M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The proposed GCOB route ends much further out along the coast the R336. You posted a link to Upper Salthill. Why?

Because, if you follow the road on the map, you'll see that that is the end of the route of the existing "Ring road". You wanted to see where on the R336 the ring road ended and now you're going off on a tangent when shown it.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Your "nowhere near" semantics are risible. It was clear that the discussion of the locations was geographic, until you suddenly switched to a time reference, post hoc.

There was nothing to indicate, suggest or require that the discussion refer to geographic particularly as we were talking about traffic at the time. Traffic conditions do not depend on crow flies distances like you appear to be doing.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And no, I ain't getting desperate. Please refrain from these ad hominem arguments.

Clearly you are.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Pedantry: context, dear boy, context. You have repeatedly engaged in ad hominem argument, attempting to suggest that I have no knowledge of Galway City and by implication that I do not have valid opinions on the GCOB. You then refer to the Quincentenary Bridge as the Quincentennial. Of course any person who really knows Galway would know that, so obviously you're blah blah etc.

Using the more commonly used name locally shows a lack of local knowledge HOW exactly? Ridiculously poor attempt at points scoring, again.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you arguing from a purely technical or engineering perspective here, rather than a political one?

Technical. The politician is the one claiming it for a political purpose, clearly, and he is the one you've quoted more than once to try and defend your position...

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Fair enough, the proposed road may be needed and specced as a bypass, and there may be an excellent business case for why it will be of economic benefit to the West, but I assure you that locally it is being widely touted as something like a relief road!

Political, again. The main touter was let go by those he was touting to which suggests that the people aren't that stupid and actually know what its purpose is.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

and their TD/Councillor friends are insisting that it's needed to make the (traffic generating) Harbour/Ceannt Station redevelopment possible, and the speculators are (or were, and will be again) salivating about the prospects for rezonings along the route.

Councils live on development levys (and motor tax). When we have property taxation this can be fixed, hopefully, once and for all

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What I have been trying to say all along is not that a bypass per se is an intrinsically bad idea. Rather, it is a major piece of infrastructure that has been identified as of strategic importance, but which may well be abused or simply function sub-optimally because of ... overuse, perhaps?

You do know what the capacity of a motorway grade dual carriageway is, right? Overuse is not something for the next 40 years.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I don't want the GCOB to become a means of filling up the city again with traffic-generating commercial and residential development. Neither do I want it to facilitate more sporadic and uncoordinated development in rural areas. I genuinely believe that the GCOB carries to the potential to do both. Local GCOB proponents agree with this view; it's just that they don't see it as a bad thing.

Address that through the planning system then, rather than delaying a bypass which is costing the economy millions and indeed costing lives (there have been numerous deaths on the Quincen[ ] bridge over the years)

Iwannahurl wrote: »

3. The alleged benefits of GCOB-related traffic reduction. This is an example, IMO, of where the sales rhetoric of GCOB proponents may not match reality. Galwaycyclist already explained this perspective, based on years of experience and not on assumptions.

That is someone else who is talking out of both sides of their mouth.

You cannot be for potentially reducing traffic by means of modal shift and yet against potentially reducing traffic by means of a bypass without being a complete and utter hypocrite. You didn't address this I see.

MYOB wrote: »

No, I'm saying that the "ring road" ends AT the R336 not that the R336 was any part of it. Which you'd know if you were doing something other than relying on maps, which its clear you are from thinking I was referring to the Tuam Road...

The GCOB as planned will also end at the R336, again, you'd know this if you knew what it was you were arguing against.

And that for a driver, when you're at the end of Bothar na dTreabh, you're a massive driving time from the Quin bridge. Seeing as Galway is quite small, this is a perfectly valid definition of "nowhere near"

Getting desperate now are you IWH?

The proposed GCOB route ends much further out along the coast the R336. You posted a link to Upper Salthill. Why?

Your "nowhere near" semantics are risible. It was clear that the discussion of the locations was geographic, until you suddenly switched to a time reference, post hoc.

And no, I ain't getting desperate. Please refrain from these ad hominem arguments.

MYOB wrote: »

And you attack people for pedantry...

The GCOB won't take *any* traffic out of the harbour area as it does not serve traffic going anywhere near it. This is blatantly clear to anyone who's actually been in Galway for more than a weekend.

Bring in your beloved enforcement then. Its not even a fraction of a valid argument against the bypass.

And if removing traffic would make the city streets more dangerous for cyclists why are you for, erm, removing traffic by means of public transport to make it more condusive to cyclists? Talking out of both sides of your mouth. Can't have it both ways.

Will removing traffic make it safer or more dangerous? Pick a viewpoint and stop trying to represent both.

1. Pedantry: context, dear boy, context. You have repeatedly engaged in ad hominem argument, attempting to suggest that I have no knowledge of Galway City and by implication that I do not have valid opinions on the GCOB. You then refer to the Quincentenary Bridge as the Quincentennial. Of course any person who really knows Galway would know that, so obviously you're blah blah etc.

2. We appear to be talking at cross purposes regarding the purpose and likely effects of the GCOB. "The GCOB won't take *any* traffic out of the harbour area as it does not serve traffic going anywhere near it." You have made the point more than once before that its function is as a bypass pure and simple:

MYOB wrote: »

Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.

Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

Are you arguing from a purely technical or engineering perspective here, rather than a political one?

