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Laws Question? Ask here!

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

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Downtime

Surley wrote: »

Can anyone remember when lifting in the lineout was first introduced?

Not sure but possibly 1992 when the yellow card came back and the try was moved from 4 to 5 points.

Actually it was 1996 when rugby went professional and when tactical subs were also introduced. It was referred to as 'supporting the line out jumper' and not lifting. Lifting was only introduced to the laws in 2008.

defadman

eh was just wondering, whats coming in from the side at ruck time?

kensutz

There is a "gate" where arriving players are allowed enter to rucks. If a player comes in from any other angle, they are perceived as coming in from the side.

This is a good link with pics to describe it http://www.crashtacklerugbygame.co.za/component/kunena/38-off-side/699-rucks#1535

dastardly00

hopefully someone will be able to answer this easily enough....

The scenario is: a player in possession of the ball attempts a pass to another player, and the ball clearly goes backwards.
However for whatever reason, the ball doesn't go to hand. The pass is too short or too long etc.
The ball bounces on the ground, and it bounces forward..... is that a forward pass (even though the original pass before it hit the ground was clearly backwards) or play on (and the ball can do as much bouncing on the ground as it wants and it doesn't matter)?

Risteard

dastardly00 wrote: »

hopefully someone will be able to answer this easily enough....

The scenario is: a player in possession of the ball attempts a pass to another player, and the ball clearly goes backwards.
However for whatever reason, the ball doesn't go to hand. The pass is too short or too long etc.
The ball bounces on the ground, and it bounces forward..... is that a forward pass (even though the original pass before it hit the ground was clearly backwards) or play on (and the ball can do as much bouncing on the ground as it wants and it doesn't matter)?

Nope. Perfectly fine.

tolosenc

Risteard wrote: »

Nope. Perfectly fine.

Correct, as long as the action of the pass was not towards the opponents endline, it doesn't matter where the ball ends up.

MungBean

When you tackle a player and bring him to the ground you have to release that player to allow him to present the ball right? But cant that player once released be deemed not held and try to regain his feet ?

Downtime

Skunkle wrote: »

When you tackle a player and bring him to the ground you have to release that player to allow him to present the ball right? But cant that player once released be deemed not held and try to regain his feet ?

Yes but he must release the ball before getting to his feet

Podge_irl

Skunkle wrote: »

When you tackle a player and bring him to the ground you have to release that player to allow him to present the ball right? But cant that player once released be deemed not held and try to regain his feet ?

No. Once your knee (I think?) touches the ground while you are being held the tackle is judged to be complete. You have to release the ball.

kensutz

Correct, while being held, once the knee makes contact to the ground you are considered to be tackled and must release the ball.

MungBean

Podge_irl wrote: »

No. Once your knee (I think?) touches the ground while you are being held the tackle is judged to be complete. You have to release the ball.

So anything other than releasing the ball after being brought to the ground regardless of being held is illegal ? Gotcha, thanks.

daveharnett

Wonder if you guys can help settle a bet regarding the restart.

If a restart bounces before it reaches the opponents 10M line, then rolls over the 10, is it play on, or do the receiving team get the play/scrum/do-over option?

I reckon that it is play on - the law doesn't say the kick needs to reach the 10 on the full.

I've also done it a few times without penalty. The few times I played ten, I enjoyed restarting with a hard grubber toward the nearest prop, looking for an awkward bounce/knock on

Is there a directive or common interpretation that I'm not aware of?

Taco Corp

daveharnett wrote: »

Wonder if you guys can help settle a bet regarding the restart.

If a restart bounces before it reaches the opponents 10M line, then rolls over the 10, is it play on, or do the receiving team get the play/scrum/do-over option?

I reckon that it is play on - the law doesn't say the kick needs to reach the 10 on the full.

I've also done it a few times without penalty. The few times I played ten, I enjoyed restarting with a hard grubber toward the nearest prop, looking for an awkward bounce/knock on

Is there a directive or common interpretation that I'm not aware of?

