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Are you ashamed of the State's behaviour in the 40's, 50's. 60's & 70's?

CommuterIE

The Catholic schools... can be any strain... the CBS's, The Magdeline Schools etc... do you blame the State for the abuses or the Institutions (for hiding it in a lot of cases)... I blame the State tbh, it is ultimatley their responsibility... what happened to the victims was gross beyond believe and many living today have very deep scars that they will never overcome.

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Dudess

CommuterIE wrote: »

Hang on a second, no one thinks for one second they are accountable and I certainly don't... however, this country was founded on principles that were broken non-stop and destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people... This is what makes me ashamed of those years... that the country I love sank so low!

Maybe it depends on your definition of "ashamed" so. For me, "ashamed" implies a certain degree of feeling responsible.

alchemist33

State and institutions are both culpable, but primarily it was the people who committed the abuse, which doesn't seem to be a poll option.

CommuterIE

KeithAFC wrote: »

The state is what i went for.

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

Duckworth_Luas

I naively thought that after Jedward's magnificent, decisive and overwhelming victory tonight, that AH would be free of the usual Irish self-flagellation threads. Wrong, now I'm being asked if I'm ashamed of my country because of the actions and inactions of complete strangers from before I was born.

CommuterIE

Dudess wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "ashamed" so. For me, "ashamed" implies a certain degree of feeling responsible.

Maybe I am using the wrong word... can you suggest one? I'm not ashamed but angry when I look back and it brings me down... word for that?

gigino

ScumLord wrote: »

But, we're the state.

No, Politicians and the political establishment at the time were the state, and shame on them for allowing it to happen / colluding with the r.c .church. In recent times, the state should not have agreed to pay most of the compensation, given the vast wealth accumulated by the rcc , here + in the vatican.

KeithAFC

CommuterIE wrote: »

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

Dudess

themadchef wrote: »

All we can do is try to make it better for our kids. We cant turn back the clock.

Shame is what got us inot alot of trouble in the first place is it not?

Well said.

easyeason3 wrote: »

That's a fair point. But how many people did raise concerns? And to who?
I'm guessing if anyone did it would have fallen on deaf ears.

I know of one case where a priest wrote to the Department of Education in relation to the horrors he witnessed at Artane, which yielded nothing. I've no doubt he was far from alone.

My name is URL

KeithAFC wrote: »

The state is what i went for.

I'm shocked!, Shocked!!

well, not that shocked

CommuterIE

KeithAFC wrote: »

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

No you didn't, you stated your choice to get a dig in...

steddyeddy

I defintaly think some people dong get enough blame for what happened.

Dudess

CommuterIE wrote: »

Maybe I am using the wrong word... can you suggest one? I'm not ashamed but angry when I look back and it brings me down... word for that?

Well as I said, it depends on how you interpret the word. That's only my interpretation of it - and maybe I'm incorrect.

gigino wrote: »

No, Politicians and the political establishment at the time were the state, and shame on them for allowing it to happen / colluding with the r.c.c..

Were politicians raping and beating children? They had a huge role to play for turning a blind eye, but it was very much secondary to that of the actual perpetrators. The church was more powerful than the state too - the state took its cue from it - so how could the less powerful of the two be more to blame?

Easier targets ALWAYS get blamed by some - so much easier I'm sure...

mike65

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

gigino

CommuterIE wrote: »

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

he is entitled to his point of view, especially as he is relatively polite in expressing same.

Dudess

KeithAFC wrote: »

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

Your pretend innocence doesn't fool anyone anymore - maybe it's something to do with the massive red hand in your sig. Or are you going to claim that's just a symbol and you can't see how it would be deemed inflammatory?

CommuterIE

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

Now that is utter rubbish! My parents nor grandparents would EVER condone what happened and I'd say the majority are the same.... it was just the powers that be that allowed this ****e to happen

Dudess

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

Clearly my 94-year-old grandmother, a devout catholic, is as bad as those who raped and tortured the children. Tomorrow I'm gonna tell her go fuk herself.

gigino

Dudess wrote: »

The church was more powerful than the state too - the state took its cue from it -

so you think it was a catholic state run by the r.c. church ?...and it was ok for the politicians to allow this ?

Dudess

gigino wrote: »

so you think it was a catholic state run by the r.c. church ?

Yup.

...and it was ok for the politicians to allow this ?

Please learn how to debate without resorting to a strawman.

Duckworth_Luas

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

No, my parents were busy murdering Jews at Auswitch and Bergen-Belsen respectively.

Pauleta

Dudess wrote: »

I presume you've cut ties with the older generations of your family in disgust at their complicitness?

Narrow that down a tad... Or are you just engaging in your usual attention-seeking sh1t?

Cant say im particularly close to them and every catholic that could see what was happening and ignored it is to blame.

CommuterIE

Pauleta wrote: »

Cant say im particularly close to them and every catholic that could see what was happening and ignored it is to blame.

Thats slightly unfair, WHAT COULD THEY DO??? Thousands reported what was going on to the authorities and they turned a blind eye.... and if you were a teen spreading these stories you would end up in an institution just like those who had "bastard babies"

Dudess

Pauleta wrote: »

Cant say im particularly close to them and every catholic that could see what was happening and ignored it is to blame.

Ah... "every catholic that could see what was happening" - you're narrowing it down at least. Still need to narrow it down - e.g. what age group?

Just looks sectarian tbh... Also, you haven't a ****ing clue how much influence they would have had, whether they were intimidated into keeping their mouths shut... It's wonderful to be able to smugly blame soft targets though...

KeithAFC

Dudess wrote: »

Your pretend innocence doesn't fool anyone anymore - maybe it's something to do with the massive red hand in your sig. Or are you going to claim that's just a symbol and you can't see how it would be deemed inflammatory?

I want to discuss and talk about this poll and this interesting subject. Not my sig or Wolfe Tones sig etc. It doesn't matter.

Pauleta

Dudess wrote: »

Ah... "every catholic that could see what was happening" - you're narrowing it down at least. Still need to narrow it down - e.g. what age group?

Just looks sectarian tbh... Also, you haven't a ****ing clue how much power they had. It's wonderful to be able to smugly blame soft targets though...

People power over-rides everything. If the people who could see what was going on united, our country would of been free of the catholic disease before we did expose them.

CommuterIE

KeithAFC wrote: »

I want to discuss and talk about this poll and this interesting subject. Not my sig or Wolfe Tones sig etc. It doesn't matter.

You aren't welcome here because your past posts, and particularly not in this thread

mike65

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

No, my parents were busy murdering Jews at Auswitch and Bergen-Belsen respectively.

the Germans said oh we never knew about the camps after the war, of course most did. They felt powerless to do anything of course and thats underdstandable, who'd face down the local NAZI unit in a town or village?

The same thing happened here with Catholic Church abuse, the Church didn't have side arms but it did have way of making people dissapear, the Churches were full and the collection plate likewise. In small villages people knew and people said nothing.

Dudess

Pauleta wrote: »

People power over-rides everything. If the people who could see what was going on united, our country would of been free of the catholic disease before we did expose them.

You make it seem so easy. You'd need to actually study Irish society at the time in-depth really before coming to such a conclusion...

KeithAFC

CommuterIE wrote: »

You aren't welcome here because your past posts, and particularly not in this thread

Ok. I will keep out of AH.

gigino

CommuterIE wrote: »

You aren't welcome here because your past posts, and particularly not in this thread

imo he is as entitled to state his view as anyone else. especially as he is more polite than some