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Gas Fracking

tuppence

Hi,

I dunno whether any of you have heard of this controversial type of gas exploration technique called fracking that has been proposed for the Lough Allen basin which covers the areas of Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Donegal et al. Fracking is the same procedure that led to the earth tremor/quake in Blackpool a couple of weeks ago. And the same technique thats been recently banned in France.

Anyway, there is an award winning documentary called Gasland that is currently being shown around the north west and explains how the process has been linked with serious water pollution and health problems for people in and near the sites in America. In my view it is essential viewing if people want to start their journey on being informed about this situation in light of the two companies granted licences who are now on the verge of starting their exploration.
Next showing is in Ballymote
http://www.cinemanorthwest.com/

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$Photo of frackingishell$ frackingishell

good afternoon, i asked the below on the farming and fracking thread aswell;

folks, i think it's about time we got a summary of the barriers this industry now need to cross before they can attempt to destroy the enviroment by fracking for gas.

For all the vehemence of my opposition, i must confess, i just don't know whose hands this is in.

Can anyone enlighten us? I feel that, if we had the facts of who will be responsible for allowing this disaster to happen, we can better direct our efforts of opposition, and get some accountability, and put some faces to the decisions.

Thanks

Pete M.

Get in touch with this lot:

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie

Get some info re: Licencing etc. and lobby your local TD about it too.

I will post here when I know more about getting it shown in the TC.

garth-marenghi

Pete M. wrote: »

Would any of ye come to see this film if it was shown in the Trades Club?

Was chatting to a buck who could put it on.

A few of us did a stall and petition at the Parkfest (cairde festival) yesterday in town. We got a very good response with people wanting more information, to be put on mailing lists and to get actively involved. A lot of people were genuinely shocked at what is been proposed. A few also asked about Gasland been shown in sligo so im sure there is an audience there for it.

Going by the response yesterday think one of the best ways to get information out there and build a campaign is to get to festivals like Cairde and in particular the agricultural shows around the region with leaflets and petitions.

garth-marenghi

Very good piece from BBC news last year. This is moving at an alarming rate, Tamboran are meeting Cavan County Council this week as far as I know.
If you are not already informed about fracking, please get reading/watching etc and stop this before its on our doorstep. No point doing anything after the fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZqXGBlj10

IvyTheTerrible

Where I live in France, there were many sites proposed for shale gas exploration. We are not out of the woods yet (I am not convinced that the ban on fracturing alone is enough to stop this) but the protesting was very visible and vocal.

Particularly in the department (county) of Ardeche, there are "Non au Gaz de Schiste" signs everywhere, also the collective that is organising the protests has distributed thousands of bumper stickers, that we see everywhere. This keeps the issue in people's minds. There have also been protests with up to 10000 participants.

I think it would be worth looking at how they are doing things when planning a campaign in Ireland.

$Photo of frackingishell$ frackingishell

completely agree Ivy, i think we need to look at possible funding. i wonder who we could ask for money from( business-wise) who would be in direct opposition to fracking?

IvyTheTerrible

frackingishell wrote: »

completely agree Ivy, i think we need to look at possible funding. i wonder who we could ask for money from( business-wise) who would be in direct opposition to fracking?

Hmm, I'm not sure. I know that some of the costs of printing the stickers and posters were raised by donations made at the protests.

EDIT: I can find out more about the financing, I remembered I know someone involved in Ardeche...

tuppence

Yes it seems to be the members themselves that are financing it themselves here. Of course a kind benefactor would be so much welcomed. The likes of Chuck feeney or those if out there.....;)
Any innovative appraches most welcome from France especially since ye were so successful. Sometimes it seems to take a strong character at the helm. You have a strong guy in France havent you?

Pete M.

The film Gasland will be shown in the Trades Club on the 30th of July.

It will run a couple of times, from 5pm.

More details to follow.....

IvyTheTerrible

tuppence wrote: »

Yes it seems to be the members themselves that are financing it themselves here. Of course a kind benefactor would be so much welcomed. The likes of Chuck feeney or those if out there.....;)
Any innovative appraches most welcome from France especially since ye were so successful. Sometimes it seems to take a strong character at the helm. You have a strong guy in France havent you?