Law 13.5

If the ball reaches the opponents’ 10-metre line or reaches the 10-metre line and is blown back, play continues.

Law 13.6

If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line but is first played by an opponent, play continues..

Law 13.7

If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line the opposing team has two choices:

To have the ball kicked off again, or
To have a scrum at the centre of the half-way line and they throw in the ball.

My understanding of this is that, in your senario, it is only play on if the opposition plays the ball.

Downtime

daveharnett wrote: »

Wonder if you guys can help settle a bet regarding the restart.

If a restart bounces before it reaches the opponents 10M line, then rolls over the 10, is it play on, or do the receiving team get the play/scrum/do-over option?

I reckon that it is play on - the law doesn't say the kick needs to reach the 10 on the full.

I've also done it a few times without penalty. The few times I played ten, I enjoyed restarting with a hard grubber toward the nearest prop, looking for an awkward bounce/knock on

Is there a directive or common interpretation that I'm not aware of?

Yeah it is play on. You often see a ball bounce within 10 metres and no one touches it but it then goes over the 10 and its play on.

castie

Downtime wrote: »

Yeah it is play on. You often see a ball bounce within 10 metres and no one touches it but it then goes over the 10 and its play on.

Thats only if the opposition plays on.
Otherwise its a scrum at half way.

Downtime

castie wrote: »

Thats only if the opposition plays on.
Otherwise its a scrum at half way.

No its not - if the ball bounces after 8 metres and then goes 10, without being played it is play on. Even if it bounces 6 times it is play on. The law states that the ball must travel 10 metres. If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line the opposing team has two choices: To have the ball kicked off again, or To have a scrum at the centre of the half-way line and they throw in the ball. If the ball does not travel 10 metres but the opposition play it, it is play on.

[Deleted User]

The law clearly says "Reaches". I'm sure that means gets there with or without the assistance of a bounce.

As seen, if it reaches the 10m line in mid air and is blown back, then that's play on too.

Any choice of kick, so long as the ball strikes the ground first is fine, a dirty grubber of an "onside kick" a la American Football is fine too.

However, referees may be pedantic in their judgement of the restart as rugby is not the kind of game that allows you to angle-shoot too often. It's a bit like the underhand serve in tennis, legal, but not quite allowed.

daveharnett

Bumped into one of the international refs last night. The word is that it doesn't matter whether it bounces. Once it reaches the 10, play on.

Shelflife

Two questions

Player A in a ruck on his feet, scrum half picks up the ball and player A comes through ruck/reaches out and grabs ball/player (note this is after SH has picked up the ball) why is it a penalty?

How many players must be on the pitch for the game to continue ? ie if there are numerous red/yellow cards when do you call it off?

Downtime

Shelflife wrote: »

Two questions

Player A in a ruck on his feet, scrum half picks up the ball and player A comes through ruck/reaches out and grabs ball/player (note this is after SH has picked up the ball) why is it a penalty?

How many players must be on the pitch for the game to continue ? ie if there are numerous red/yellow cards when do you call it off?

To answer your second question I believe that there has to be 5 players in the scrum at all times and someone to throw the ball into the scrum. On the other hand if there have been 9 players sent off there is a bigger problem and perhaps the game should have ended long before that point.

To answer your first question there is probably a few explanations although I cannot find an exact reference in law. Player A must be on his feet in the ruck anyway. He also must be bound to an opposition player. Grabbing the SH does not constitute binding on to him and therefore pulling him into the ruck is not allowed. Also there is a question as to whether player A is in the ruck if he is on his feet and not bound. If he is not bound he must retreat on side. Therefore if he plays the scrum half as the SH is picking the ball and Player is not bound he is offside. If the ruck is over i.e. the ball is out and player A comes through what was the ruck from an onside position and plays the SH then there is no problem.

daveharnett

Shelflife wrote: »

Player A in a ruck on his feet, scrum half picks up the ball and player A comes through ruck/reaches out and grabs ball/player (note this is after SH has picked up the ball) why is it a penalty?

