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AL Cadet programme

Bearcat

hearing rumours of announcement v shortly of a cadet programme.........:)

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kona

XWB wrote: »

Well my brother in law is in accounting in Aer Lingus and I was out for pints tonight and as we are talking about it here I slipped the question in. He said that he had seen all the figures for training estimates etc...but he expects that they will earn similer to the Ryanair base pay.(28k).
Also the 100k figure covers your training only and not the TR. So you will be in the red for more than 100k.

Let me tell you now. When I was in year one on the line I lost 25% of my wage per year to pay off the bond...and that was all I had to pay...I had no loan to pay off either....and I hadnt met the ball and chain yet...but I was still struggling to make end meet.

I would imagine them to take more now given the current ejecter seat culture in the airline.So 25% of 28k is 7k..so we're down to 21k...then your loan repayment..and then tax.
It will actually be worse than Ryanair on those figures...because they dont really pay tax there..

Ouch, so how long before you would start bringing in a decent wage, maybe 40k+?

SRiTURBO

Just to clarify, 28k in Ryanair is after tax. My mate is in there and has only just started. He earns 50E an hour and flys 900 hours year which equates to 45k a year before tax. Feel free to prove me wrong but quite a few people have told me that.

Railjon

The Independant article on the cadetship stated that E60k was the starting salary for cadets, but not sure if this includes sector pay, bonds etc.

jimjop

Hi, i haven't posted previous to this but have been reading intently. Thanks of course to XWB who is given some of us who are less in the know about this a good insight into the situation.

About the wages situation I have no idea and am not questioning what has been previously said but is this article completely wrong? it says wages of 60,000 were likely. I am aware this is way higher than what everyone is quoting but it seems to be wrote on the pretences of some sort of a interview or meeting with a representative hence the direct quotes. Is this completely wrong and made up?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/1000-apply-for-just-20-pilottraining-spots-with-aer-lingus-2847452.html

el tel

Going by XWB it sounds less like a cadet scheme and more like a pyramid scheme

But really its the only show in town. If you baulk at the conditions and costs remember that you would face virtually the same costs if you trained yourself. OK, a DE might get more money on commencing work but there is zero guarantee of getting a job at the end of training.

Anyone who has any sort of desire to fly should have applied just to get a bit of experience a taste of what interviews and assessments are like.

GoGoGadget

"The cost of the course will be advised to the successful applicants. In some cases, trainees have to pay for the full course. In others, companies pay the full amount but have a bond in place so where the pilot leaves, they have to pay some of the training costs back."

This is the part of the article in the Indo I don't get!

Some lads will pay for the full amount of training themselves and others have it all paid for by the company but are bonded.

Very curious to see how this will work out and how they decide who pays and who's bonded...

kona

GoGoGadget wrote: »

"The cost of the course will be advised to the successful applicants. In some cases, trainees have to pay for the full course. In others, companies pay the full amount but have a bond in place so where the pilot leaves, they have to pay some of the training costs back."

This is the part of the article in the Indo I don't get!

Some lads will pay for the full amount of training themselves and others have it all paid for by the company but are bonded.

Very curious to see how this will work out and how they decide who pays and who's bonded...

I think they are talking about the course in general and not exclusively the Aer Lingus Course. Some private people do fund it themselves and in the companies case (EI) they put their cadets in a bond.

GoGoGadget

Cheers Kona, makes sense now!

richgeezer

60k might be correct after you have unfrozen your ATPL.But there is no way a cadet after training is on 60k.Then you have to pay back training and type rating and if your sent to Belfast or Gatwick you have your living and travelling expenses there.

With FR 28k after tax might be right.But thats providing you get the 900 hours per year.FR keep a massive holding pool of pilots.
Dont forget that with FR you have all ready paid your 100k for your licence and then once that is done you have to pay 28k for your 737TR plus all the other admin costs and levys,and then you go into the holding pool.

EI and FR are not the only airlines to do this.They are all at it.Basically they are getting a fare for the RHS.
There is no shortage of pilots out there;There is a shortage of experienced pilots though.