Jose Bove, he's pretty militant!

Here is the site for the collective in Ardeche:

http://www.stopaugazdeschiste07.org/

And here is a list of all their promotional material (some in English):

http://www.stopaugazdeschiste07.org/spip.php?rubrique5

This could give Irish organisers some inspiration in terms of a strong logo (I find the gas mask logo very powerful) etc.

garth-marenghi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/jul/14/gas-fracking-children-colouring-book?INTCMP=SRCH

One company in America targeting children with colouring books:(

garth-marenghi

For those who didnt see it here is the Prime Time coverage of Hydraulic Fracturing in the North-West from last night. The fracking segment starts about 15mins into the programme.
http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1109605

GG66

Is there an organised campaign against this? There seems to be a lot of local activity with little central co-ordination. Several facebook pages, web pages etc.

This dilutes the effect of any campaign.

Gipo3

Its probably being organised by the same type of gobsh1tes as for the corrib pipeline.:pac::pac:

$Photo of frackingishell$ frackingishell

well, the organisation took a hit lst night, but hopefully the Irish people are smart enough to see what happened last night on rte prime time was an exercise in disinformation.

What essentially happened was, Leah Doherty (one of the leading campaigners..) was ambushed by them saying they could do it with only water and sand. This was seriously out of the blue, and it took the discussion away from the negative impacts of fracking, to the RTE presenter having a go at Ms. Doherty saying, 'well, would you accept it if there's no chemicals' in it.

I think Ms. Doherty was definitely put in an unprepared position at that point, as doing it without chemicals is completely new and unknown.

The excuse the smug tamoboran guy made(who by the way, was literally laughing right through the interview), was that it wasn't that deep in Ireland compared to anywhere else, so it could be done with sand and water, as they wouldnt need the chemicals for lubrication.

To me this was a bit bizarre, but taking it at face value (which i dont), the only way this could be monitored and acceptable is if every single injection into the ground was supervised.

NOT taking it at face value, i see this as a cynical way to get this through the planning process, use just water that won't work (if it was that easy we could reverse global warming!), and when the wells have been built, say 'look, water isn't working, sure we have the wells, we have to use the chemicals', and the Irish Government politicians are bought and we have your traditional fracking.

i fail to see how simply pumping water 2km under ground will fracture rock to a depth deep enough to unleash buried gas in seams, even if it is only shale. And water has NEVER been only used with sand as a means to Frack.

This was an exercise in bullsh*t by the Tamboran guy. The fact is, that he was probably laughing because he and his mates had been discussing off camera to see if they could get away with saying they'd do it with 'no chemicals at all' on Irish television. just to shut Leah Doherty up and dismiss the whole point of the interview. He probably had mates just behind the camera making faces at him,that REALLY looked like what was happening- i've done it myself loads of times messing when someone is trying to keep a straight face.. And the thick Irish presenter, who obviously hadn't done his research , took it hook line and sinker without barely a whimper.

Saying out of the blue like he did, that it can be done with no water, is akin to NATO saying there'll definitely be no civilian casualties on their next bombing mission. Assuage public opinion at the beginning, knowing full well that once youre in, there aint a damn thing people will be able to do about it. Donald, Dick and George, eat your heart out

That Tamboran lad is evil incarnate, by his track record, and i just got the feeling he was last night. That's just me though.

Buford T Justice

I know sod all about fracking, and it doesn't terribly interest me to be honest.

However, from watching prime time, the woman who was campaigning against it clearly lost that battle. She had little or no facts behind her and I got the impression that she was disagreeing with everything that was said just for the sake of it. Everything that yer man said she claimed was lies, and yet she had no facts to back anything up. At least the people wanting to do the fracking explained their side of things a bit better, albeit while looking like a smug git when he was being interviewed. Wonder what he was laughing at.

I'm also interested in how she believes that this will result in the loss of jobs in Leitrim. 'An end to industries and real jobs' as she put it. are there pretend jobs or something?

She can't accept anything, and clearly we're a bunch of paddies who don't know enough about this to be able to regulate this industry.