If the rucking player enters the ruck correctly, stays on his feet and bound at all times, then I know of nothing in law to prevent him clobbering the SH as soon as the ruck ends.

The most likely scenario for a PK is that the rucking player committed some offense (in from the side, not bound etc..) which was being ignored as immaterial up to the point where he interfered with the SH.

Given that a SH becoming entangled in a ruck tends to make a mess (and a potential flashpoint), I could also see refs assuming an offense on the part of the rucking player where none existed.

Samich

Just wondering when the ball is taken down by a player in a lineout, when can the defending back line come up to the back foot, as they are 10m back when the lineout takes place. I think I heard when the lineout ends, when does a lineout end?

Losty Dublin

Samich wrote: »

Just wondering when the ball is taken down by a player in a lineout, when can the defending back line come up to the back foot, as they are 10m back when the lineout takes place. I think I heard when the lineout ends, when does a lineout end?

The 5 instances that decide when a line out ends and defending lines can advance are....

A player in the line out plays the ball away, either from a flick, knock forward, a kick or a pass.
The hindmost foot of the ensuing maul or ruck from the line out goes beyond the line of touch (That's where the line out took place.
When the ball leaves the ruck or maul formed from the line out; usually from a peel off or the scrum half passing the ball from same.
When the ball or a player in possession of the ball crosses the 5 or 15 meter line
The ball is thrown and goes beyond the 15 metre line.

DerTierarzt

Downtime wrote: »

In the Eddie O'Sullivan era Connacht used to do a 14 man lineout close to the oppositions line. Most of the players would join in the subsequent maul. There is no maxiumum number of players for a maul or lineout (well 15 is the max). Cant remember the instance you refer to.

Something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxig5xSA8k

If I remember correctly Ireland did something similar at one of the RWCs?

daveharnett

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxig5xSA8k

If I remember correctly Ireland did something similar at one of the RWCs?

I think they were referring to 14 players actually taking part in the lineout.

As a point of order, the maul in this video was almost certainly illegal - can't be sure from the video's angle, but I can't imagine that the maul had moved off the mark before the backs broke the 10m offside line and piled in.

DerTierarzt

My friends and I sometimes try backwards drop kicks for the laugh. Then a friend of mine said recently that a kick is only legal if it's with the front of the foot. I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but got me thinking:

Could one score a drop goal with a backheel?
Could one "kick" a ball on using their thigh or knee?

Shelflife

1. as long as its a proper drop kick i cant see why not, would love to see it tried in a game

2.yes you can.

phog

DerTierarzt wrote: »

My friends and I sometimes try backwards drop kicks for the laugh. Then a friend of mine said recently that a kick is only legal if it's with the front of the foot. I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but got me thinking:
Could one score a drop goal with a backheel?

Could one "kick" a ball on using their thigh or knee?

How would you physically do it, you have to drop the ball to the ground and kick it on the rebound, doubt you could do it and more importantly cant see why you'd take the chance to miss kick it and become a luaghing stock.

Losty Dublin

DerTierarzt wrote: »

My friends and I sometimes try backwards drop kicks for the laugh. Then a friend of mine said recently that a kick is only legal if it's with the front of the foot. I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but got me thinking:
Could one score a drop goal with a backheel?

Could one "kick" a ball on using their thigh or knee?

The Law Book defines a kick as hitting the ball with any part of your lower leg from the toe to, but not including your knee. It also refers to a kick not being made if made with the heel.

On that basis, both 1 and 2 are illegal and a drop goal attempt from same would be disallowed.

Shelflife

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Law Book defines a kick as hitting the ball with any part of your lower leg from the toe to, but not including your knee. It also refers to a kick not being made if made with the heel.

On that basis, both 1 and 2 are illegal and a drop goal attempt from same would be disallowed.

I stand corrected, so allowing the ball to bounce off your knee would be deemed to be a knock on?