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Laws Question? Ask here!

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

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DerTierarzt

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Law Book defines a kick as hitting the ball with any part of your lower leg from the toe to, but not including your knee. It also refers to a kick not being made if made with the heel.

On that basis, both 1 and 2 are illegal and a drop goal attempt from same would be disallowed.

Not entirely sure you're right there. I know a move on one team whereby the nine passed just behind the onrushing out-half, so he would flick it over the opposition with the back of his heel as he was running - soccer style.

amacachi

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Not entirely sure you're right there. I know a move on one team whereby the nine passed just behind the onrushing out-half, so he would flick it over the opposition with the back of his heel as he was running - soccer style.

Wouldn't he be putting himself offside by doing that?

MungBean

Just seen this in the Leinster game and have seen it a lot. Player attacking, tackled and brought to ground. Tackling player releases regains feet and attempts to rob.

Another player of the defensive team goes passed and stands on the opposite side of the two to slow attacking support.

Is that not offside seeing as its not a ruck yet ?

karlitob

Deleted User wrote: »

Any choice of kick, so long as the ball strikes the ground first is fine,.

No, a game can be restarted from a drop or from the ground. The ball does not need to strike the ground first.

Deleted User wrote: »

However, referees may be pedantic in their judgement of the restart as rugby is not the kind of game that allows you to angle-shoot too often. It's a bit like the underhand serve in tennis, legal, but not quite allowed.

This doesn't make any sense. kick from ground or drop out are allowed for restarts.

karlitob

Skunkle wrote: »

Just seen this in the Leinster game and have seen it a lot. Player attacking, tackled and brought to ground. Tackling player releases regains feet and attempts to rob.

Another player of the defensive team goes passed and stands on the opposite side of the two to slow attacking support.

Is that not offside seeing as its not a ruck yet ?

Interesting one. Haven't seen it so much but will look out for it.

As you say, if it ain't a ruck I guess there's no offside. Since the tackler and the tackled player must release the player and the ball respectively, then the only penalty I can see is that the "offside" player is causing an obstruction.

What do you reckon?

karlitob

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Not entirely sure you're right there. I know a move on one team whereby the nine passed just behind the onrushing out-half, so he would flick it over the opposition with the back of his heel as he was running - soccer style.

Ridiculous. Considering your question on shooting a drop kick from behind the goals this post is nearly trolling. Losty Dublin clearly answered the question.

You cant kick the ball with your heel as defined in the law book.

They can have all the illegal moves they want - they'll still be illegal. Maybe they have a 'cavalry charge' move too.

Hagz

karlitob wrote: »

The ball does not need to strike the ground first.

Really? How come you never see restarts out of hand then?

DerTierarzt

karlitob wrote: »

Ridiculous. Considering your question on shooting a drop kick from behind the goals this post is nearly trolling. Losty Dublin clearly answered the question.

You cant kick the ball with your heel as defined in the law book.

They can have all the illegal moves they want - they'll still be illegal. Maybe they have a 'cavalry charge' move too.

It is inappropriate to label someone else's opinion as "ridiculous", perhaps strive to be less negative in some of your posts? Unaware that you were the moral barometer for this thread, I seem to have deviated from your favourite type of questions, e.g. unimaginative "if a pass goes forward, is that a forward pass?" ones. My question was a legitimate one, especially seeing as I've seen it done in a match.

karlitob

Hagz wrote: »

Really? How come you never see restarts out of hand then?

I had meant that a kick off can be from a drop-kick or from the ground (ie on a tee). But on closer inspection of the laws 13.1 (a) states that a kick-off must be a drop out but I could swear that Neil Jenkins used to take a kick-off from a sand tee.

Anyone have any thoughts?

MungBean

karlitob wrote: »

I had meant that a kick off can be from a drop-kick or from the ground (ie on a tee). But on closer inspection of the laws 13.1 (a) states that a kick-off must be a drop out but I could swear that Neil Jenkins used to take a kick-off from a sand tee.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I remember kick off from the ground too. Probably change the rules at some stage.

karlitob

DerTierarzt wrote: »

It is inappropriate to label someone else's opinion as "ridiculous", perhaps strive to be less negative in some of your posts? Unaware that you were the moral barometer for this thread, I seem to have deviated from your favourite type of questions, e.g. unimaginative "if a pass goes forward, is that a forward pass?" ones. My question was a legitimate one, especially seeing as I've seen it done in a match.

As previously answered by Downtime, Losty and now myself.

YOU CANNOT KICK A BALL WITH YOUR HEEL.

Page 6 of the law book.

http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/IRB_Laws_2011_EN.pdf

There are a lot of scenarios in a match that are illegal. This is one of them.

karlitob

Skunkle wrote: »

I remember kick off from the ground too. Probably change the rules at some stage.

Can't find a list of law changes over the years on the net. There's something quite nice about Jenkins' kick offs from the ground.

phog

I was reading in the IT W/C supplement during the week that Ireland's W/C game V the Pumas in 1999 saw the IRB implement 2 law changes.

60 second rule for penalty kicks and conversions
Maximum of 8 players in a lineout - Ireland used 13 in this game.

karlitob

phog wrote: »

I was reading in the IT W/C supplement during the week that Ireland's W/C game V the Pumas in 1999 saw the IRB implement 2 law changes.
60 second rule for penalty kicks and conversions

Maximum of 8 players in a lineout - Ireland used 13 in this game.

They mustn't have kept the 2nd one.

Law 19.8 (b)

daveharnett

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Not entirely sure you're right there. I know a move on one team whereby the nine passed just behind the onrushing out-half, so he would flick it over the opposition with the back of his heel as he was running - soccer style.

karlitob wrote: »

As previously answered by Downtime, Losty and now myself.