They argument that the non chemical method won't work simply because its never been done before is frankly laughable. If we all took that at face value then the wright brothers would never have invented flight, along with not having the lightbulb, the car, TV, the wheel etc......

She made no comment on it when it was put to her, instead made comments about how they're the big bad wolf who'll do it anyway when we're looking the other way.

garth-marenghi

Buford T Justice wrote: »

I know sod all about fracking, and it doesn't terribly interest me to be honest.

However, from watching prime time, the woman who was campaigning against it clearly lost that battle. She had little or no facts behind her and I got the impression that she was disagreeing with everything that was said just for the sake of it. Everything that yer man said she claimed was lies, and yet she had no facts to back anything up. At least the people wanting to do the fracking explained their side of things a bit better, albeit while looking like a smug git when he was being interviewed. Wonder what he was laughing at.

I'm also interested in how she believes that this will result in the loss of jobs in Leitrim. 'An end to industries and real jobs' as she put it. are there pretend jobs or something?

She can't accept anything, and clearly we're a bunch of paddies who don't know enough about this to be able to regulate this industry.

They argument that the non chemical method won't work simply because its never been done before is frankly laughable. If we all took that at face value then the wright brothers would never have invented flight, along with not having the lightbulb, the car, TV, the wheel etc......

She made no comment on it when it was put to her, instead made comments about how they're the big bad wolf who'll do it anyway when we're looking the other way.

You should check out the various articles/videos/and movies(gasland) that are out there online to get a flavour of the consequences of when Fracking goes wrong. And when you consider that its been proposed for this region thats reason enough for me to be interested.

Leah Doherty is not a professionally trained, media savy indvivdual who has done lots of media work. She is a member of a local grassroots anti-fracking campaign who was asked at very short notice to participate in the live debate so to be fair to her its not surprising that it appeared to some that she lost the argument. She is speaking from the heart about genuine concerns she and many others have for the region. Richard Moorman is thinking in terms of maximising profit and attracting investors.

In relation to jobs. Tourism and the food industry are seen as two key areas of growth in the jobs sector in the future. I think the point is if Fracking goes ahead and hundreds of wells(tamborans estimate) are built in Leitrim alone this is hardly going to prove attractive to tourists. I for one dont want to go around Leitrim and see a gas well at intervals of every mile or two. (google to see how big these thing are and imagine hundreds, the traffic, access roade etc in leitrim)

In a similiar way if there even one incident in relation to a spill, or some kind of accident with the water supply or whatever of course this could jeporadise farmers and the food industrys reputation globally and therefore jobs. Another example is as far as im aware Abbots in Sligo once contemplated moving but decided to stay due to the good quality of the water supply (correct me if im wrong). With fracking this would be under threat.

She is not making the remark about fracking not working without chemicals in a flippant way. Dr charles ingraffea of cornell university, a man with 30 years experience in rock fracture mechanics has cast serious doubts on tamborans claims (see link) http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/10/4005993-tamborans-claims-of-chemical-free-frack-fluid-challenged-by-expert/

I think we are all right to be very wary of this project and not take everything Moorman says at face value. He is a smooth PR operator who in the space of a few weeks said fracking would involve chemicals to all of a sudden have zero. We must question this assertion, it has never been done and all of a sudden it is possible, dr ingraffea has poured scorn on the claim and lest we forget Mr Moorman worked for South-western Energy until the middle part of this year and they are now been sued in the U.S for damage caused by fracking. At the very least that must be worrying.

garth-marenghi

frackingishell wrote: »

well, the organisation took a hit lst night, but hopefully the Irish people are smart enough to see what happened last night on rte prime time was an exercise in disinformation.

What essentially happened was, Leah Doherty (one of the leading campaigners..) was ambushed by them saying they could do it with only water and sand. This was seriously out of the blue, and it took the discussion away from the negative impacts of fracking, to the RTE presenter having a go at Ms. Doherty saying, 'well, would you accept it if there's no chemicals' in it.

I think Ms. Doherty was definitely put in an unprepared position at that point, as doing it without chemicals is completely new and unknown.

