causes problems, people are just getting on with things. That's the only way this can be resolved. There's no magic bullet.

Many people are'nt "getting on with things". Many people are choosing to take their own life. Suicide is an epidemic in this country and i'll bet the British press are'nt talking about that.

You really believe protesting does'nt achieve much?

wolfpawnat

mikemac wrote: »

Relax OP, we've turned a corner

We turned 4, and now we are exactly where we started again!!!!

But OT

The Dame street occupiers are heckled by many for what they are doing.

If people took to the streets there would be some violence and the whole country would condemn it. Same as any rally that happens really

profitius

binxeo wrote: »

I wish I could comment more intellectually on this matter, but no matter how hard I try to understand what is going on I am lost. And I don't think I am the only one tbh I think the government know that a lot of Irish people are in the dark on this or simply can not understand the lingo and what is going and they prey on this and make their decisions while most of us are in a cloud of economic terms and bailouts and all the rest of it.

I wish someone could do a step by step, clear concise description of what is happening with the economy right now.

Not many people understand it. I'll try to explain.

To put it in the simplest terms possible. You have to go back in history.
-Goldsmiths were the first bankers.
-People then used to give goldsmiths their gold to mind.
-After a while the goldsmiths realised that most people never took out their gold so the goldsmiths started to lend it for interest.
-They were the first bankers. They got very wealthy by loaning out money.

-The wealthier the bankers got the more influence they had over politicians.
-The bankers soon realised that they could control nations by controling the money supply.
-So the corrupt politicians were easily bribed and we ended up wih todays money system.

-The system today is a debt based system controlled by the banks.
-This means there has to be more debt than money available.
-When somebody takes out a loan new money is created by the banks.
-More and more money is created and more and more debt is created.
-There always has to be more debt to make the system work and people are in debt to the bankers.
-Eventually it spirals out of control, like whats happening now. Theres no way out of it.

-Governments do not print their own money these days after the politicians sold out or are too idiotic to understand how the system operates.
-Instead the governments have to borrow it off private banks who give the wrong impression that they are public banks ie Bank of England is private etc.
-Interest then has to be paid on the borrowed money.

-The USA was at war with international bankers for hundreds of years. Many US presidents got shot because they wanted the USA government to control the money supply and not the banks. Abraham Lincon, Garfield etc.
-Nowadays the USA money supply is controlled by foreign bankers and they have a debt based system.

-Gobalisation allows bankers to get every country playing by their rules.
-Local currencies are hated by the international bankers because they help keep wealth in the locality.
-Wars are very profitable and politicans are easy to corrupt. Put 2 and 2 together.

I've just tried to sum it all up off the top of my head. It looks more complicated in real life because its designed that way. If it was straight forward everybody could see it. Irish people are getting robber as we speak in the form of taxes, fines and tolls etc. Few people realises it.

David McWilliams is the one Irish economist who understands whats going on. There might be others but hes the most high profile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpHp_deaBs8