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Luas ticket machine fault, fare €45

sean29

Hi All,

When I was buying a return ticket the coins got stuck in the machine (3.30) and I had to travel without a ticket. On my way back I got fined 45 euro.

I appealed saying that I lost my money in the machine but my appeal was rejected. It only stated 'the fare stands still as you were unable to produce a valid ticket.

I appealed again saying to check reports/ cameras from that morning. Today I received an e-mail saying:

I am in receipt of your latest email and wish to advise you that our daily reporting system was checked and there was no report recorded for a faulty ticket vending machine (TVM). Also that our Appeals Committee considered your appeal at a recent meeting and it was unanimously decided that your appeal was unsuccessful as you were unable to produce a valid ticket while travelling on Luas. In these circumstances your standard Fare notice remains in place and must be paid within 14 days. This now completes the appeals procedure and no further correspondence on the matter will be entered into

Should I wait for them to bring me to the court or is there some other institution I could go into?

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Comments

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Return or not it doesn't change the fact that he paid for the journey and the machine refused to issue a ticket.

OP paid for return, it doesn't matter what direction he was going in.

OP hadn't got a ticket to cover his journey regardless of if he paid for it or not.

Your ticket is your proof that a journey was paid for. Had OP got a ticket and as such proof he paid, yes or no?:)

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The story wasn't out of context

No, it was out of context. Forgetting your wallet in Superquinn is not the same as the Luas ticket machine stealing your money.

Losty Dublin wrote:

Your ticket is your proof that a journey was paid for.

You are absolutely right. However, not having a ticket is not proof you didn't pay, is it?:)

PseudoFamous

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Had OP got a ticket and as such proof he paid, yes or no?:)

He did not have a ticket, but I would consider CCTV footage as proof enough that he paid. People seldom go up to the ticket machine and put things other than money into the machine, ysee.

Keith186

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

Try get a free journey once a week you'll have your unjust fine paid for in 4 months or so.

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined.

If you honestly did pay for the ticket then its a matter of principle that you make sure you get even.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

No, it was out of context. Forgetting your wallet in Superquinn is not the same as the Luas ticket machine stealing your money.

Yes, the machine went out to steal his money :rolleyes:

n97 mini wrote: »

You are absolutely right. However, not having a ticket is not proof you didn't pay, is it?:)

Whatever idea you are trying to come up with here (And I doubt if you even know yourself), it doesn't escape the fact that OP hadn't got a ticket for either journey and deserved the fine levied onto him.

Losty Dublin

PseudoFamous wrote: »

He did not have a ticket, but I would consider CCTV footage as proof enough that he paid. People seldom go up to the ticket machine and put things other than money into the machine, ysee.

All the CCTV will show is somebody at the machine pressing buttons. Assuming the footage is kept by the time it comes to appeal, that is.

Losty Dublin

Keith186 wrote: »

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined..

What happens you when they ask for proper ID and not the ones they sell in head shops or Viz?:D

Keith186

Losty D he didn't have a ticket because the machine didn't give him one.

Look at it from the customers POV, no way in hell I'd go and pay for another ticket I've already paid for!

If you paid for shopping and didn't get a receipt and security stopped you leaving the store and accused you of stealing how would you feel?

N97 is correct with his/her point about no ticket doesn't prove that he didn't pay for one.

PseudoFamous

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What happens you when they ask for proper ID and not the ones they sell in head shops or Viz?:D

You beat feet, that's what you do.

Losty Dublin

Keith186 wrote: »

Losty D he didn't have a ticket because the machine didn't give him one.

Look at it from the customers POV, no way in hell I'd go and pay for another ticket I've already paid for!

If you paid for shopping and didn't get a receipt and security stopped you leaving the store and accused you of stealing how would you feel?

N97 is correct with his/her point about no ticket doesn't prove that he didn't pay for one.

Keith, nobody is disputing that the machine wasn't able to give him a ticket. However you can't travel without a ticket, he didn't go to the other machine (All stations have at least two, some more) and he took his chances and was caught later in the day when he could have bought a ticket or contacted Luas to get his money back. The only proof the inspectors have that you paid your fare and that you have the right to travel is by you having a ticket; it's not onus for passenger to meet in all honesty, is it?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Yes, the machine went out to steal his money :rolleyes:

Don't be silly.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Whatever idea you are trying to come up with here (And I doubt if you even know yourself), it doesn't escape the fact that OP hadn't got a ticket for either journey and deserved the fine levied onto him.

Hadn't got a ticket, sure. But he paid for them, so why should he be fined? Is this about justice or a "told you so" attitude from you?

Keith186

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Keith, nobody is disputing that the machine wasn't able to give him a ticket. However you can't travel without a ticket

The machine can't take his money and not give him a ticket and then the inspector fine him for the privilege to top it off!

He's looking for anyway to correct the situation now, not to be told put up or shut up.

If his story is true then it's completely unjust that he has to pay the fine, no matter what way you look at it.

Victor

Keith186 wrote: »

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

Try get a free journey once a week you'll have your unjust fine paid for in 4 months or so.

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined.

If you honestly did pay for the ticket then its a matter of principle that you make sure you get even.

Its 0715 and my sarcasm detector isn't working at the moment. However, advising people to take a legally perilous route is unacceptable.

d1975

there are 4 ticket machines at the Luas stop you could have used the other ones

the inspectors can be hearing your type of story every day "I did this" "I put Money in" "Nothing came out" etc...

Sorry for your troubles better pay the fine

BrianD

n97 mini wrote: »

Considering the machine took his money for a return ticket, I think it's fair enough that he made a return journey.