The excuse the smug tamoboran guy made(who by the way, was literally laughing right through the interview), was that it wasn't that deep in Ireland compared to anywhere else, so it could be done with sand and water, as they wouldnt need the chemicals for lubrication.

To me this was a bit bizarre, but taking it at face value (which i dont), the only way this could be monitored and acceptable is if every single injection into the ground was supervised.

NOT taking it at face value, i see this as a cynical way to get this through the planning process, use just water that won't work (if it was that easy we could reverse global warming!), and when the wells have been built, say 'look, water isn't working, sure we have the wells, we have to use the chemicals', and the Irish Government politicians are bought and we have your traditional fracking.

i fail to see how simply pumping water 2km under ground will fracture rock to a depth deep enough to unleash buried gas in seams, even if it is only shale. And water has NEVER been only used with sand as a means to Frack.

This was an exercise in bullsh*t by the Tamboran guy. The fact is, that he was probably laughing because he and his mates had been discussing off camera to see if they could get away with saying they'd do it with 'no chemicals at all' on Irish television. just to shut Leah Doherty up and dismiss the whole point of the interview. He probably had mates just behind the camera making faces at him,that REALLY looked like what was happening- i've done it myself loads of times messing when someone is trying to keep a straight face.. And the thick Irish presenter, who obviously hadn't done his research , took it hook line and sinker without barely a whimper.

Saying out of the blue like he did, that it can be done with no water, is akin to NATO saying there'll definitely be no civilian casualties on their next bombing mission. Assuage public opinion at the beginning, knowing full well that once youre in, there aint a damn thing people will be able to do about it. Donald, Dick and George, eat your heart out

That Tamboran lad is evil incarnate, by his track record, and i just got the feeling he was last night. That's just me though.

To be fair Frackingshell the comment about using no chemicals is not something new or out of the blue. Its been in the media recently and the claim has already been discredited by Dr Charles Ingraffea from Cornell University. Leah would defintely have been aware of these developments. I do agree with your overall sentiment though about been very wary of Moorman and Fracking

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/10/4005993-tamborans-claims-of-chemical-free-frack-fluid-challenged-by-expert/

Buford T Justice

garth-marenghi wrote: »

You should check out the various articles/videos/and movies(gasland) that are out there online to get a flavour of the consequences of when Fracking goes wrong. And when you consider that its been proposed for this region thats reason enough for me to be interested.

Leah Doherty is not a professionally trained, media savy indvivdual who has done lots of media work. She is a member of a local grassroots anti-fracking campaign who was asked at very short notice to participate in the live debate so to be fair to her its not surprising that it appeared to some that she lost the argument. She is speaking from the heart about genuine concerns she and many others have for the region. Richard Moorman is thinking in terms of maximising profit and attracting investors.

In relation to jobs. Tourism and the food industry are seen as two key areas of growth in the jobs sector in the future. I think the point is if Fracking goes ahead and hundreds of wells(tamborans estimate) are built in Leitrim alone this is hardly going to prove attractive to tourists. I for one dont want to go around Leitrim and see a gas well at intervals of every mile or two. (google to see how big these thing are and imagine hundreds, the traffic, access roade etc in leitrim)

In a similiar way if there even one incident in relation to a spill, or some kind of accident with the water supply or whatever of course this could jeporadise farmers and the food industrys reputation globally and therefore jobs. Another example is as far as im aware Abbots in Sligo once contemplated moving but decided to stay due to the good quality of the water supply (correct me if im wrong). With fracking this would be under threat.

She is not making the remark about fracking not working without chemicals in a flippant way. Dr charles ingraffea of cornell university, a man with 30 years experience in rock fracture mechanics has cast serious doubts on tamborans claims (see link) http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/10/4005993-tamborans-claims-of-chemical-free-frack-fluid-challenged-by-expert/

I think we are all right to be very wary of this project and not take everything Moorman says at face value. He is a smooth PR operator who in the space of a few weeks said fracking would involve chemicals to all of a sudden have zero. We must question this assertion, it has never been done and all of a sudden it is possible, dr ingraffea has poured scorn on the claim and lest we forget Mr Moorman worked for South-western Energy until the middle part of this year and they are now been sued in the U.S for damage caused by fracking. At the very least that must be worrying.