YOU CANNOT KICK A BALL WITH YOUR HEEL.

Agreed, what Tierarzt is describing is not considered a kick. As Downtime recently pointed out, a proper kick seems to be the only legal way to propel the ball forward (without splitting hairs about wind/momentum) (link)

The restart was changed to drop-kick-only about 5? years ago. Jenkins was about the only player to take advantage of a (sand) tee. Then somebody got the notion of restarting a 'high tee' (aka small traffic cone) and the whole notion was banned pretty swiftly.

daveharnett

Skunkle wrote: »

Just seen this in the Leinster game and have seen it a lot. Player attacking, tackled and brought to ground. Tackling player releases regains feet and attempts to rob.

Another player of the defensive team goes passed and stands on the opposite side of the two to slow attacking support.

Is that not offside seeing as its not a ruck yet ?

There is no offside for defenders in open play or at a tackle. The only requirement is that if they want to get involved at the tackle area, they must come through the gate.

We are likely to see a lot more of this at the WC - New Zealand have been doing a lot of this lately, both in attack and defense. I think a directive might be needed.

I see no problem with a player taking one step over the tackle to establish a good stance for the imminent ruck. I do have a problem when the intent is to protect the jackal; he's a would-be ball carrier, so the opposing team should have a chance to hit him.

Podge_irl

daveharnett wrote: »

I see no problem with a player taking one step over the tackle to establish a good stance for the imminent ruck. I do have a problem when the intent is to protect the jackal; he's a would-be ball carrier, so the opposing team should have a chance to hit him.

As soon as the would-be jackal picks up the ball the offensive pillar (for want of a better term) should be deemed obstructing surely? He's not really doing anything wrong til the ball is picked up though.

CIARAN_BOYLE

How long do you have to take a penaly before it is time wasting?

theboss80

1 minute i think from time you receive the kicking tee

karlitob

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

How long do you have to take a penaly before it is time wasting?

A minute - that minute begins from when he gives his intention to kick.

The post regarding receiving the tee is incorrect.

Shelflife

karlitob wrote: »

A minute - that minute begins from when he gives his intention to kick.

The post regarding receiving the tee is incorrect.

Sorry karlitob but you are incorrect.

No delay. If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal.

The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or

when the player makes a mark on the ground

Taken from the IRB rules website

karlitob

Shelflife wrote: »

Sorry karlitob but you are incorrect.

No delay. If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal.

The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or
when the player makes a mark on the ground

Taken from the IRB rules website

You are, indeed, correct. Thanks for that.

Taco Corp

The laws refer to "suitably trained" players in the front row. Who determines that a player is suitably trained? Or is it just up to the teams to declare that a player has been suitably trained?

Shelflife

Its up to the team/coach. they must be declared prior to the game on the team sheet.

Reloc8

^ This is correct, but there is more.

Ultimately the Referee is entitled to take the decision that a given player presented as 'suitably trained' is in fact not safe in the position.

If you made this call you would advise the person in charge of the team that they must substitute if they wish to continue contesting scrums (most leagues where this could happen have penalties by way of point deductions in place for a team which cannot contest scrums).

Podge_irl

Didn't SOB once get nominated as a front row player for Leinster in the HEC?

daveharnett

Shelflife wrote: »

Sorry karlitob but you are incorrect.

No delay. If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal.

The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or
when the player makes a mark on the ground

Taken from the IRB rules website

Hang on, doesn't that mean that we've all been doing this wrong for years? When a player points (or indicates) to the posts, we send the TJs to the goal and insist that the kicking team stick with their decision. According to this, there is no binding decision until the tee arrives?

I suspect that if we are happy ignoring one implication of this law, we should ignore the other too. If a team is playing sillybuggers with the tee, i'm going to start counting.

castie

daveharnett wrote: »

Hang on, doesn't that mean that we've all been doing this wrong for years? When a player points (or indicates) to the posts, we send the TJs to the goal and insist that the kicking team stick with their decision. According to this, there is no binding decision until the tee arrives?

I suspect that if we are happy ignoring one implication of this law, we should ignore the other too. If a team is playing sillybuggers with the tee, i'm going to start counting.

(b) If the kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, the kicker must kick at goal. Once the kicker has made the intention clear, there can be no change of the intention. The referee may enquire of the kicker as to the intention.

That seems to cover not changing their mind once theyve told the ref.
http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/5/21/210/during-the-match/penalty-and-free-kicks/scoring-a-goal-from-a-penalty-kick/#clause_210

the groutch

can someone explain to me when the ball has to be kicked into touch, and when it can, or has to bounce inside before going out of play?
I know that with penalties or if the mark has been called it has to go straight out of play, but what are the rules for other circumstances?

cython

the groutch wrote: »

can someone explain to me when the ball has to be kicked into touch, and when it can, or has to bounce inside before going out of play?
I know that with penalties or if the mark has been called it has to go straight out of play, but what are the rules for other circumstances?

As you said, you know that penalties or free kicks (of which the mark is a particular type) can be kicked direct to touch. However, it does not actually have to, but if you don't put it straight to touch, you give the opposing team a chance to keep it from going into touch, and largely negate any potential advantage from the kick.

In open play, if the ball is kicked straight to touch by a team outside their own 22, then the lineout is brought back to where the kick was taken. If it bounces in the field of play before going out, then the lineout takes place where it went out. If a team turns the ball over inside their 22 (at the breakdown, an intercept, fielding a kick, whatever) , they may clear with a kick straight to touch. If they carry it back inside their 22, then they may not (or the lineout will come back to be in line with the kick) until either an opposition player touches the ball, or a tackle, ruck, or maul take place.

Law 19 explains it