Domestic carriers in the states have been doing these sorts of things for donkeys years also.Pilots are sent from pillar to post and some having to travel 12 hours just to pick up their flight.Paying for hotel/meals and all that.Most of these pilots in the US have to apply to the government for food vouchers.

:cool:

XWB

Railjon wrote: »

The Independant article on the cadetship stated that E60k was the starting salary for cadets, but not sure if this includes sector pay, bonds etc.

Some FOs on the 330 and Captains on the 320 dont earn 60k a year so I would be highly suspicious if that. I would imagine that was more of a hook on the line and that they were stating that "some day" you will earn 60k..maybe..possibly in 10 years.

Just to clarify, 28k in Ryanair is after tax. My mate is in there and has only just started. He earns 50E an hour and flys 900 hours year which equates to 45k a year before tax. Feel free to prove me wrong but quite a few people have told me that.

900 hours a year? That is very high for a Ryanair pilot. I would assume he would have to be a Capt as an FO in Ryanair would rarely get that sort of "hourage". Infact I know the base wage for a Ryanair Capt is 45k.
When you join Ryanair and have your safety pilot you earn 18k structure..when he pisses off you get the 28k structure. However as Brookfield employ you and you are a contractor you can claim to be self employed and claim tax relief on you phones bills, petrol, unifrom costs and infact you claim most of your TR costs back in the 1st 5 years!

SRiTURBO

I'm not 100% sure about his annual amount of hours but I'm 100% sure he gets 50E/HR. I've been told by one of my mates an SFO that FO's are doing well and most are getting 900 or so hours a year apart from in the big bases where they are still doing Fairly well. Also as far as I know captains are still on 80k a year before tax, 56k after tax.

handsomecake

XWB wrote: »

Railjon wrote: »

The Independant article on the cadetship stated that E60k was the starting salary for cadets, but not sure if this includes sector pay, bonds etc.

Some FOs on the 330 and Captains on the 320 dont earn 60k a year so I would be highly suspicious if that. I would imagine that was more of a hook on the line and that they were stating that "some day" you will earn 60k..maybe..possibly in 10 years.

Just to clarify, 28k in Ryanair is after tax. My mate is in there and has only just started. He earns 50E an hour and flys 900 hours year which equates to 45k a year before tax. Feel free to prove me wrong but quite a few people have told me that.

900 hours a year? That is very high for a Ryanair pilot. I would assume he would have to be a Capt as an FO in Ryanair would rarely get that sort of "hourage". Infact I know the base wage for a Ryanair Capt is 45k.
When you join Ryanair and have your safety pilot you earn 18k structure..when he pisses off you get the 28k structure. However as Brookfield employ you and you are a contractor you can claim to be self employed and claim tax relief on you phones bills, petrol, unifrom costs and infact you claim most of your TR costs back in the 1st 5 years!

What's the script ? I thought jockeys were minted? I wouldn't get out of bed for some of the figures being quoted

Contrarian

handsomecake wrote: »

What's the script ? I thought jockeys were minted? I wouldn't get out of bed for some of the figures being quoted

Agreed, with these kind of mickey mouse salaries I think I'll stick to Microsoft FSX!

jimjop

XWB wrote: »

Some FOs on the 330 and Captains on the 320 dont earn 60k a year so I would be highly suspicious if that. I would imagine that was more of a hook on the line and that they were stating that "some day" you will earn 60k..maybe..possibly in 10 years.

900 hours a year? That is very high for a Ryanair pilot. I would assume he would have to be a Capt as an FO in Ryanair would rarely get that sort of "hourage". Infact I know the base wage for a Ryanair Capt is 45k.
When you join Ryanair and have your safety pilot you earn 18k structure..when he pisses off you get the 28k structure. However as Brookfield employ you and you are a contractor you can claim to be self employed and claim tax relief on you phones bills, petrol, unifrom costs and infact you claim most of your TR costs back in the 1st 5 years!