Fair enough, the proposed road may be needed and specced as a bypass, and there may be an excellent business case for why it will be of economic benefit to the West, but I assure you that locally it is being widely touted as something like a relief road!

The good burghers of Knocknacarra are being promised that they will be able to reach Carnmore Airport in fifteen minutes, the One-Off Brigade want to drive from Boleybeg to Ballsbridge in two-and-a-half hours, the frustrated car commuters just want it so they can avoid bottlenecks like the Bodkin Roundabout, the GTU claim it's an essential element of a citywide transportation strategy, the developers and their TD/Councillor friends are insisting that it's needed to make the (traffic generating) Harbour/Ceannt Station redevelopment possible, and the speculators are (or were, and will be again) salivating about the prospects for rezonings along the route.

What I have been trying to say all along is not that a bypass per se is an intrinsically bad idea. Rather, it is a major piece of infrastructure that has been identified as of strategic importance, but which may well be abused or simply function sub-optimally because of ... overuse, perhaps?

It appears that you have a clear idea of what the GCOB is intended to do. My position is that there is a strong likelihood that it will be used for other purposes. I don't want the GCOB to become a means of filling up the city again with traffic-generating commercial and residential development. Neither do I want it to facilitate more sporadic and uncoordinated development in rural areas. I genuinely believe that the GCOB carries to the potential to do both. Local GCOB proponents agree with this view; it's just that they don't see it as a bad thing.

3. The alleged benefits of GCOB-related traffic reduction. This is an example, IMO, of where the sales rhetoric of GCOB proponents may not match reality. Galwaycyclist already explained this perspective, based on years of experience and not on assumptions.

citycentre

Iwannahurl, I'd suggest you stop digging as you are showing up how little you know about the road network in Galway. None of the points that you have quoted from MYOB need any explanation or are in any way inaccurate. Your glib, pedantic and nonsensical pointscoring shows clearly that you will cling to your own narrow agenda at the expense of any other opinion or viewpoint.

Galway needs the outer bypass. It also needs a proper public transport system, a decent cycling network and increased pedestrianization of the city centre. There will be no modal shift to public transport or cycling until the road network allows these modes to actually work properly. The outer bypass is clearly -nay ridiculously - obviously part of the overall solution, not something that will add to the problems.

No matter what the cycling evangelists say, the general populace will not be shifting en mass to their bikes. I say this as someone who doesn't even own a car, who cycles everywhere but also as someone in the architecture and planning field who is extremely familiar with the road layouts, demographics and transport "culture" we are dealing with.

I honestly think that anyone arguing against the provision of the outer bypass is delusional. As a result I wasn't remotely surprised to hear that Cllr. C. Connolly was arguing strenuously against it at the recent council meeting about the recent traffic problems. Glad to hear that its provision is near top of the list in terms of priorities despite the pathetic, timewasting legalistic roadblocks that have been thrown up against it.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This is getting surreal!

Having claimed "insight" into my alleged lack of knowledge of Galway City, having made the clearly inaccurate statement that "the road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge", and having attempted to wriggle out of that last gaffe by claiming that since it takes as much as "fifteen minutes drive in rush hour" it is therefore "nowhere near in terms of traffic" (hilarious!) you now appear to be saying, as your last link above suggests, that the rather ancient and venerable Salthill Road up past the diving tower at Blackrock is somehow part of a "ring road" deemed "unsalvageable" by the NRA?! I don't geddit...

No, I'm saying that the "ring road" ends AT the R336 not that the R336 was any part of it. Which you'd know if you were doing something other than relying on maps, which its clear you are from thinking I was referring to the Tuam Road...

The GCOB as planned will also end at the R336, again, you'd know this if you knew what it was you were arguing against.

And that for a driver, when you're at the end of Bothar na dTreabh, you're a massive driving time from the Quin bridge. Seeing as Galway is quite small, this is a perfectly valid definition of "nowhere near"

Getting desperate now are you IWH?

MYOB wrote: »

"Bother na dTreabh" is the DC/part of the S4 section (N18 to N84) of the existing route only, IWH. Its about half of the entire ring road, nothing more.

The NRA and indeed everyone except you it appears recognise the rest (N84 to R336) is unsalvagable. This includes the Corrib crossing which is the entire need for the outer bypass!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

N84 to R336? Sorry, I find that a bit confusing. According to the Google map I'm looking at, the N84 is the Headford Road and the R336, in the relevant part of the city, is called the Tuam Road locally (closer to town, well before it becomes the N17).

MYOB wrote: »

The R336 at the locaiton I'm referring to is the road to Connemara. If you know the 'ring road' you'll know exactly what I mean. More insight that you don't actually know Galway at all.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Link to the R336 location on Google Maps please.

MYOB wrote: »

Would be seen as the very end of what is the current patched together "ring road", albeit more traffic would use the Kingston Road to access the R336 from it.

This is getting surreal!

Having claimed "insight" into my alleged lack of knowledge of Galway City, having made the clearly inaccurate statement that "the road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge", and having attempted to wriggle out of that last gaffe by claiming that since it takes as much as "fifteen minutes drive in rush hour" it is therefore "nowhere near in terms of traffic" (hilarious!) you now appear to be saying, as your last link above suggests, that the rather ancient and venerable Salthill Road up past the diving tower at Blackrock is somehow part of a "ring road" deemed "unsalvageable" by the NRA?! I don't geddit...

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/43700/city-outer-bypass-to-be-included-in-new-national-development-plan

The Galway City Outer Bypass will form part of the new National Development Plan, the contents of which are due to be revealed in October, it was confirmed last night.

