andyjo wrote: » For someone with only a few dozen posts, you seem to know ISAW very well....;) He has posted five and a half thousand posts. Have you read them all ?
ISAW wrote: » If i recall, at the time i pointed that out i.e. that in my experience lay teachers were much worse and more frequent in their abuse.
ISAW wrote: » It isn't a "catholic source". The source is the John Jay report.
Andrew49 wrote: » Ahem, ALL the data used in the John Jay report was provided by .... guess who? ..... the US Catholic Church!
ISAW wrote: » Ireland does not give a special position to the church! It was removed decades ago. Article 40.6.1.3
ISAW wrote: » No only properties much much bigger than schools. Your mask is slipping. you have switched from the point of "child abuse" being related to golf clubs as a comparison between the Church and other organisations such as golf clubs to a clear attack on the church as having a "special place" in the constitution and which should not be allowed in education or to have control over schools. If people want the local golf club management to run a school they have the right to campaign for that.
ISAW wrote: » Well now you are off on another tangent! If a golf club wants to run a hospital they are free to do so. AS iot happens religious orders did it for a pittance . The current "workers rights" public service run hospitals cost us billions per year!
ISAW wrote: » What evidence shows it was worse than the non-Church management?
ISAW wrote: » No it didn't.
ISAW wrote: » You have been shown Magdalen Asylums were NOT set up by the Roman Church but by Protestants!
ISAW wrote: » Doubtfull. There again was not Church collusion. I have already referred to Sr. Patricia and Cherish.
ISAW wrote: » There have been no cases about such "crimes" let alone convictions! This is all a fiction. You are making up things you can't support! You conspiracy theory of "cover up" just doesn't wash! Where is you evidence?
ISAW wrote: » It was a survey on Catholic priests. Your point being?
ISAW wrote: » All data in the Irish census was provided by guess who .. the Irish people.
Andrew49 wrote: » Don't be idiotic. During the era of the Industrial Schools the Catholic Church had a Special Position in the Constitution.
Don't be idiotic.
If a golf club wants to run a hospital they are free to do so. AS iot happens religious orders did it for a pittance . The current "workers rights" public service run hospitals cost us billions per year!
Silly question. Don't be idiotic.
Yes it did.
On that kind of idiotic 'logic' the Wright Brothers were responsible for the Concorde crashing.
Don't be idiotic
Andrew49 wrote: » My point is that the US Catholic Church has lied it's way through this scandal and are not to be trusted. You can trust them if you like, but intelligent people will not trust them to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth.
Wrong.... AGAIN! All data in the Irish census was provided by people living in Ireland - and not all of them are Irish. Get a grip. And get your head out of that new missal.
The Health Service Executive (HSE) has AGAIN pledged to improve services for young people in its care after the latest figures revealed 35 young people who were known to social services have died over the past 18 months. It’s another shocking indictment on the State and the scant regard that is paid to child safeguarding by many who are charged with looking after children and vulnerable young people. How many more reports do we need into children who are neglected by the HSE before real action is taken? How many more children will die while HSE mandarins and Government ministers continue to promise to improve the situation? The deaths include children who were known to social services or previously had contact with child protection services. Three children were in the direct care system at the time of their death. Three children died as a result of serious abuse. The independent chair of the group, Dr Helen Buckley of Trinity College Dublin, criticised the HSE for numerous failures which led to sub-standard care. In one case highlighted – the death of a four-month old baby “Baby G” – it took almost two years for social services to meet face-to-face with the child’s mother, despite serious welfare concerns for her family.What seems shocking, to me at least, is the fact that children at risk of abuse is not always a high-profile news story in Ireland. The children who died while the HSE ought to have been looking after them made the front page on only one of this morning’s national newspapers.
gimmebroadband wrote: » More child deaths, more broken promises
gigino wrote: » And what has that to do with clerical child abuse, the subject of this thread ? Incidentally, looking at all of the abuse from the Catholic church and seeing how our government cannot even keep children alive in this day and age, perhaps we should do what Gay byrne suggested : hand the country back to the British with a note of apology.;) Would there have been as much clerical child sex abuse, as much abuse and exploitation of poor women in Magdalene laundries, and as many children killed in the past ten years in Ireland ( which you highlight in your post ) if we were not independent. The millions of Irish who emiograted to the UK over past past century were more free than many people left here in Ireland, because the police in UK did not turn a blind eye to clerical child abuse. As you say, the state here failed children, even in the past ten years when it came to the simpler situation of children in care.
gimmebroadband wrote: » Take a gander at the new thread title, merged. That means ALL child abuse!
gimmebroadband wrote: » When you say clerical, I assume it's all denominations!
gigino wrote: » In this country has there ever been an example of clerical child abuse in other denominations ? Most clerics I cam across in other denominations seemed normal , happily married folk.
gigino wrote: » As I thought, no proof or evidence in Ireland of clerical child abuse in other denominations , at least in reasonably modern times. I suppose there are fewer clerics in the other denominations, and the ones there are, usually seem to be normal family folk, happily married with children themselves.