It's not because he hasn't got a valid ticket to travel and he knows that. By extension, I could apply the same logic if I lost my ticket or it was stolen. I have still paid for the travel even though I no longer have the ticket.

There has to be rules otherwise it is impossible to run public transport. The OP had two options - buy another ticket or travel with the possibility of receiving a standard fare.

There was also ample opportunity for him to avail of LUAS customer service by contacting them.

Keith186 wrote:

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

€45 is the standard fare unless you buy a ticket from a machine.

In all fairness, the OP was well aware of the risks when he boarded a tram for a second time without a ticket.

Instead of writing to Veolia for a refund of €3.30 he is now paying €45 and a possible court appearance.

Del2005

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Luas drivers don't have any contact with passengers so that's a non option.

They are not robots.

The OP was getting on a early morning tram, they could have entered at front and told the driver as they got on. It's a glass door and a conversation with a customer would be better then some stuff that gets in.

Or they could have called customer care as soon as it opened.

Losty Dublin

Del2005 wrote: »

They are not robots.

The OP was getting on a early morning tram, they could have entered at front and told the driver as they got on. It's a glass door and a conversation with a customer would be better then some stuff that gets in.

Or they could have called customer care as soon as it opened.

The driver is ther to do just that; drive. As it is, isn't there a sign on Luas cabs asking people not to contact the driver?

n97 mini

BrianD wrote: »

By extension, I could apply the same logic if I lost my ticket or it was stolen.

You couldn't as Veolia aren't responsible for you or for thieves.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

You couldn't as Veolia aren't responsible for you or for thieves.

\Well it's exactly the same principle that you are making; one of sure it's paid for and you just have to take me at my word on it

sean29

Thanks everyone for replies.

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is likely that some of the scumbags that plague the luas red line have found a way to block the coin slots and when your coins get stuck and you walk away they come along later and empty the coin chute into their pockets.

I thought that was not possible until this morning! I took the luas at 5.30 again and I overheard the driver talking on his 'walkie talkie' that the machine ate some bloke's money a second ago! How about that?

In the meantime still no answer for my 3rd e-mail.

n97 mini

sean29 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for replies.

I thought that was not possible until this morning! I took the luas at 5.30 again and I overheard the driver talking on his 'walkie talkie' that the machine ate some bloke's money a second ago! How about that?

In the meantime still no answer for my 3rd e-mail.

Keep a diary of things like that in the meantime. Anything you hear or see.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

\Well it's exactly the same principle that you are making; one of sure it's paid for and you just have to take me at my word on it

Well it's not. In this case he gave his money to Veolia and they took it.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Well it's not. In this case he gave his money to Veolia and they took it.

So he says; they say otherwise but neither of us can prove it. Regardless, he still traveled without a ticket and was caught, money eaten or not

BrianD

n97 mini wrote: »

You couldn't as Veolia aren't responsible for you or for thieves.

Yes you could. Veolia are responsible for the act of a machine not issuing a ticket - and there's a route to obtain recompense. They are not responsible for you then choosing to ignore the by laws. That's watertight.

You are correct in that you have paid for a ticket that you have not received but you also have no entitlement to travel until you receive that ticket. That second bit is both clear and obvious.

n97 mini

Well if people want to resort to the Bye Laws as opposed to exercising common sense, there is no penalty for not paying the standard fare of €45.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Well if people want to resort to the Bye Laws as opposed to exercising common sense, there is no penalty for not paying the standard fare of €45.

Apart from a court summons for not paying it.

And a probable conviction at court.

And a fine and probable criminal record that will come with the conviction.

Now exercise whatever common sense out of that what you will.

Victor

OP, I'm informed that the machines keep a log of all activity, including attempted transactions. That may decide your mind, but realise time may be against you.

n97 mini wrote: »

Well if people want to resort to the Bye Laws as opposed to exercising common sense, there is no penalty for not paying the standard fare of €45.

The offence would be not having a ticket in the first place, which is in breach of the bye-laws and the relevant acts.

n97 mini

Victor wrote: »

The offence would be not having a ticket in the first place, which is in breach of the bye-laws and the relevant acts.

The punishment for not having a ticket is being issued with a standard fare. There is no punishment in the bye laws for not paying the standard fare (read the bye laws yourself).

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

The punishment for not having a ticket is being issued with a standard fare. There is no punishment in the bye laws for not paying the standard fare (read the bye laws yourself).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0055/sec0066.html#sec66

Read and inwardly digest before your next post.

myself69

n97 mini wrote: »

The punishment for not having a ticket is being issued with a standard fare. There is no punishment in the bye laws for not paying the standard fare (read the bye laws yourself).

Hmmm this is interesting. Here is the bye-laws:

Standard fare

4. (1) A passenger, on entering a light rail vehicle, who is not in possession of a valid ticket, is liable to pay the standard fare.

(2) A passenger who is on a light rail vehicle without a valid ticket shall pay the standard fare to an authorised person immediately or, at the discretion of the authorised person and where the authorised person is satisfied as to the name and address of the passenger, within a period of 14 days of having so entered the light rail vehicle, to the operator concerned.

(3) An authorised person shall issue the relevant ticket to a passenger who has paid the standard fare and such a ticket entitles the passenger to travel to the next terminus.

(4) Where a passenger is found on a light rail vehicle without a valid ticket by an authorised person and the passenger refuses to pay the standard fare immediately, the authorised person may request the passenger to leave the light rail vehicle at the next stop and the passenger shall comply with such a request.

(5) In this Bye-law “standard fare” means a fare of €45.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/si/0100.html

So not paying the standard fare just gets you kicked off. However, the RPA says you could be fined 1000euro in the district court. Where is the district court law.