Several major roads projects are expected to be omitted from the new capital expenditure programme as the department seeks to scale back its plans in line with the present economic circumstances. However, Galway West TD Brian Walsh received confirmation from the Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar last night that he is prepared to include the Galway City Outer Bypass as a priority in the new programme.

It is understood that the proposed outer bypass was one of the highest-ranking roads project in the State in terms of cost-benefit analysis conducted by the Department of Transport in relation to every proposed roads currently under consideration by the Government.

Welcoming the commitment from Minister Varadkar, Dep Walsh said the inclusion of the bypass in the new National Development Plan would “pave the way” for the project to be expedited pending a decision from the European Court of Justice, following a referral from the Supreme Court for a preliminary ruling on matters concerning EU Law.

“I recently wrote to the Minister seeking reaffirmation that the bypass was still a priority for the Government in spite of the fiscal constraints and I am delighted with his response,” he said.

“The chaotic traffic congestion of recent weeks has served to highlight that the need for an outer bypass has never been greater and the inclusion of the project in the new plan signals that the Government remains committed to making it a reality.”

Dep Walsh said the reason the bypass has been in the pipeline for more than 14 years is due to a lack of “political will to bring it to fruition”.

“The bypass is not only critical from the point of view of alleviating traffic congestion but it is also integral to facilitating the redevelopment of Galway Harbour,” he said, “because access is going to be a major consideration in deciding whether planning is granted in respect of that project

https://www.pobal.ie/WhatWeDo/Deprivation/Publications/1.1.26%20Area%20Profile%20-%20Galway%20City%20report.pdf

KevR wrote: »

Can anyone put a percentage figure on the expansion of Galway City's road network 1991-2006??

In that timeframe there were 2 roads built that I can think of: the Western Distributer Road through Knocknacara & the Ballybrit & Doughiska dual carriageways (I'm ignoring the Doughiska to Oranmore because it's not in the city, the digital roundabout at Ballybane was opened before '91 IIRC). That's maybe 7km of roads.

Edit: possibly Bothar Ui Hehir (Tuam Rd to College Rd/Foster St) as well

Meanwhile we've lost O'Briens Bridge to Westbound traffic due to the pedestrianization of Shop St.

KevR

Iwannahurl wrote: »

EDIT: A thought occurs. If planning for a bypass started in 1999, fifteen years after the new bridge opened, may this is an indicator that the "ring road" had already been swallowed up with traffic generating development and that they already knew what they were doing "planning" wise was not going to be salvageable.

Can anyone put a percentage figure on the expansion of Galway City's road network 1991-2006??

I think we can safely assume that it hasn't expanded by 42.4% !!!!!!!

There is no denying that there have been some very bad planning decisions in Galway City and County over the years but the fact still remains that population growth in Galway City (and County) has been huge and that increases in road capacity have been shockingly low in comparison.

Population (1991-2006)
• Ireland has experienced a population growth of 20.3% over the past fifteen years and the West Region has grown by 20.8%. Galway City’s population, by contrast, has grown by 42.4% over the same period, the forth largest growth experienced overall and the fastest growth experience of any county outside the Greater Dublin Area.

• The fastest growing EDs within Galway City are Barna (187.3%), Ballybaan (133.4%), Ballybrit (125.5%), Eyre Square (111.2%) and Castlegar (107.8%), all of which more than doubled their population.

• Only few areas registered a population decline, including Newcastle (-35.2%), Renmore (-27.5%), Mervue (-26.4%), Lough Atalia (-17.7%) and Nuns Island (-14.6%).

Iwannahurl wrote: »

James Nix paper attached.

Attachment not found.

Thanks for the doc, I'll consider both posts properly after work and get back to you.

Without having read the document, there's one item that I never hear mentioned when people mention one off housing in Co. Galway, it's an area with historically low urban populations, so it's not like the concept is a new one. But please don't trust me on that, check the census figures.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

EDIT: A thought occurs. If planning for a bypass started in 1999, fifteen years after the new bridge opened, may this is an indicator that the "ring road" had already been swallowed up with traffic generating development and that they already knew what they were doing "planning" wise was not going to be salvageable.

I never remember it being referred to as a "ring road" until they pedestrianized Shop Street (approx 1999/2000), creating the "inner ring" and "outer ring" roads and only then on road signs (are those road signs still up, not on Eyre Sq any more at any rate).

At any rate I object to the use of "ring road" as the name implies that it is an outer route. This road goes within a few minutes walk of Eyre Square. Also, with the exception of the last section between Briarhill & Doughiska, the so called "Galway Ring Road" passes through business & residential areas that existed before the road was built.

Now, if you would, consider that the dual carriageway between Briarhill and Doughiska was opened in 95/96 to complete this relief road. They started planning for the bypass in 1999 based on the NRA's road needs survey (where the concept of the national dc/motorway network came from). To me that's an attempt at forward planning to rectify problems that have not been fully resolved by the measures taken. No doubt you'll disagree on most if not all of this.

You keep saying things like "if planning for a bypass started in 1999" - it did, I'm not the only person in Galway whose family had the brochure with the proposed routes posted out to our house in the early part of the last decade.

Here's another item for you to consider, taken from Retail Strategy for Galway City published in 2002:

Galway City has a County -wide catchment area in particular for comparison shopping. This dominant position of Galway is confirmed and the dependence of towns even as far away as Clifden on the services provided in Galway is indicated. This is clear also from the results of the floorspace survey (section 3).