It says starting salaries were likely to be 60,000?

to the rest of posts:

and was a pilots salary not known to be a very good one? and here the total opposite is being said..I respect XWBs opinion but I wonder is all the other views on this trying to maybe scare people who have been invited to stage 3 to decline their places due to wage fears so unsuccessful applicants will maybe get another chance. Ill have training and salary questions armed and ready for the next stage because until then i've the salt shaker out reading the majority of these posts

kona

jimjop wrote: »

It says starting salaries were likely to be 60,000?

to the rest of posts:

and was a pilots salary not known to be a very good one? and here the total opposite is being said..I respect XWBs opinion but I wonder is all the other views on this trying to maybe scare people who have been invited to stage 3 to decline their places due to wage fears so unsuccessful applicants will maybe get another chance. Ill have training and salary questions armed and ready for the next stage because until then i've the salt shaker out reading the majority of these posts

Do you honestly think that pilots get paid e60K starting as a cadet! As long as people expect flights for less than the taxi fare to the airport your having a laugh. Its not near what people think it is as a job.

richgeezer

I know lads that have gone down the Pilot avenue for the wrong reasons.Thinking they are going to be minted and all that.

How it ruined their lives.

You have to have A1 fuel running through your veins and be best friends with a euromillions winner.

Even as DE into FR be prepared to moved to any base at any time at your own expense, and on Monday when FR tell you" congratulations you are now a FR Captain " Tuesday morning you are now based in Trapani.

After 10+ years of pillar to post you might be lucky to have somewhere to call home and be earning 60k

XWB

jimjop wrote: »

It says starting salaries were likely to be 60,000?

to the rest of posts:

and was a pilots salary not known to be a very good one? and here the total opposite is being said..I respect XWBs opinion but I wonder is all the other views on this trying to maybe scare people who have been invited to stage 3 to decline their places due to wage fears so unsuccessful applicants will maybe get another chance. Ill have training and salary questions armed and ready for the next stage because until then i've the salt shaker out reading the majority of these posts

Look I was offered a 2 year return contract with a base salary of 70k a year to skipper the pond hoppers....if I was doing that job and then found out cadets were earning 60k then I would be demanding a pay rise. To suggest 60k a year is to suggest that the cadet will walk in day one on the 320 and be earning more than the man to his left in Gatwick??...that is just a farcical suggestion! Cadets will make 30k if they are lucky!

jimjop

I just find it hard to believe that wages are so low although Im not in a position to educatedly comment either. more of hear say i suppose.

so will 30 be what's left after you pay what ever amount you owe for your training(but before tax) or will tax and training be deducted from that 30?

richgeezer

jimjop wrote: »

It says starting salaries were likely to be 60,000?

to the rest of posts:

and was a pilots salary not known to be a very good one? and here the total opposite is being said..I respect XWBs opinion but I wonder is all the other views on this trying to maybe scare people who have been invited to stage 3 to decline their places due to wage fears so unsuccessful applicants will maybe get another chance. Ill have training and salary questions armed and ready for the next stage because until then i've the salt shaker out reading the majority of these posts

You have your answers in your post JIMJOP.

"""and was a pilots salary not known to be a very good one?"""

Yes IT was. Thats if you started flying in the 80s or 90s and you have huge hours and left hand seat.
In these eras the flag carriers where held together by the tax payer. Aviation is a cut throat business across the globe.

Ask XWB his finishing salary.Id say about 180k+ perks p/a.
Why do you think they where all told to bugger off with a wad?

kiwster

XWB wrote: »

Look I was offered a 2 year return contract with a base salary of 70k a year to skipper the pond hoppers....if I was doing that job and then found out cadets were earning 60k then I would be demanding a pay rise. To suggest 60k a year is to suggest that the cadet will walk in day one on the 320 and be earning more than the man to his left in Gatwick??...that is just a farcical suggestion! Cadets will make 30k if they are lucky!

I really can't see how it could be any more than this. For someone in their 20s who has either just finished college or didn't go to college at all then this is a great starting salary. I started on 29k when I finished college a few years ago after 5 years in college. Plus my employer didn't pay a penny toward my tuition. I'm struggling to see how EI would pay any more than that especially after funding some of the cadetship.

For a school/college graduate this is great but for someone changing career after a few years it could be at least a 50% pay cut. It would be that for me at least

thecornflake

kona wrote: »

Do you honestly think that pilots get paid e60K starting as a cadet! As long as people expect flights for less than the taxi fare to the airport your having a laugh. Its not near what people think it is as a job.