Festus wrote: » much child abuse is carried out by seemingly normal family folk, happily married on their own children.
Festus wrote: » Because is hasn't been reported in the media does not mean it has not happened nor been investigated.
gigino wrote: » And what has that to do with clerical child abuse, the subject of this thread ?
Would there have been as much clerical child sex abuse, as much abuse and exploitation of poor women in Magdalene laundries, and as many children killed in the past ten years in Ireland ( which you highlight in your post ) if we were not independent.
As you say, the state here failed children, even in the past ten years when it came to the simpler situation of children in care.
PDN wrote: » No it doesn't. It means that a number of different threads on Clerical Child Abuse were merged.
gigino wrote: » source ? Of course it could have happened but generally speaking normal happily married people have each other for their sexual and physical needs. Generally women as well would be humane to victims and their influence would rub off and make it less likely ( than a club of celibate men ) to agree to have abusers shifted from Parish to Parish, as happened in the Catholic church.
ISAW wrote: » the SAVI report for starters wher you posted about abuse being "endemic" for weeks! In that report clerical abuse was 1.7 per cent and abuse by family members abd babysitters were each up at around 20% plus. I also offered the Kincora Boys home as an example. the whole "feminist" angle was explored and advanced i.e. that "rape" was the worst crime ( of course only men could rape) Later when this issue became tired an all male target had to be identified. well priests fit that category. Ther is no strong evidence to suggest that women in power are less likely to abuse it than men in power. Very few pedophile priests were shifted from parish to parish. i doubt you can provide ten examples for the entire world in the last fifty years. It was not restricted to Cathoplics and your idea that celibacy is connected to pedophilia is also a non runner and has been gone into in depth. And when priests were shifted or prosecutions not taken it was sometimes done at the behest of the family. You seem to have forgotten or ignored the entire debate.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692&page=83 particularly post 1231 where the celibacy argument and the other denominations argument are referenced to you.
ISAW wrote: » the discussion was about institutional ( Run by Catholics) abuse and the comparison was made to State Run institutions over the last decade. It isnt a "what if" it is a comparison of two definite from history. One over a period of 70 years resulted in no deaths and another in a period of ten years resulted in over 200 deaths.
ISAW wrote: » Which si significant to the thread because it points out the church didnt do as bad .
ISAW wrote: » Elsewhere such as in the UK Australia etc. the state also failed so that points to the whole "blame the church" lobby as in error.
ISAW wrote: » For information/clarificationhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65076556&postcount=1 and UPDATE: 27/3/10All child abuse threads are now merged into one Clerical Child Abuse megathread.
gigino wrote: » Don't you remember when this information was given to you some time ago? In the SAVI report the percentage of religous clerics and religous teachers ( brothers etc ) combined is 5.8%.
See the SAVI report. I even produced the table report from it in post 1216. Do pay attention.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692&page=82
If you look up the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the ( Roman Catholic ) Archdiocese of Dublin. http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml , it says in black and white "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics".
However, 75 per cent of children who are sexually abused are violated by members of their own family, or by trusted adults known to them in their daily lives. .. The Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland (SAVI) Report (2002) showed that 23 per cent of Irish men and 30 per cent of Irish women had unwanted sexual experiences in childhood.
Given Religous clerics " are" - and they use present tense only about 3 or 4 thousand strong, thats a very high percentage considering the population of the country is , what 4 million ?
What surprises me is gigino's inability to distinguish between "4% of abuse cases were committed by priests" and "4% of priests committed abuse".
You do not think it scandalous that 5% of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics?
That twhat the Dublin Archdiocese says, and it should know. Some people would think its a lot higher than that, given the RC track record for hush-hushing instances of child abuse / trying to reserve the right not to inform the authorities etc,
PDN wrote: » For your information/clarification. The phrase "All child abuse threads" is obviously referred to under a heading that reads "PLEASE READ: CLERICAL CHILD ABUSE THREADS" It should be obvious to anyone that not every child abuse thread anywhere on the internet was merged into this one. The threads that were merged here all referred to Clerical Child Abuse.
Now, please understand that this thread is to discuss Clerical Child Abuse - and that definition is not open for debate or discussion. If you wish to discuss child abuse in general then, to be honest, another Forum is probably more appropriate.
Please feel free to post away on the subject of Clerical Child Abuse, and leave it to the mods to do the moderating.
ISAW wrote: » The 5.8 % does not refer to clergy alone.
ISAW wrote: » That does not mean five percent of abusers are clerics
ISAW wrote: » But you can't discuss clerical child abuse unless you related it to the level of Child abuse in general.