The county towns predominantly function as providers of day to day shopping
requirements. Shoppers to these towns come from the immediate catchment with the exception of Loughrea, which appears to have a marginally wider catchment coming from the South- East of the county.

Traffic congestion and poor car parking facilities were identified as a problem everywhere but in particular in Loughrea and Athenry. This has a strong negative impact in County towns especially where most shoppers are car borne.

Would be seen as the very end of what is the current patched together "ring road", albeit more traffic would use the Kingston Road to access the R336 from it.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Link to the R336 location on Google Maps please.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

2. Your insight is unreliable.

Clearly not.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

3. It's the Quincentenary Bridge, officially.

And you attack people for pedantry...

Iwannahurl wrote: »

4. "The road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge." Really? According to Google Maps, approx 750 metres from the Pillo Hotel at the roundabout opposite the Menlo Park Hotel (beginning of Bothar na dTreabh) to the Galway Shopping Centre (at the magic roundabout just before Quincentenary Bridge).

...which can be fifteen minutes drive in rush hour... its nowhere near in terms of traffic.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

5. I have already posted a link to a newspaper article in which a Galway TD emphatically states that the GCOB is also needed to take traffic out of the city in order to facilitate new development in the harbour area. The Ceannt Station element of that plan on its own includes 2055 car parking spaces. How will that not induce traffic?

The GCOB won't take *any* traffic out of the harbour area as it does not serve traffic going anywhere near it. This is blatantly clear to anyone who's actually been in Galway for more than a weekend.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

6. Road safety campaigning and GCOB scepticism are not mutually exclusive. As someone else has argued in this thread, I think, removing traffic with a bypass could make the city streets more dangerous for vulnerable road users if it led to higher free speeds on average.

Bring in your beloved enforcement then. Its not even a fraction of a valid argument against the bypass.

And if removing traffic would make the city streets more dangerous for cyclists why are you for, erm, removing traffic by means of public transport to make it more condusive to cyclists? Talking out of both sides of your mouth. Can't have it both ways.

Will removing traffic make it safer or more dangerous? Pick a viewpoint and stop trying to represent both.

MYOB wrote: »

The R336 at the locaiton I'm referring to is the road to Connemara. If you know the 'ring road' you'll know exactly what I mean. More insight that you don't actually know Galway at all.

The road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge.

Seeing as its nowhere near the city and hence not going to induce traffic in it, never.

What is your purpose in arguing against this? You came on here as some form of road safety campaigner and now you're arguing against a road which will make travelling safer for thousands daily.

1. Link to the R336 location on Google Maps please.

2. Your insight is unreliable.

3. It's the Quincentenary Bridge, officially.

4. "The road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge." Really? According to Google Maps, approx 750 metres from the Pillo Hotel at the roundabout opposite the Menlo Park Hotel (beginning of Bothar na dTreabh) to the Galway Shopping Centre (at the magic roundabout just before Quincentenary Bridge).

5. I have already posted a link to a newspaper article in which a Galway TD emphatically states that the GCOB is also needed to take traffic out of the city in order to facilitate new development in the harbour area. The Ceannt Station element of that plan on its own includes 2055 car parking spaces. How will that not induce traffic?

6. Road safety campaigning and GCOB scepticism are not mutually exclusive. As someone else has argued in this thread, I think, removing traffic with a bypass could make the city streets more dangerous for vulnerable road users if it led to higher free speeds on average.

kiwipower wrote: »

I still see lots of arguments from you.
But as I asked in an earlier post, what are your proposed solutions to Galways' traffic problems? Solutions that support ALL members of the community? Not just those that are fully mobile, live in a bus shelter, on their cycles, in Galway City and don't have to travel more than 4km?

I hadn't forgotten.

The "Smarter Travel" plan, for a start.

Personally I'd love to see congestion charging in the longer term. If feasible that could be used to fund more PT and P&R, I would imagine.

Removal of on-street parking on some city routes, along with a rigorous parking management strategy that includes 'performance pricing' to reduce parking-related congestion and put money back into making the city more conducive for shopping etc. Also a 'parking route' like they have in some European cities where cars are routed away from a central zone and there is sufficient parking on the route where people can leave their cars.

Overhaul of the school transport system to make it much more user-friendly for city dwellers.

30 kph zone in the city.

A larger car-free zone in the city.

Opening up of one-way streets to bicycles.

They're just some ideas off the top of my head, in no particular order. The overall priority, as I would see it, is to first deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car. Having offered a large bunch of sweet carrots, then wield the economic stick. Or maybe you need to do both simultaneously.

For the record, I do not support ANY members of the community who merely "like" using their car in the city, as per Galway Chamber of Commerce. Any traffic and transportation plan for Galway City must prioritise sustainability and the greater good, not the mere desires of car owners.

antoobrien wrote: »

Consider the fact that PT along the n17/18 is piss poor, non existant west of the Corrib and it would seem that there is no bus route serving the N63 either. Galway county has a population of 250,000 - 2/3 of which does not live in the Galway smarter travel area (I refuse to refer to it as the metropolitan area like they do in the document). Consider the fact that at least half the population lives in towns & villages (take a look at the 2006 census).

Please fix the link.

Also since you seem to be able to find such trivia, would you care to find the number of one offs in counties Louth, Carlow, Dublin, Longford & Letrim for the same timeframe. When you combine these 5 counties their combined (6,620 sq km) area is 471 sq km greater than county Galway (6,149 sq km), so I'd expect to see only 1,200 one offs.