People seem to think if they get the position that it'll be like Leonardo decaprio in Catch me If You Can :rolleyes:.

kona

thecornflake wrote: »

People seem to think if they get the position that it'll be like Leonardo decaprio in Catch me If You Can :rolleyes:.

More like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE

Tightwad

el tel wrote: »

G
Anyone who has any sort of desire to fly should have applied just to get a bit of experience a taste of what interviews and assessments are like.

YES! Sound advice.

kiwster wrote: »

I really can't see how it could be any more than this.

For a school/college graduate this is great but for someone changing career after a few years it could be at least a 50% pay cut. It would be that for me at least

I couldn’t agree more I think it’s all relative to age and background. I am used to living on little and I am not in this to make a quick wad. To expect big bucks as a fresh cadet would be folly. I see this as a long-term career where returns on investment are made way into the future but more importantly at the same time as pursuing a career that i find fulfilling. Hard times are a head, no doubt about it. This all said, I am 22, ten years will come round quicker than i think and up to 60k (if am lucky) at the age of 32 sounds spot on with time to improve as well.

I appreciate the dilemma for people who may have found that desire to fly etc but have a family to look after and are already on a superior wage.

It will be great to find out some solid facts at S3.

MoeJay

XWB wrote: »

Some FOs on the 330 and Captains on the 320 dont earn 60k a year so I would be highly suspicious if that. I would imagine that was more of a hook on the line and that they were stating that "some day" you will earn 60k..maybe..possibly in 10 years.

Sorry XWB I call BS on this, which really calls into question the rest of your posts.

There is no FO on the 330 nor Captain on the 320 on less than €60k gross.

A number of FOs on the 320 certainly are, certainly in BFS/LGW but the tax situation is different there, so I've no idea what the take home pay is. If you want to talk about net salary, you should specify as your post is highly misleading.

This only reinforces the point that any prospective candidate should seek the relevant information from your prospective employer, should you get the chance to ask!

kiwster

Has anyone emailed or called the number provided on the last email for any sort of info on the programme? I sent them an email a few days ago and haven't received a reply yet.

searescue

It's ridiculous the amount of grief people are throwing at XWB - he's an ex A320/330 captain with sound advice. If you were to go elsewhere you could pay nice money for this advice!

I feel that people are expressing their anger, rather than disagreeing with XWB - the glamour days of being an airline pilot and getting rich are gone - if you love flying you'll get there some way or another - if you're looking to become rich, I would suggest going elsewhere.

searescue

kiwster wrote: »

Has anyone emailed or called the number provided on the last email for any sort of info on the programme? I sent them an email a few days ago and haven't received a reply yet.

The number is Galway based - company called Cut-E, it's not AL in Dublin you'll get through to.

XWB

MoeJay wrote: »

Sorry XWB I call BS on this, which really calls into question the rest of your posts.

There is no FO on the 330 nor Captain on the 320 on less than €60k gross.

My son in law was an SFO promoted to Captain to fill the void I and my friends left when we departed. He was offered 58k as a base wage in Dublin. New Captains earn at most 60k but ones who were Captains before the austerity have already taken a cut and earn around 70-100k depending on what fleet they are in. It is a situation that is "heated" to say the least

If cadets came in on 60k IALPA would be busy with complaints and there would be BITTER industrial action from SFOs and "junior" Captains.

I would not like to state my final wage on a public forum but if you really want to know PM me...

Tightwad

kiwster wrote: »

Has anyone emailed or called the number provided on the last email for any sort of info on the programme? I sent them an email a few days ago and haven't received a reply yet.

It looks like they only want you to contact them if A) you have a problem parking or any other difficulties like that and

if you are not going to turn up.

IMO I think they have told us everything they want us to know for the time being in the e-mail. All the big unknown questions are likely to be cleared up in one go at stage 3 or even 4 but i cant see them entertaining all the different questions coming from us potential candidates via e-mail. Could be worth the try.

MoeJay

Well XWB, feel free to visit me in the flight deck the next time you see me on the line and we can figure it all out then! I'll bring the Blue Book.