An excellent post, thankyou. In fairness, you should have been on the TV instead of that woman....
I've no argument with anything you said. I think it is fair not to take everything at face value yes, but when he was called a liar for everything he said did seem like a last ditch effort of a desperate campaigner.. I don't think it's done the cause any favors at all.

tuppence

GG66 wrote: »

Is there an organised campaign against this? There seems to be a lot of local activity with little central co-ordination. Several facebook pages, web pages etc.

This dilutes the effect of any campaign.

Yes I see what you mean and agree in many ways. Rather than going into too much details here if I ever get a moment I shall pm you. Suffice to say it is structured but also true to say is that it could be structured better! There eg is the remnants of two groups which have now been amalgamated into one.
There is alot of local activity and yes thats for a reason, but this is such a big campaign that its countywide, intercounty , national and international.

Anyway its no accident that Prime Time were down, the company know that this leitrim group have legs...(and we need all of your support to maintain stamina and morale)
For example the group mobilised a hundred people in the space of two days on an email round up alone for the german politician helmut Fehr whose region in germany banned fracking. (he was on holiday, hence short notice!)

Anyway is that an offer of support? All support and advice is extremely welcome.

A few dates for ye'r diaries!!!

Currently there is an audio visual information exhibition bout fracking in the Leitrim Sculpture Centre. this is a mobile exhibition and can be moved to libraries all round the region. (eg to Sligo

) Its already going to fermanagh. Its been extended for the weekend and will be running from 12 to 4pm.

There is a public meeting on in Carrick on Shannon,, hosted by Lough Allen Conservation Society on September 1st at 8pm in the Bush hotel. Pls come and invite friends family members, etc that will be affected by this (farmers, fisherman, people in tourist industry,families with kids...this is a public health issue this means everyone! ) to get information.

We will be also doing fundraisers soon as well small and larger ventures and we have a few big names on board.......We will be giving ye a call out. It would be great if ye could come.

This is not a county issue as you know, it threatens parts of Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, to name just a few as well as Leitrim. There will need to be a unified response on a local level but ultimately the national response we are after is a ban. Pls share the petition.

Tuppence

$Photo of frackingishell$ frackingishell

Buford T Justice wrote: »

I'm also interested in how she believes that this will result in the loss of jobs in Leitrim. 'An end to industries and real jobs' as she put it. are there pretend jobs or something?

Dear Buford- when the land gets screwed after Fracking- real tourism jobs and real agr4icultural jobs, along with all the associated services are GONE.

Thats about as far as i got on your post to be honest, not reading anymore if you can't see that basic fact for yourself.

$Photo of frackingishell$ frackingishell

garth-marenghi wrote: »

To be fair Frackingshell the comment about using no chemicals is not something new or out of the blue. Its been in the media recently and the claim has already been discredited by Dr Charles Ingraffea from Cornell University. Leah would defintely have been aware of these developments. I do agree with your overall sentiment though about been very wary of Moorman and Fracking

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/10/4005993-tamborans-claims-of-chemical-free-frack-fluid-challenged-by-expert/

fair play Garth, i hadn't heard of it myself to be honest so I must look into what's been said. That chap is evil though, and i'm intelligent enough to know that me saying that will sound like i'm a crackpot to alot of people. But as i said before, i'm not religious, but that guy really scared me in a spiritual sense....ANYWAY! Disappointed our rep wasn't ready for it, but it wasn't Leah's fault.

I was shouting at the screen with my own questions for that smug get (i first would have asked why are you laughing and smiling on our national station on a hugely important subject' etc.) That guy needed a serious forceful talking to. I'd love to get my hands on him.

garth-marenghi

frackingishell wrote: »

Dear Buford- when the land gets screwed after Fracking- real tourism jobs and real agr4icultural jobs, along with all the associated services are GONE.

Thats about as far as i got on your post to be honest, not reading anymore if you can't see that basic fact for yourself.