Remember one thing, when the bypass planning started in 1999, they were working off the 1996 cencus figures which put the total population of Co Galway at 188,854 (57,241 + 133,613). It's now 250,541 (75,414 + 175,127).

Now consider the population of the commuter areas in that map has increased, while local employment has fallen and they're having to travel to Galway.

GCOB has about as much to do with one off housing as the M50 or Athlone DC have.

I don't trust google maps for placenames - the Monivea Rd is labeled Ballybrit until Carnmore cross, when Ballybrit ends at Ballybrit Rd (often referred to as Parkmore Rd).

The confusion here is caused by the re-designation of the Quincentenary Bridge to the N6 (not sure when it happened). I believe BNT was originally the name for the section between the Headford Road (N84) and the Monivea rd @ Ballybane (R339), I'm not aware of a seperate name for the stretch between the Tuam Rd and Ballybane. Ah well, I'll just have to buy a map at the weekend.

James Nix paper attached.

Attachment not found.

I wouldn't argue that Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann have no room for improvement.

There is no disputing that we have what one Boards member euphemistically and with unintended humour described as a "distributed society".

Is there sufficient population in these areas to make public transport viable? In some cases I very much doubt that, and in others BE may be at fault or may not have the resources.

Do you disagree with Nix's analysis that, for example, rural school transport costs on average five times more than in urban areas?

Galway's traffic congestion has an awful lot to do with sporadic and uncoordinated development in rural areas, and that congestion is routinely used as an argument for the GCOB. Galway City and County Councils have officially been of that view for years (eg as in the GTPS published in 2002) though you wouldn't think that with the way their "planners" behave.

You will notice that the GCOB route includes a link to the Western Distributor Road.

Do you think the current residents of that side of Galway, some in Knocknatallaght and many other in "one-off" houses built in bogs and up cart tracks aren't delighted at the thought of a bypass on their doorstep?

Do you think that there isn't latent demand for building more rustic haciendas that will be unleashed by a bypass?

Do you think that good old Irish gombeenism and the GCOB won't ever find common (boggy) ground?

Why do you suppose Frank "Forty Gaffs" Fahey was putting up illegal signs touting the bypass in that part of the constituency a while back? By the way, his pro-GCOB stunt, http://www.isupportthebypass.com, seems to have bitten the dust along with his seat. Aw shucks.

EDIT: A thought occurs. If planning for a bypass started in 1999, fifteen years after the new bridge opened, may this is an indicator that the "ring road" had already been swallowed up with traffic generating development and that they already knew what they were doing "planning" wise was not going to be salvageable.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

N84 to R336? Sorry, I find that a bit confusing. According to the Google map I'm looking at, the N84 is the Headford Road and the R336, in the relevant part of the city, is called the Tuam Road locally (closer to town, well before it becomes the N17).

Is the Quincentenary Bridge not the N6, which is also Bothar na dTreabh?

The R336 at the locaiton I'm referring to is the road to Connemara. If you know the 'ring road' you'll know exactly what I mean. More insight that you don't actually know Galway at all.

The road named Bothar na dTreabh gets nowhere near the Quincentennial Bridge.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How long will it take for GCOB-related induced traffic to become unsalvageable, I wonder?

Seeing as its nowhere near the city and hence not going to induce traffic in it, never.

What is your purpose in arguing against this? You came on here as some form of road safety campaigner and now you're arguing against a road which will make travelling safer for thousands daily.

kiwipower

I still see lots of arguments from you.
But as I asked in an earlier post, what are your proposed solutions to Galways' traffic problems? Solutions that support ALL members of the community? Not just those that are fully mobile, live in a bus shelter, on their cycles, in Galway City and don't have to travel more than 4km?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you serious? Really really serious? You post a link to this map and then you lay the blame for the non-provision of public transport with Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann? And then you go on to suggest that MY head is in the sand!!! Laugh? I nearly dropped my little netbook...

Consider the fact that PT along the n17/18 is piss poor, non existant west of the Corrib and it would seem that there is no bus route serving the N63 either. Galway county has a population of 250,000 - 2/3 of which does not live in the Galway smarter travel area (I refuse to refer to it as the metropolitan area like they do in the document). Consider the fact that at least half the population lives in towns & villages (take a look at the 2006 census).

Iwannahurl wrote: »

(Source: paper by James Nix on the Irish Planning Institute website)

Please fix the link.

Also since you seem to be able to find such trivia, would you care to find the number of one offs in counties Louth, Carlow, Dublin, Longford & Letrim for the same timeframe. When you combine these 5 counties their combined (6,620 sq km) area is 471 sq km greater than county Galway (6,149 sq km), so I'd expect to see only 1,200 one offs.

Remember one thing, when the bypass planning started in 1999, they were working off the 1996 cencus figures which put the total population of Co Galway at 188,854 (57,241 + 133,613). It's now 250,541 (75,414 + 175,127).

Now consider the population of the commuter areas in that map has increased, while local employment has fallen and they're having to travel to Galway.

GCOB has about as much to do with one off housing as the M50 or Athlone DC have.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

N84 to R336? Sorry, I find that a bit confusing. According to the Google map I'm looking at, the N84 is the Headford Road and the R336, in the relevant part of the city, is called the Tuam Road locally (closer to town, well before it becomes the N17).

Is the Quincentenary Bridge not the N6, which is also Bothar na dTreabh?

Anyway, perhaps my confusion is due to Google Maps mis-labelling.

I don't trust google maps for placenames - the Monivea Rd is labeled Ballybrit until Carnmore cross, when Ballybrit ends at Ballybrit Rd (often referred to as Parkmore Rd).

The confusion here is caused by the re-designation of the Quincentenary Bridge to the N6 (not sure when it happened). I believe BNT was originally the name for the section between the Headford Road (N84) and the Monivea rd @ Ballybane (R339), I'm not aware of a seperate name for the stretch between the Tuam Rd and Ballybane. Ah well, I'll just have to buy a map at the weekend.

MYOB wrote: »

"Bother na dTreabh" is the DC/part of the S4 section (N18 to N84) of the existing route only, IWH. Its about half of the entire ring road, nothing more.

The NRA and indeed everyone except you it appears recognise the rest (N84 to R336) is unsalvagable. This includes the Corrib crossing which is the entire need for the outer bypass!

N84 to R336? Sorry, I find that a bit confusing. According to the Google map I'm looking at, the N84 is the Headford Road and the R336, in the relevant part of the city, is called the Tuam Road locally (closer to town, well before it becomes the N17).

Is the Quincentenary Bridge not the N6, which is also Bothar na dTreabh?

Anyway, perhaps my confusion is due to Google Maps mis-labelling.

The key word in your post above, IMO, is unsalvageable. In the absence of a GCOB this is recognised and that is why the immediate focus is on traffic management.

This is a good thing, IMO, because it forces Galway City, at last, to look seriously at transportation policies other than facilitating motorised traffic.

The N6 upgrade (removal of roundabouts etc) is intended to improve motorised traffic flow, but it is also linked to measures aimed at facilitating bus users, cyclists and pedestrians.

But the word unsalvageable refers back to my original point: the Bypass should not be about temporarily rescuing us from policies and practices that led to massive car dependence and traffic congestion in the first place.

If Galway City were granted a bypass without any serious and enforceable measures to ensure that it is not used to facilitate more developer-led "planning" that will generate yet more car traffic, then it will eventually become unsalvageable too. We can't go on building more and more roads that just give rise to more and more car-dependent and traffic-generating development. It is simply not sustainable.

Those who regard the GCOB as essential infrastructure, a car driver's dream or a developer's gold-mine may take heart from the headline in the latest issue of the Galway Advertiser: "City outer bypass to be included in new national development plan".

So far so good for the GCOB proponents, though they will still have to wait a while for a decision from the European Court of Justice, before the matter possibly goes back to the Supreme Court in Ireland.

So, we have some GCOB proponents arguing that "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass" and others arguing that its purpose is to remove traffic from the city centre so that public transport, cycling and walking may prosper.

And then there are the sceptics, of which I'm one, who are disgusted by what passes for "planning" in this country and who are concerned about the influence of 'developers' behind projects touted as essential infrastructure.

I have already argued that one of the main drivers for the bypass in Galway is the fact that current levels of traffic congestion are holding up new developments such as the Ceannt Station/Galway Harbour plans, which if they come to fruition will make many millions for a small but powerful elite.

The Ceannt Station proposal includes 2055 car parking spaces, 75% of them for commercial and residential use smack bang in the city centre. Bumper to bumper that number of cars would stretch from Eyre Square to Clarenbridge. Of course a Bypass is needed to facilitate such developer-led "planning"!

Am I wrong? No, because if I was, new FG TD Brian Walsh, no slouch when it comes to lucrative property development, wouldn't be agreeing with me in today's Galway Advertiser:

"The bypass is not only critical from the point of view of alleviating traffic congestion but it is also integral to facilitating the redevelopment of Galway Harbour, because access is going to be a major consideration in deciding whether planning is granted in respect of that project."

So there you have it: a key aim of the GCOB is to remove traffic from Galway City to make room for the traffic that will be generated by the new city centre development that will be facilitated by the GCOB!

In the case of the Quincentenary Bridge, orginally touted as the cure for Galway's traffic congestion, it was about ten years before traffic-generating development around the "ring road" started to cause congestion.

How long will it take for GCOB-related induced traffic to become unsalvageable, I wonder?

"Bother na dTreabh" is the DC/part of the S4 section (N18 to N84) of the existing route only, IWH. Its about half of the entire ring road, nothing more.

The NRA and indeed everyone except you it appears recognise the rest (N84 to R336) is unsalvagable. This includes the Corrib crossing which is the entire need for the outer bypass!

MYOB wrote: »

The demands would exist either way, as has been said repeatedly.

The current ring road was assembled out of a number of separate projects in the 1990s to provide temporary relief. Suggesting that it ever had a designated purpose is stretching it. The fact that it goes from being relatively high quality (bar the roundabouts) in to east to being single carriageway and veering back in towards the city to use a 1980s bridge before ending up on what was until recently a two lane road (and is being slowly widened to add some bus lanes) shows that it was never a coherent project.

If you want to give it a designated purpose, it was to give Galway five more years to build a proper bypass. We're approaching 20.

The traffic lights instead of roundabouts is Galway City Council not the NRA. The NRA only holds operational control on motorways (for the moment) with the rest falling to the county or borough authority.

Sewerage - right forum, wrong thread. All the towns and villages have grown massively giving rise to more transport requirements which is what this thread is dealing with.