Buford T said they didnt know much about Fracking and asked what Leah Doherty meant about the potential loss of jobs. I replied and refered to jobs question. Buford said they didnt disagree with my post. My point is I know you are very passionate about the topic but you your post comes caross as antagonistic because the poster might not know as much about fracking as you do. A hell of a lot of people havent heard about it before but you arent going to convince them by having a go.

garth-marenghi

Buford T Justice wrote: »

An excellent post, thankyou. In fairness, you should have been on the TV instead of that woman....
I've no argument with anything you said. I think it is fair not to take everything at face value yes, but when he was called a liar for everything he said did seem like a last ditch effort of a desperate campaigner.. I don't think it's done the cause any favors at all.

Trust me, Leah Doherty is far more articulate and clued up about the subject than I am! Anybody who had to go into that live television scenario at short notice without having done it would find it difficult.

Buford T Justice

frackingishell wrote: »

Dear Buford- when the land gets screwed after Fracking- real tourism jobs and real agr4icultural jobs, along with all the associated services are GONE.

Thats about as far as i got on your post to be honest, not reading anymore if you can't see that basic fact for yourself.

You're missing my point. If you want my support ('you' and 'my' are generalizations, and not specific to you and me) then you should be explaining all the facts to me in an effort to do so. Not a case of 'give me your support, and go look up the information yourself'

Anyway, my point was, as an outsider on this who knows little or nothing about this the point of the show should have been to explain both sides of the story adequately for the un-familiar on this. IMO, this didn't happen and all we got were wild accusations with a bunch of disagreements.
It was simply a wild claim that it would result in the loss of jobs. I believe I was right to question how this is possible, seeing as I didn't know how it would happen. as said tho, this has been answered here for me.

garth-marenghi wrote: »

Trust me, Leah Doherty is far more articulate and clued up about the subject than I am! Anybody who had to go into that live television scenario at short notice without having done it would find it difficult.

Then its a real shame she didn't come across that way on TV. Bad form by RTE then in fairness for lamping this on the lobbyists at the last minute.

Buford T Justice

Here's a question.

When they drill a hole, and say they don't find anything. Is the well cap left there as a permanent fixture, or do they fill in the holes again?

tuppence

Here you go Buford your chance to ask those questions!

Lough Allen Conservation Society
is hosting a public information/discussion on the issue of 'Hydraulic Fracturing ('fracking') for shale gas in the Northwest Carboniferous Region*
Location - The Bush Hotel, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co.Leitrim.
Date/Time - Thursday, September 1st, 8pm

This is a public meeting with a short presentation and an open discussion.

All public representatives and interested groups including IFA, Waterways Ireland, Coillte etc.. have been invited to attend.

This topic is causing great concern among all sections of local communities. Join us and share our growing movement to equip ourselves with facts to make informed decesions into this issue.

zenno

If this gas fracking is allowed to go ahead and is not stopped then we can all say goodbye to our health and the environment and also our water supply.

I can see very serious problems ahead in relation to this gas fracking and I cannot believe the government gave the go-ahead as this is akin to allowing a company destroy a country and the health of humans and animals and our water. it just goes to show that the government don't give a rats arse about the health and safety of it's citizens.

god help the people living around the 3 gas companies drilling sites and for the rest of us.

people better get educated on this issue soon, this is a very serious problem that will affect everyone in this country.

Buford T Justice

tuppence wrote: »

Here you go Buford your chance to ask those questions!

Lough Allen Conservation Society
is hosting a public information/discussion on the issue of 'Hydraulic Fracturing ('fracking') for shale gas in the Northwest Carboniferous Region*
Location - The Bush Hotel, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co.Leitrim.
Date/Time - Thursday, September 1st, 8pm

This is a public meeting with a short presentation and an open discussion.

All public representatives and interested groups including IFA, Waterways Ireland, Coillte etc.. have been invited to attend.

This topic is causing great concern among all sections of local communities. Join us and share our growing movement to equip ourselves with facts to make informed decesions into this issue.

No can do I'm afraid. I've a wedding to attend this week, so I'm full up with that at the moment.

I thought someone here would know the answer to that tho.

Gipo3

Surely some of the "experts" here know the answer to your question Buford.