Popular demand also, as in the hoo-ha stirred up by Frank Fahey et al.

The N6 upgrade, including the conversion of roundabouts to signalised junctions along with the implementation of an AUTC, is at the very least of strategic interest to the NRA.

Excerpts from the NRA's National Roads Traffic Management Study:

In Galway the strategic road network is still under development, and the existing Bóthar na dTreabh (N6) provides the function of a city bypass, but also has been subject to development of significant volumes of retail activity which hamper the ability of that road to achieve its primary function. There is therefore significant need to restore an appropriate level of safety and efficiency of the national road network in that area pending delivery of the Outer Bypass.

In the absence of the GCOB, the Galway Ring Road continues to provide connectivity between the major radial routes. Nevertheless, although constructed as a City Bypass, the existing Ring Road (Bóthar na dTreabh) has supported significant growth in retail and low-density employment uses which have been displaced from the City Centre by this infrastructure. This has led to significant erosion in the level of service provided by the ring road, leading to an inability to achieve its originally desired function.

The Traffic Management Study objectives set out a clear hierarchy of road users and required functions of a National Primary Route. In the case of the Galway Ring Road, it is evident that significant interventions are necessary in order to provide for the needs of the road, whilst considering the range of existing users along that corridor.

The ring road comprises a mixture of single and dual carriageway connecting the N6 with the N59. Whilst the at-grade roundabouts represent a key capacity constraint, it is noted that these roundabouts also provide access to numerous retail and commercial developments along the corridor, and as such any capacity increase would require such access to be considered. Whilst subject to more detailed design studies, a Traffic Management Study for Galway is therefore likely to include a number of initiatives which may include:

• Major enhancements at up to six existing at-grade junctions to improve traffic flow, provide for pedestrian/cycle movement and improve traffic safety;
• Removal of direct accesses where possible to protect traffic flow;
• Provision of new link roads to improve access to new grade separated junctions;
• Provision for high-value road users (Freight/Public Transport etc); and
• Significant investment in Smarter Travel policies and infrastructure to reduce car demand.

It is envisaged that a Traffic Management Study could deliver significant benefit to Galway City as an interim measure pending construction of the GCOB. The existing layout of the Galway Ring Road lends itself to significant scope for improvement, although the appropriate management of development clusters will be a significant requirement to ensure that the benefits of such a strategy can be fully captured.

Traffic management is where it's at currently, it would appear. Those who yearn for the GCOB to solve a range of problems will have much to ponder as they sit in their cars for the next few years.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

When I refer to "planning" I am talking about the consequences of accumulated, though often uncoordinated, decisions of the various authorities and others that have given rise to vociferous demands for a bypass.

The demands would exist either way, as has been said repeatedly.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The current "ring road" as referred to by the NRA was supposed to serve such purposes, was it not?

The current ring road was assembled out of a number of separate projects in the 1990s to provide temporary relief. Suggesting that it ever had a designated purpose is stretching it. The fact that it goes from being relatively high quality (bar the roundabouts) in to east to being single carriageway and veering back in towards the city to use a 1980s bridge before ending up on what was until recently a two lane road (and is being slowly widened to add some bus lanes) shows that it was never a coherent project.

If you want to give it a designated purpose, it was to give Galway five more years to build a proper bypass. We're approaching 20.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Indeed. And now that we are where we are the NRA is shifting the focus from construction of a bypass to traffic management. Hence the new regime with ripping out roundabouts etc?

The traffic lights instead of roundabouts is Galway City Council not the NRA. The NRA only holds operational control on motorways (for the moment) with the rest falling to the county or borough authority.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

2. I know. Towns and villages haven't been sustainably developed either, though. You may recall that the proximal cause of Galway City's notorious cryptosporidium outbreak in 2007 was Oughterard sewage.

Sewerage - right forum, wrong thread. All the towns and villages have grown massively giving rise to more transport requirements which is what this thread is dealing with.

MYOB wrote: »

As I said in my previous reply, the bypass planning was done at the direction of the NRA who plan on a national basis.

I meant in terms of service/transport provision. They chose to live in an entirely unsustainable manner, whereas those who live in towns and villages have a right to expect proper services - be that broadband, sewerage or safe roads that can actually get them places in a reasonable period of time

1. Indeed. And now that we are where we are the NRA is shifting the focus from construction of a bypass to traffic management. Hence the new regime of ripping out roundabouts etc?

2. I know. Towns and villages haven't been sustainably developed either, though. You may recall that the proximal cause of Galway City's notorious cryptosporidium outbreak in 2007 was Oughterard sewage.

MYOB wrote: »

You don't appear to be aware that the GCOB was designed by the Galway RDO on direction of the NRA, not the planning department.

The GCOB would be required had there been zero one off houses or twice the current number. There are villages, towns, and industries west of the Corrib which need a road that doesn't go through Galway to get anywhere east of the Corrib.

That you're combining replies to separate issues as if they were part of the same reply to suit your answer doesn't reflect well either.

When I refer to "planning" I am talking about the consequences of accumulated, though often uncoordinated, decisions of the various authorities and others that have given rise to vociferous demands for a bypass.

The current "ring road" as referred to by the NRA was supposed to serve such purposes, was it not?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

However, is there a coherent regional strategy, including a transportation plan, for such development? Or is it a case of stick in a bypass and hope for the best?

As I said in my previous reply, the bypass planning was done at the direction of the NRA who plan on a national basis.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

"Those in one-off houses can get lost". It is you who say it! There's an awful lot of them, though. And where are they going to get lost, now that there's hardly a boreen without a bungalow?

I meant in terms of service/transport provision. They chose to live in an entirely unsustainable manner, whereas those who live in towns and villages have a right to expect proper services - be that broadband, sewerage or safe roads that can actually get them places in a reasonable period of time

You don't appear to be aware that the GCOB was designed by the Galway RDO on direction of the NRA, not the planning department.

The GCOB would be required had there been zero one off houses or twice the current number. There are villages, towns, and industries west of the Corrib which need a road that doesn't go through Galway to get anywhere east of the Corrib.

That you're combining replies to separate issues as if they were part of the same reply to suit your answer doesn't reflect well either.

MYOB wrote: »

Connemara etc need a safe and speed-reliable route to beyond Galway (be it Dublin or indeed anywhere), probably better to state they need a safe and speed reliable route to east of the Corrib.

Knocknacarra isn't rural. Barna is a substantial enough town, as is Spiddal. Oughterard and Moycullen are bigger again and there is a fair amount of specialised industry in these areas - ranging from biochem, to fire engine manufacture, to radiators.

These areas are not car dependent in and of themselves but due to there being extremely poor public transport - something made worse by how poor the roads are - they are.

Those in one-off houses can get lost, but there are more than enough actually sustainable towns and villages/communities beyond those. This isn't required because of bungalow blight but because of actual places with groups of people, industries, tourism etc.

For various reasons -- social, economic and cultural -- I am willing to support the principle that Connemara needs to be aided with infrastructural development. Tourism is hugely important, now more than ever, and Galway City should be a gateway not a barrier.

However, is there a coherent regional strategy, including a transportation plan, for such development? Or is it a case of stick in a bypass and hope for the best?

I've already referred to the public transport and road maintenance issue. The externalised costs of our sporadic and uncoordinated development has an awful lot to do with these deficiencies.

"Those in one-off houses can get lost". It is you who say it! There's an awful lot of them, though. And where are they going to get lost, now that there's hardly a boreen without a bungalow?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, the lead authority for the GCOB is Galway Co Co, and they have consciously locked the citizenry into long-term car dependence. They want the Bypass to alleviate traffic problems they helped to create!

antoobrien wrote: »

Not really, that would be BE & IR, who fail to put in place any PT alternatives.

Ah, so the head is out of the sand, you acknowledge that the city traffic problems are not all due to the 40% of trips of 0-4 km distances - when you consider that 26% of people walk (I know 1 person in Galway & Dublin that will walk more than 4km to work/school - me) that always seemed rather like grasping at straws.

Oh by the way, the lack of planning in the city is more than partially responsible for the mess - why not run and try to sort it out?

Are you serious? Really really serious? You post a link to this map and then you lay the blame for the non-provision of public transport with Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann? And then you go on to suggest that MY head is in the sand!!! Laugh? I nearly dropped my little netbook...

One-off housing (an oxymoronic term, now that I think of it) made up 80% of Co. Galway completions in 2009. This was due to a massive fall-off in apartment construction, rather than an upsurge in bungalow blitz. There were c. 1000 one-off completions in Co. Galway in 2009, half the annual peak output of about 2000 one-offs during the Celtic Casino years. (Source: paper by James Nix on the Irish Planning Institute website)

The costs of providing all services, such as electricity, road repair, post and bin collection are much higher in rural areas, according to the above report. School transport in rural areas, for example, costs about five times as much as in urban areas:

The school transport scheme costs approx €200m a year. Of the 135,000 pupils carried annually, about 8,000 are students with special needs, and 30% of the cost is attributable to these pupils. Contributions make up 5% of the overall cost. Therefore, around €130 million a year is attributable to mainstream primary and secondary pupils. The annual subsidy per pupil works out at €1,025 per year, which equates to around €2.80 per journey for each student.

Subsidies for rural school transport are far higher than urban bus subsidies. The operating subvention for Dublin Bus was €86m in 2008, but because urban buses are more intensively used, with around 410,000 trips a day in the case of Dublin Bus, the average subsidy per journey is around 57 cent.

So is this what the neo rural dwellers expect? Higher subsidies for public transport so they can have buses on the boreens and trains near the cart tracks?

Either that or a shiny new bypass at taxpayers' expense to make their (often self imposed) car dependence less time-consuming?

Galway County Council has been strongly condemned for its highly questionable approach to "planning" and is one of a number of local authorities whose practices in this regard were targeted by government for an independent review last year. IIRC Galway City Council was not similarly criticised, though they still have a lot of other things to answer for.

Scepticism and "head in the sand" are not synonymous. I have always acknowledged that stupid "planning" in the city and county have directly led to traffic congestion. The unsustainably large volume of traffic entering or crossing the city is a direct result of the "planners" folly, of this country's populist politics and of the cumulative decisions of thousands of citizens who build "one-off" houses in the country for whatever reason.

I am sceptical of the GCOB proposal because (a) those same "planners" haven't gone away you know, and (b) I don't think either our populist 'leaders' or our compliant insouciant car-dependent citizenry should be rewarded with a bypass for this mass muppetry.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I was not misrepresenting anything. It was a naughty move, I'll admit, but it made a point: even strong proponents of the GCOB do not seem to be in complete agreement as to what it's for and who it's supposed to serve.

I'd be rather worried if everyone supporting or opposing something had identical viewpoints, in all honesty. I don't see how its an issue.